Lone Kimono

[jfarnsworth]

Well I'm going to put up what I have used for Lone Kimono. As always if there are any differences, endings, inserts, change ups in any way please feel free to post. We can also talk about the attack or the technique in general.

6. LONE KIMONO (front left hand lapel grab)
1. Standing naturally, step back with your left foot (base, then pivot) when your opponents grabs your lapel with his left hand. Simultaneously pin his left hand to your chest with your left hand and deliver a right upward strike against his left elbow just above the joint thus causing the elbow to break as you pivot into a right neutral bow.
2. Then circle your right arm over and down (counter clockwise) with an inward downward strike against opponent's left (elbow to) forearm. Make sure that your opponent's left arm is driven downward diagonally to your left.
3. After cocking your right hand slightly toward you with your right palm up, deliver a right outward handsword to the right side of opponent's neck or throat, stance throughout is still a right neutral bow. Cock your left hand at your solar plexus, ready to check when needed.
4. Front crossover cover out towards 6 o’clock.

Just to let anyone know who is reading this it may vary from the list you are currently using. There are a couple of notes "I" changed for "me" on this technique. I am very apprehensive about putting this up on an open forum with gentleman much higher than myself with more knowledge which could rip this description apart. BUT on this forum I like to talk kenpo and hear kenpo which is why I still put it up.:asian:

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Well I'm going to put up what I have used for Lone Kimono. As always if there are any differences, endings, inserts, change ups in any way please feel free to post. We can also talk about the attack or the technique in general.

6. LONE KIMONO (front left hand lapel grab)
1. Standing naturally, step back with your left foot (base, then pivot) when your opponents grabs your lapel with his left hand. Simultaneously pin his left hand to your chest with your left hand and deliver a right upward strike against his left elbow just above the joint thus causing the elbow to break as you pivot into a right neutral bow.
2. Then circle your right arm over and down (counter clockwise) with an inward downward strike against opponent's left (elbow to) forearm. Make sure that your opponent's left arm is driven downward diagonally to your left.
3. After cocking your right hand slightly toward you with your right palm up, deliver a right outward handsword to the right side of opponent's neck or throat, stance throughout is still a right neutral bow. Cock your left hand at your solar plexus, ready to check when needed.
4. Front crossover cover out towards 6 o’clock.

Just to let anyone know who is reading this it may vary from the list you are currently using. There are a couple of notes "I" changed for "me" on this technique. I am very apprehensive about putting this up on an open forum with gentleman much higher than myself with more knowledge which could rip this description apart. BUT on this forum I like to talk kenpo and hear kenpo which is why I still put it up.:asian:

The way I do this technique is pin the opponents hand grabbing, stepping back to 6:30 with left leg. Simutaneously as the opponents arm straightens execute right inward strike to elbow region as you settle into a rear horse(this finalizes the body torque adding to the effect of the strike). Roll(strike) the top of the opponents arm(across the radial nerve) collapsing the arm toward your stomach followed by a chop to opponents throat/neck. Adjustments/positioning is usually done through shuffling then cover out or follow up.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

I see your point. When looking at checking the opponent your checking the height zone only. When taking the arm downward diagonal your checking height, width, & depth zones simultaneously. When the opponent's arm goes down it opens a nice line directly to the throat.

 

[Kirk]

VERY effective (for me) in teaching "contouring".

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
The way I do this technique is pin the opponents hand grabbing, stepping back to 6:30 with left leg. Simutaneously as the opponents arm straightens execute right inward strike to elbow region as you settle into a rear horse(this finalizes the body torque adding to the effect of the strike). Roll(strike) the top of the opponents arm(across the radial nerve) collapsing the arm toward your stomach followed by a chop to opponents throat/neck. Adjustments/positioning is usually done through shuffling then cover out or follow up.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

For a significant number of reasons that won't work.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by Doc
For a significant number of reasons that won't work.

Don't be silly Doc! The technique is for a single lapel grab(opponents left grab to victum right shoulder). Essentially two variations the one in question is executed when the opponent grabs. Reaction is immediate at the onset.

