Pin or Check?

[MJS]

When doing the technique Delayed Sword (Right hand lapel grab) what is your preference, pinning the hand or using a positional check? There have been discussions about the pros and cons of each, as well as also performing this technique off of a right punch.

So, what is your method and why?

Mike

 

[KenpoTess]

I use a precautionary positional check with the left hand held at solar plex level..
This supports my second line of defense.

 

[Seabrook]

Definitely a pin since the pin and step back controls the attacker's height, width, and depth.
Also, if you don’t pin the hand that grabs, if the opponent lets go, it will cancel most of your action.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[DavidCC]

In Shaolin Kemop, the general rule is, if somebody grabs hold of you, you grab that hand to keep them there. Well, we do have some grab releases but pinning is the usual course.

I look at somebody grabbing me as giving me a gift... :EG:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Pin. Positioned checks are, presumably, placed at a given location in anticipation of an intentional or unintentional response on the part of your opponent (i.e., kick him in da nutz, and IF his hands fly forward as his body bends, you have smoe interfereence between his hands and your head). Delayed sword is a specific response to a specific attack. OUR intent -- as Jamie said, to control the HWD of the opponent -- should take precedence over the woulda-coulda-shoulda that might happen from the opponents body.

Positioned check = planned failure (something outside of our control may happen; be prepared).

Pin = planned success (I will do such a bang up job managing my opponents options, that there will be no events outside my control).

Regards,

Dave

 

[JamesB]

An manipulation (grab+pin) of the wrist causing a misalignment in the attacker's arm, reducing their ability to pull back.

 

[Bode]

An manipulation (grab+pin) of the wrist causing a misalignment in the attacker's arm, reducing their ability to pull back.

I believe you meant to say "A manipulation (grab+pin) of the HAND causes a misalignment in the attackers arm" Pinning his wrist will actually strengthen his ability to pull. Really, try it...

I am all for pinning the hand though. As KB said, our goal is to check HWD.

 

[michaeledward]

Left hand check in the middle zone.

The left foot step back and inward block should clear the opponents right hand, allowing me to create distance. At the yellow belt level, this is appropriate.

If I pin the opponents right hand, isn't that inward block to the arm going to create an orbit with his left that I am trying to avoid?

Isn't the pin going to bring the opponent closer to me?

 

[JamesB]

I believe you meant to say "A manipulation (grab+pin) of the HAND causes a misalignment in the attackers arm" Pinning his wrist will actually strengthen his ability to pull. Really, try it...

I am all for pinning the hand though. As KB said, our goal is to check HWD.

oops my bad, thanks for the clarification

 

[Touch Of Death]

Pin if its a grab. check if its a push or attempted grab. Checking as a plan for faliure is a funny one. I'll have to tell the boys where I train that checking is planning to fail. That kills me!:uhyeah:
Sean

 

[Doc]

When doing the technique Delayed Sword (Right hand lapel grab) what is your preference, pinning the hand or using a positional check? There have been discussions about the pros and cons of each, as well as also performing this technique off of a right punch.

So, what is your method and why?

Mike

In the real world, there is no such thing as a "positional check." That was an idea created for motion-kenpo to compensate for missing information not contained with the framework.

 

[Doc]

Pin. Positioned checks are, presumably, placed at a given location in anticipation of an intentional or unintentional response on the part of your opponent (i.e., kick him in da nutz, and IF his hands fly forward as his body bends, you have smoe interfereence between his hands and your head). Delayed sword is a specific response to a specific attack. OUR intent -- as Jamie said, to control the HWD of the opponent -- should take precedence over the woulda-coulda-shoulda that might happen from the opponents body.

Positioned check = planned failure (something outside of our control may happen; be prepared).

Pin = planned success (I will do such a bang up job managing my opponents options, that there will be no events outside my control).

Regards,

Dave

Well what do you know, he found a computer. See you Sunday.

 

[Doc]

Pin if its a grab. check if its a push or attempted grab. Checking as a plan for faliure is a funny one. I'll have to tell the boys where I train that checking is planning to fail. That kills me!:uhyeah:
Sean

Then you are dead sir.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I hate it when that happens.

 

[Doc]

I hate it when that happens.

You too?

 

[MJS]

In the real world, there is no such thing as a "positional check." That was an idea created for motion-kenpo to compensate for missing information not contained with the framework.

Doc,

Perhaps you could explain how you do this technique. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts seeing that you focus alot on structural alignment, etc.

For me, I've done this technique with both the pin and without the pin, and have had good results. Perhaps 'positional' was not the proper word to use, but when I'm doing it without the pin, I have the other hand up, in the event something else is thrown, such as a left punch.

Mike

 

[bujuts]

This technique is first introduced to our white belts as a step through right punch, though obviously we may elect to illustrate the principles contained within the technique against a grab as well. For myself, if trapping the offending arm is my intention I may be inclined to use an umbilical check, of course depending on what needs to be done.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

Doc,

Perhaps you could explain how you do this technique. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts seeing that you focus alot on structural alignment, etc.

For me, I've done this technique with both the pin and without the pin, and have had good results. Perhaps 'positional' was not the proper word to use, but when I'm doing it without the pin, I have the other hand up, in the event something else is thrown, such as a left punch.

Mike

Well sir, I would love to but there is a problem. This technique is a "hands on" manipulation technique. Writing the physical postures and mechanisms is very difficult, and reading and understanding it is even more difficult. In our Courebook Material specific language is used along with references to mechanisms taught in class. This is also why information intensive material cannot be conveyed through video in distance learning situations.

Simply: First the assault is a flank attack where your right wrist is seized by the attackers right hand forcibly. Your response would be to utilize specific mechanisms of BAM's*, PAM's*, and Indexes, to make yourself immoveable whether pushed or pulled while you quickly identify and access the level of danger.

Than you would pin (Negative BAM) the hand while changing the shape of the metacarpals in his hand, and destroy his bodily structure. Moving to an Index Postion with the hand pinned, thumb leveraged, transition to a 'vertical outward block position' misaligning his arm completly rotating the radial bone. At this point he is at your mercy, neither able to push, or even pull to get away, and is completely vulnerable to a wrist lock takedown if you desire.

All of the above is part of the Default Technique portion known as 'SIA*.' From here we can begin Initial Retaliation. Our Default attacks and traumatizes the set up arm, and misaligns both shoulders. This is followed by a takedown into a Three Point Stance while the fourth point is controlled for a finishing kick.

This is the actual technique that the motion technique is derived from. But as you can read, there are many mechanisms missing from manuals that are only suggested by the material, but never explored or taught. At a higher level the technique is essentially the same but the Indexes are much smaller, and the effects are greatly magnified, along with multiple options.

Last: For those that don't believe there is a pin, they should examine motions Short Form 3 that contains a variation of this technique. Here's a clue. 'No pin, no technique.'

*SIA - Survive The Initial Assault
*BAM - Body ALignment Mechanism
*PAM - Platorm ALigning Mechanism
*Index - Specific physical postures the body must transition through to maximize structure strength, and to ultimately obtain internal energy. Done long enough, the external virtually disappears and the movements are truly 'internalized.'

 

[Doc]

This technique is first introduced to our white belts as a step through right punch,

I guess it just goes to show you how the diversity of the understanding of the base commercial material is truly all over the place. That's why I always say to people, 'Don't make general assumptions about anyone's kenpo but your own.'

 

[bujuts]

Umbilical check...does anyone else use this term? If so, what does it mean to you? I've not heard it outside my own group, so I'm curious as to its universality within the kenpo system as its understood by others.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF