Delayed Sword

R

Rob_Broad

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(front - right hand lapel grab)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00
into a right neutral bow stance facing 12:00, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your
opponent's right hand lapel grab. At the same time position your
left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
further action. (Your block should expose the width of his body.)

2)Immediatly slide your right foot back into a 45 degree cat
stance.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front ball snap kick to your
opponent's groin. (Your opponent's reaction should cause him to
bend forward at the waist.)

4)Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow (facing
12:00), to check your opponent's right knee, as you deliver a
right outward hand sword to the right side of your opponent's
neck. Remember to maintain the position of your left hand as a
precautionary check. Immediatly slide your right hand (after the
strike) to the right wrist of your opponent as a precautionary
check. (Your opponent's response should cause him to fall to the
ground.)
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Rob_Broad

(front - right hand lapel grab)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00
into a right neutral bow stance facing 12:00, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your
opponent's right hand lapel grab. At the same time position your
left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
further action. (Your block should expose the width of his body.)

2)Immediatly slide your right foot back into a 45 degree cat
stance.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front ball snap kick to your
opponent's groin. (Your opponent's reaction should cause him to
bend forward at the waist.)

4)Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow (facing
12:00), to check your opponent's right knee, as you deliver a
right outward hand sword to the right side of your opponent's
neck. Remember to maintain the position of your left hand as a
precautionary check. Immediatly slide your right hand (after the
strike) to the right wrist of your opponent as a precautionary
check. (Your opponent's response should cause him to fall to the
ground.)

Well sir, I gues it's you and me.

Consider these comments to promote discussion.

Is this a lapel grab as stated, or an ATTEMPTED lapel grab?

If it is an ATTEMPTED lapel grab, then why are we stepping back into a cat stance (almost always wrong) when we've already established the distance initially when we "blocked" his wrist?

If this technique is essentially the same as your interpretation of "Sword of Destruction," (mirror image) why are you stepping forward into a cat stance there and not here?

If this technique is actually a lapel grab, then the lesson plan idea is contradictory and differs philosophically and physically from similar models.

It seems you have the last lesson plan written by Ed Parker for this technique. I recognize all the versions, but remember now, none of them tell you HOW. They are to make you think. recognize how this version really doesn't make sense if you allow all of it to be taken literally. Only ideas for you to work with.

Respectfully.
 
OP
K

Kenpo Wolf

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Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works
 

Bob Hubbard

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I just checked my book and the descriptions the same as Robs, and asked my GF whos training in Kenpo, and her response was "both" After some further discusion, I guess its an attempted lapel grab that may also be a roundhouse, and you modify accordingly. :confused: I think I remember doing it against a roundhouse though....

Was this technique taught in both Parker and Tracy Kenpo, and if so, has it been modified over the years as things were tweaked?

At this point, I'll let the experienced folks take a few whacks at it.
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I just checked my book and the descriptions the same as Robs, and asked my GF whos training in Kenpo, and her response was "both" After some further discusion, I guess its an attempted lapel grab that may also be a roundhouse, and you modify accordingly. :confused: I think I remember doing it against a roundhouse though....

Was this technique taught in both Parker and Tracy Kenpo, and if so, has it been modified over the years as things were tweaked?

At this point, I'll let the experienced folks take a few whacks at it.

Well I won't address Tracy material because I have no expertise in their curriculum. But all this does is point out what I've said all along. There is no consensus on Motion-Kenpo technique execution, and there is not supposed to be. However the lesson plan does exists for a reason, and if an instructor chooses to execute the technique as a punch, push, or round off flip flop, that is an I.D. (instructor decision)

But, doing so violates the lesson plan of Parker's Web of Knowledge and it's progressive attack consideration themes. This technique is labeled a lapel grab for a reason. It is designated a "dead hand" technique by design, and it is supposed to force instructors to formulate a method to deal with the dead hand seizure. Teaching it any other way violates the W.O.K. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it just is.

I am accustomed to seeing techniques of this type changed to accomodate the inability to understand how to deal with "grabbinbg" techniques. Instructors turn most of these techniques into "attempted grabs" because it is easier to teach. Unfortunately doing so, in addition to violating the W.O.K. also deprives students of the opportunity to learn to handle actually being grabbed. The mechanisms to extricate oneself from seizure type assaults are not a part of Motion-Kenpo curriculum, although it exists in the more capable instructors personal skills, and should be taught.

