Lone Kimono

Flying Crane

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Ray said:
Aha...Kimono Grab in Tracy's orange must be for a one-hand grab (left hand) to lapel, right? The variation later (5th black according to Tracy's web site) must be for a two-handed grab, right? The EPAK two hand version is called Twin Kimono.

Actually, the Orange Belt Kimono Grab is against a two-handed lapel grab. I don't know what the 5th Black Belt variation is, but the Orange Belt technique is definitely Two-Handed. However, like EPAK's Lone Kimono i believe it would work perfectly well against a one-handed grab.
 

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Flying Crane said:
Actually, the Orange Belt Kimono Grab is against a two-handed lapel grab. I don't know what the 5th Black Belt variation is, but the Orange Belt technique is definitely Two-Handed. However, like EPAK's Lone Kimono i believe it would work perfectly well against a one-handed grab.
Okay, I'll buy that. The EPAK equivalent is called Twin Kimono (two handed grab). It's very much like Lone Kimono (one handed grab).

Gee, I kinda muddied up the water didn't I since the thread is about "lone kimono." I think Lever (with a wrist lock) is a cool variation to the same type of attack.
 

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Flying Crane said:
In case I didn't make it clear, my description in Post #14 was for Lever.

Kimono Grab is the same as EPAK Lone Kimono, but Kimono Grab is against a double grab instead of a single grab. Based on the description in the Opening Post, it appears to be essentially the same up to the Knifehand to the Throat.

We actually continue with a little more, however.

Shuffle forward into the opponent and grab the side of his head with the left hand. Deliver a right elbow-sandwich to the other side of his head.

Pivot to face 6:00 and drop into a reverse soft bow stance. Follow with a right hammerfist back and up, into the opponent's groin.

Finish with a right back kick into his knee and step out to ready.

Gets to be a bit of overkill, but at some point it all becomes optional if necessary.
If you simply used your chopping hand to do the shoulder grab you get the elbow sandwich in much quicker.
Sean
 
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MJS

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Flying Crane said:
Did you see my post, #14. Is this what you needed, or was another technique in question?

Ahh..missed that post. Thats what I was looking for.

Thanks!!:ultracool

Mike
 

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Touch Of Death said:
If you simply used your chopping hand to do the shoulder grab you get the elbow sandwich in much quicker.
Sean

So you are saying grab with the right hand (the hand that delivered the knifehand) and deliver the elbow strike with the left?

Sure, I think that could work. I suppose it would come down to what feels best for the individual.

Really, by the time you have delivered the knifehand the show should be over. Unless you just screwed up and missed everything along the way it should never reach this point anyway.
 

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Sorry, don't do Lone Kimono but we do a variation of Kimono Grab (first technique in the system). Where in the curriculum is this technique?
 

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Flying Crane said:
So you are saying grab with the right hand (the hand that delivered the knifehand) and deliver the elbow strike with the left?

Sure, I think that could work. I suppose it would come down to what feels best for the individual.

Really, by the time you have delivered the knifehand the show should be over. Unless you just screwed up and missed everything along the way it should never reach this point anyway.
No do everything with the right. Left hand provides heel palm for sandwich. And technichaly you could be done playing at the arm break.
Sean
 

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Touch Of Death said:
No do everything with the right. Left hand provides heel palm for sandwich. And technichaly you could be done playing at the arm break.
Sean

So deliver the knifehand with the right, grab with the left and fire the elbow sandwich with the right. That is how we do it. Are you just saying eliminate the shuffle? Sure, if you are close enough, but if not you need to bridge the gap.

Am I following your thought here?
 

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Flying Crane said:
So deliver the knifehand with the right, grab with the left and fire the elbow sandwich with the right. That is how we do it. Are you just saying eliminate the shuffle? Sure, if you are close enough, but if not you need to bridge the gap.

Am I following your thought here?
If you need to chase chase. But grabbing with the right after the chop pulls him down and toward the inward elbow.
Sean
 

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Touch Of Death said:
If you need to chase chase. But grabbing with the right after the chop pulls him down and toward the inward elbow.
Sean

OK, so you are saying chop, immediately grab and pull as you place the left hand on the side of the head, then release the right to deliver the elbow. is this your thought?
 

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Flying Crane said:
OK, so you are saying chop, immediately grab and pull as you place the left hand on the side of the head, then release the right to deliver the elbow. is this your thought?
We have a Bingo!
 

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Touch Of Death said:
We have a Bingo!

Not a bad idea. About a year ago I undertook an extensive housecleaning of the Tracy kenpo that I practice. I eliminated a lot of stuff that I felt wasn't worth keeping and made changes to things that I felt could be better. I am still looking for places to make improvements, so I appreciate the suggestion. I shall have to play with this a bit and see what I think. thank you.
 
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Interesting idea with the grab. I've always just done the shuffle, followed by the elbow.
 

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Blindside said:
Kimono Grab is the equivelent of Twin Kimono (double lapel grab),
And now back to the discussion.... :D

Lamont

Similar in the nature of the attack, but definitely different in execution.


Jamie Seabrook
 

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Flying Crane said:
Not a bad idea. About a year ago I undertook an extensive housecleaning of the Tracy kenpo that I practice. I eliminated a lot of stuff that I felt wasn't worth keeping and made changes to things that I felt could be better. I am still looking for places to make improvements, so I appreciate the suggestion. I shall have to play with this a bit and see what I think. thank you.
At the re-reading of your understanding your left hand simply hooks with an heel palm strike which frees it up to strike something or someone else on that beat just before the elbow strike instead of simply placing it on the side of the head and waiting.
Sean
 

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MJS said:
Interesting idea with the grab. I've always just done the shuffle, followed by the elbow.
It would of course depend on the reaction and posioning at the time of the chop. The cross shoulder grab inward or upwrd elbow strike is probably really only going to happen as an opening act. This probably belongs in the sucker punch section but it could perhaps start as brushing dust off a shoulder.:supcool:
Sean
 
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Thought we could discuss Twin Kimono as well, seeing that they're related techniques.

Twin Kimono-2 hand front lapel grab-push out

1: With feet together, step back to 6 o'clock with left foot into a right neutral bow as your left arm pins your opponents arms, while simultaneously delivering a right upward forearm strike against opponents elbow joints.

2: Immediately shift your left foot counter clockwise to 4 o'clock as you deliver a right back knuckle strike to opponents solar plexus.

3: Follow up with a right inward strike to both arms of opponent, striking them diagonally and down to the left.

4: Deliever a right outward handsword to opponents throat.
 

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MJS said:
Thought we could discuss Twin Kimono as well, seeing that they're related techniques.

Twin Kimono-2 hand front lapel grab-push out

1: With feet together, step back to 6 o'clock with left foot into a right neutral bow as your left arm pins your opponents arms, while simultaneously delivering a right upward forearm strike against opponents elbow joints.

2: Immediately shift your left foot counter clockwise to 4 o'clock as you deliver a right back knuckle strike to opponents solar plexus.

3: Follow up with a right inward strike to both arms of opponent, striking them diagonally and down to the left.

4: Deliever a right outward handsword to opponents throat.

For the Tracy people out there, this sounds very close to Swinging Gate, from Blue Belt curriculum. Actually, I can't think of any differences.
 

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MJS said:
Thought we could discuss Twin Kimono as well, seeing that they're related techniques.

Twin Kimono-2 hand front lapel grab-push out:

interesting that the 'attack' description is a 'push out' thereby allowing the defender to perform the technique. Is this a totally realistic attack though, maybe after the initial shove, would the attacker attempt to regain control by pulling you back in? how would you prevent the attacker from doing this and maintain control at the same time?

MJS said:
1: With feet together, step back to 6 o'clock with left foot into a right neutral bow as your left arm pins your opponents arms, while simultaneously delivering a right upward forearm strike against opponents elbow joints.

It would be interesting to hear from different people here how this transition to neutral-bow is achieved (from standing) or even if this is an important detail.

MJS said:
2: Immediately shift your left foot counter clockwise to 4 o'clock as you deliver a right back knuckle strike to opponents solar plexus.

3: Follow up with a right inward strike to both arms of opponent, striking them diagonally and down to the left.

4: Deliever a right outward handsword to opponents throat.

I would say the technique as described is functional, assuming that the defender has actually managed to pull off the first step#1 and gain control. I think the most important aspect of this technique is the aspects not given great detail here, especially:

1. the nature of the attack, i.e. exactly what is the attacker doing, and why are they doing it - what is their goal after grabbing and 'pushing out'?

In fact I believe the attack would be more realistic if it was written 'push out', then grab and anchor in. I could be wrong of course not totally on-top of this technique.

2. Imagine that the attacker is a someone twice as big and twice as strong. How would the defender step back when someone has aggressively grabbed hold of them? Do we assume that they allow us to always step back? eeeek.

3. what happens when can't step back, what is our response now?

james
 
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JamesB said:
interesting that the 'attack' description is a 'push out' thereby allowing the defender to perform the technique. Is this a totally realistic attack though, maybe after the initial shove, would the attacker attempt to regain control by pulling you back in? how would you prevent the attacker from doing this and maintain control at the same time?

If the attacker changes what he is doing, we need to do the same. Going to another technique would solve this problem.



It would be interesting to hear from different people here how this transition to neutral-bow is achieved (from standing) or even if this is an important detail.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but its no different than a step in any other tech.



I would say the technique as described is functional, assuming that the defender has actually managed to pull off the first step#1 and gain control. I think the most important aspect of this technique is the aspects not given great detail here, especially:

1. the nature of the attack, i.e. exactly what is the attacker doing, and why are they doing it - what is their goal after grabbing and 'pushing out'?

Possibly to pull the person back in. I would think that most people would think the defender is going to want to get away, not keep the attackers hands pinned to them.


2. Imagine that the attacker is a someone twice as big and twice as strong. How would the defender step back when someone has aggressively grabbed hold of them? Do we assume that they allow us to always step back? eeeek.

I've always taught people to never assume that we're going to always, with ease, be able to pull off certian moves. A distraction, prior to the initial move may be necessary. Basically, momentarily give the attacker something else to think about.

3. what happens when can't step back, what is our response now?

See above. We go to another technique.

Mike
 
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