Lastly, it has worked for me on several occasions and that's what counts.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
Don't be silly Doc! The technique is for a single lapel grab(opponents left grab to victum right shoulder). Essentially two variations the one in question is executed when the opponent grabs. Reaction is immediate at the onset.

Lastly, it has worked for me on several occasions and that's what counts.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

I guess that's all that matters.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
... Simutaneously as the opponents arm straightens execute right inward strike to elbow region as you settle into a rear horse(this finalizes the body torque adding to the effect of the strike). Roll(strike) the top of the opponents arm(across the radial nerve) collapsing the arm toward your stomach followed by a chop to opponents throat/neck...
Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

Looks like when you collapse the arm you might bring the guy down into shooting a single leg takedown while your in a side horse. This is just my observation though. If you have my left arm pinned then drop my height zone almost in line with your leg I would take the shot. I'm not challenging just giving an idea is all.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Looks like when you collapse the arm you might bring the guy down into shooting a single leg takedown while your in a side horse. This is just my observation though. If you have my left arm pinned then drop my height zone almost in line with your leg I would take the shot. I'm not challenging just giving an idea is all.

The essence behind the strike at the elbow is hyper extension of the elbow (also effecting radial nerve at elbow). Yes, you must maintain the pinning of opponents grab hand on the elbow strike after that the follow up strike/raking motion sets the last strike to the throat neck region. The opponent trying to "shoot your leg" would be the last consideration for the opponent. Remember you have hyper extended the elbow, struck the radial nerve again (top of the forearm) followed by the chop to the throat/neck region(knockout).

Therefore if the opponent lasted through the technique the possible "shoot" would be highly unlikely with a useless arm and gasping for breath.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

All true. I understand your point of view on the technique. However when I said someone could shoot the takedown it was after you had collapsed the arm down. Looking at just checking the height of the attacker, when collapsing my left arm down into your body my reaction would be my free arm (being my right) is wrapping around your leg and I'm driving into you. This is all that I was trying to state.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
All true. I understand your point of view on the technique. However when I said someone could shoot the takedown it was after you had collapsed the arm down. Looking at just checking the height of the attacker, when collapsing my left arm down into your body my reaction would be my free arm (being my right) is wrapping around your leg and I'm driving into you. This is all that I was trying to state.

Very good point if one strikes ineffectially at the beginning stages. However that is not the Kenpo way.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
The way I do this technique is pin the opponents hand grabbing, stepping back to 6:30 with left leg. Simutaneously as the opponents arm straightens execute right inward strike to elbow region as you settle into a rear horse(this finalizes the body torque adding to the effect of the strike). Roll(strike) the top of the opponents arm(across the radial nerve) collapsing the arm toward your stomach followed by a chop to opponents throat/neck. Adjustments/positioning is usually done through shuffling then cover out or follow up.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

So the way I read this is that you do not come under the arm to break or hyper extend you come from the side within an inward thrusting block from point of origin (or do you cock your hand up and do an inward hammer strike?) as your still holding his hand. You then strike his "elbow region" with your fist or forearm(ouch! if his arm doesn't straighten out, because often people grab with a "locked" bent elbow). And this strike isn't prefaced with a twisting of the hand you grab to account for any alignment issues (AK grabs and turns to align the arm for the break..."at least the way I learned it"...lol ya knew that was coming). And how is the attackers depth checked? What is to stop the guy from grabbing you with the left, but stepping with the right? He will negate that inward strike because his depth isn't checked since your coming from the side and your right (fist or forearm strike) is gonna eat some pointy elbow...Also your face may eat that right cross that's coming around (my opinion only...)

Beyond that, when you come down with that shot on his forearm, if you get that far, his head will crash down on you (based on your radial shot) faster then you can get that chop off...

Is "the way you do this technique" actually a technique called "lever version A" in the Tracy's system? I have the tech against an opponent video tape saw exactly what you described while looking for Lone Kimono to reference what you've written here. If so, it seems to presuppose that the attacker's arm grab is an already straightened arm and that you won't eat that unintentional headbutt that this technique initiates...

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:

Cancelling HW&D....it's not just for breakfest anymore...