Once that is addressed, the we can discuss the execution.
 

Les

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Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

It seems to me that blocking a right roundhouse with a right inward block isn't very logical. Your right hand has a lot of work to do in a very short space of time.

Also, when in the lapel grab, the left hand 'orbiting' into you shouldn't be a problem as you should have pulled your opponent off balance when you stepped back. Stepping back also 'moved the target', so you should be out of effective range of the left hand.

If not, we have a fix for that situation, in our 'what if' toolbox.

Les
 
OP
P

ProfessorKenpo

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Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

I'm not sure where those 3 Kenpo schools are in No. Cal. (I'm assuming that's where you are by your profile) are but I've always been taught this technique for a Lapel Grab. We are also taught it as an alternate for an attempted grab and a punch, but initially for the grab. Your left hand becomes a pinning check to the arm of your opponent. I also teach Snapping Twig for a push but with an alternate of a grab if need be should the arm be in a different position than that for Lone Kimono. Myself, I've don't even wait for the grab or the punch to get that close, I drop to a cat stance from a natural and kick em in the Jimmy from the get go, but I don't teach it that way because the beginner needs to learn the principles and idea of the technique first.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
OP
F

FLY

Guest
Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz


Was this technique taught in both Parker and Tracy Kenpo, and if so, has it been modified over the years as things were tweaked?

At this point, I'll let the experienced folks take a few whacks at it.

As far as letting the experienced folks take a few whacks at it, I'll pass...;)
But to answer your question Kaith...yes it is taught in Tracy's Kenpo as well.
In Tracy's Kenpo it is taught as a defense against a right punch.

1. Left foot steps back to 6:00, Right foot simutaneously draws back to cat and you execute a right inward block to inside of right punch.

2. Right foot snap kick to the opponent's groin

3. Right foot plants down between the opponent's legs as you deliver a right chop to the right side of the opponent's neck/throat.

Oh ya....your left hand covers during the whole process ;)

FLY

:asian:
 
OP
H

headkick

Guest
Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

Our modification is to trap the bad guys wrist. Two things happen then; 1) I can change the target of the inward block. I will sometimes practice shooting it as a punch to inside of the upper arm. 2) the step back into RNB while pinning cancels width and depth.

have a small student, maybe a woman, try delayed sword as written against a big guy and tell the guy not to let go. It can be very hard, particularly for people at the skill level where it's taught, to have a smaller person be effective with that inward block to the radial nerve.

Just my thoughts...

R
 

Blindside

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How are you hitting the radial nerve? Is the opponent grabbing you with a fist held palm down to the floor. Usually when we do lapel grabs the grabber's hand is at least in a vertical position, and they are trying to twist to a palm up position to secure the lapel grab.

Is your pin converting the vertical hand to a horizontal hand? And where are you hitting the radial? Right above the elbow?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just not seeing this motion. Maybe if you were hitting the ulnar nerve, but not the radial.

Help me out here.

Lamont
 

Sigung86

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Originally posted by FLY



As far as letting the experienced folks take a few whacks at it, I'll pass...;)
But to answer your question Kaith...yes it is taught in Tracy's Kenpo as well.
In Tracy's Kenpo it is taught as a defense against a right punch.

1. Left foot steps back to 6:00, Right foot simutaneously draws back to cat and you execute a right inward block to inside of right punch.

2. Right foot snap kick to the opponent's groin

3. Right foot plants down between the opponent's legs as you deliver a right chop to the right side of the opponent's neck/throat.

Oh ya....your left hand covers during the whole process ;)

FLY

:asian:

Hey Fly!

Wanna have some fun with this technique? Try this:

s1. Left foot back to a neutral bow
s1. Right inward block to or slightly before the attacker's right wrist.
s1. Left hand check. You are using it as a punch defense and not a lapel grab, otherwise I would do a left hand slap-check to my left shoulder.
2. Slid your left foot up to your right without going to a cat
3. Using your "forward momentum" right snap kick to groin or area of the pubic bone.
s4. Step down your right foot to 12:00 neutral bow
s4. Right sword hand to right side of attacker's throat.

Just try it and see what you think ...

Dan Farmer
 
OP
F

FLY

Guest
Originally posted by Sigung86



Just try it and see what you think ...

Dan Farmer

O.K.....**stands up to try it out in the living room** hmmmm, I think I like it :p
I'm definately gonna have to try it out with an opponent in class next time (wife won't uki for me anymore :D :confused: )
It feels to me that by sliding your left foot up to your right instead of retreating even more, that this variation would work better for me. I have long legs and occasionally I will step too far back/away, unless the opponent continues to come forward after the block, I find myself having to reach for or out of range of the target sometimes. Your idea would definately solve that problem.
I also like the increased power in the kick from the forward momentum.....and if you're close, the kick can be easily changed into a knee.
Although I haven't tried it yet (with an opponent) 'Arching Blades' feels that it would fit as a good extension to this tech also:
s4. right sword hand to right side of attackers throat
s5. left chop to same spot
s6. right elbow up to attacker's chin
s7. right claw to face.

Thank you for the 'food-for-thought' Sigung

FLY.
:asian:
 

Sigung86

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Hey Fly!

Glad you liked it. Things like that can definitely assist in re-inventing yourself in a better form. Always happy to be of help.

However ... Please don't call me sigung, if you don't mind. That is a handle that I have used for years as a forum handle. I only know one person that carries Sigung as a nomer. That is Sigung Stephen LaBounty.

Thanks,

Dan Farmer
Originally posted by FLY



O.K.....**stands up to try it out in the living room** hmmmm, I think I like it :p
I'm definately gonna have to try it out with an opponent in class next time (wife won't uki for me anymore :D :confused: )
It feels to me that by sliding your left foot up to your right instead of retreating even more, that this variation would work better for me. I have long legs and occasionally I will step too far back/away, unless the opponent continues to come forward after the block, I find myself having to reach for or out of range of the target sometimes. Your idea would definately solve that problem.
I also like the increased power in the kick from the forward momentum.....and if you're close, the kick can be easily changed into a knee.
Although I haven't tried it yet (with an opponent) 'Arching Blades' feels that it would fit as a good extension to this tech also:
s4. right sword hand to right side of attackers throat
s5. left chop to same spot
s6. right elbow up to attacker's chin
s7. right claw to face.

Thank you for the 'food-for-thought' Sigung

FLY.
:asian:
 
OP
F

FLY

Guest
Originally posted by Sigung86

However ... Please don't call me sigung, if you don't mind. That is a handle that I have used for years as a forum handle. I only know one person that carries Sigung as a nomer. That is Sigung Stephen LaBounty.

Thanks,

Dan Farmer

I don't mind at all...sorry about that. I'm assuming then that you would prefer Dan?

FLY.
:asian:
 

Sigung86

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Originally posted by FLY



I don't mind at all...sorry about that. I'm assuming then that you would prefer Dan?

FLY.
:asian:

Fly ... You may call me what my Mother and Father called me...

Sir. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just kidding. Dan would be absolutely fine.

Dan
 

Les

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Originally posted by Sigung86



call me what my Mother and Father called me
Dan

Dan,

Until I started school I thought my name was Jesus Christ....

All I ever heard from my parents was,

'Jesus Christ...don't touch that'.

'Jesus Christ, stop that noise'.

'Jesus Christ, go out and play in the yard'.

'Jesus Christ, gimmee a break will you'.


:rofl:

Les
 

Sigung86

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Very good! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

Originally posted by Les



Dan,

Until I started school I thought my name was Jesus Christ....

All I ever heard from my parents was,

'Jesus Christ...don't touch that'.

'Jesus Christ, stop that noise'.

'Jesus Christ, go out and play in the yard'.

'Jesus Christ, gimmee a break will you'.


:rofl:

Les
 

Bob Hubbard

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Cute guys... :)

Lets hop back on topic huh? Thanks!


Heres a question....where/how does 'marrage of gravity' apply?
 
OP
R

Rainman

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Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Cute guys... :)

Lets hop back on topic huh? Thanks!


Heres a question....where/how does 'marrage of gravity' apply?

Breath in -breath out- gravitational marriage is at work.

:asian:
 
OP
K

Kirk

Guest
K, to break things down further, and get really anal, let me ask
this. You step back to a neutral bow, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block. The power principle associated
with this minute part, as I "know" it to be, is that you step back,
and while twisting with the hips into a true neutral bow, you
execute the block. Anyone do it this way? I have trouble getting
into it all, proper, before the hit/grab comes.
 

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