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
So the way I read this is that you do not come under the arm to break or hyper extend you come from the side within an inward thrusting block from point of origin (or do you cock your hand up and do an inward hammer strike?) as your still holding his hand. You then strike his "elbow region" with your fist or forearm(ouch! if his arm doesn't straighten out, because often people grab with a "locked" bent elbow). And this strike isn't prefaced with a twisting of the hand you grab to account for any alignment issues (AK grabs and turns to align the arm for the break..."at least the way I learned it"...lol ya knew that was coming). And how is the attackers depth checked? What is to stop the guy from grabbing you with the left, but stepping with the right? He will negate that inward strike because his depth isn't checked since your coming from the side and your right (fist or forearm strike) is gonna eat some pointy elbow...Also your face may eat that right cross that's coming around (my opinion only...)

Beyond that, when you come down with that shot on his forearm, if you get that far, his head will crash down on you (based on your radial shot) faster then you can get that chop off...

Is "the way you do this technique" actually a technique called "lever version A" in the Tracy's system? I have the tech against an opponent video tape saw exactly what you described while looking for Lone Kimono to reference what you've written here. If so, it seems to presuppose that the attacker's arm grab is an already straightened arm and that you won't eat that unintentional headbutt that this technique initiates...

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:

Cancelling HW&D....it's not just for breakfest anymore...

JB you make some good points and raise some interesting questions that beg to be answered.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
So the way I read this is that you do not come under the arm to break or hyper extend you come from the side within an inward thrusting block from point of origin (or do you cock your hand up and do an inward hammer strike?) as your still holding his hand. You then strike his "elbow region" with your fist or forearm(ouch! if his arm doesn't straighten out, because often people grab with a "locked" bent elbow). And this strike isn't prefaced with a twisting of the hand you grab to account for any alignment issues (AK grabs and turns to align the arm for the break..."at least the way I learned it"...lol ya knew that was coming). And how is the attackers depth checked? What is to stop the guy from grabbing you with the left, but stepping with the right? He will negate that inward strike because his depth isn't checked since your coming from the side and your right (fist or forearm strike) is gonna eat some pointy elbow...Also your face may eat that right cross that's coming around (my opinion only...)

Beyond that, when you come down with that shot on his forearm, if you get that far, his head will crash down on you (based on your radial shot) faster then you can get that chop off...

Is "the way you do this technique" actually a technique called "lever version A" in the Tracy's system? I have the tech against an opponent video tape saw exactly what you described while looking for Lone Kimono to reference what you've written here. If so, it seems to presuppose that the attacker's arm grab is an already straightened arm and that you won't eat that unintentional headbutt that this technique initiates...

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:

Cancelling HW&D....it's not just for breakfest anymore...

You are misunderstanding the technique. to grab the lapel the attackers arm is outstretched. That is when you start the execution of the techique, not after the opponents arm is bent. Otherwise "lone kimono" or "lever" will not work.

In Kenpo Karate, the technique is executed on the initial attempt to grab not afterwords.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
You are misunderstanding the technique. to grab the lapel the attackers arm is outstretched. That is when you start the execution of the techique, not after the opponents arm is bent. Otherwise "lone kimono" or "lever" will not work.

In Kenpo Karate, the technique is executed on the initial attempt to grab not afterwords.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

Dave,

I luv ya man, but that ain't quite right... If he's got hold of you and you are stepping back to complete a slap-check wrist hold and hitting the elbow... That's not an attempt... That's a full bore grab. If you are relying on your technique as a defense against an "attempted" anything, you will fail more often than not.

Dan

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
You are misunderstanding the technique. to grab the lapel the attackers arm is outstretched. That is when you start the execution of the techique, not after the opponents arm is bent. Otherwise "lone kimono" or "lever" will not work.

In Kenpo Karate, the technique is executed on the initial attempt to grab not afterwords.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

I must be misunderstanding it...It was the first technique I ever learned in Kenpo Karate as a just turned 16 yr old highschooler back in 1986. In fact at the time, in the NCKKA, it was called Kimono Grab, not Kimono attempt to Grab. And I must admit at that time there were several important principles and concepts left out with their variation. The "lever" on the other hand looks like Snapping Twig in its rudementary stages of development.

I have attempted to grab my spouse (without her knowing, she hates me doing techs on her) as well as done the attack in the air and physical act of grabbing a person with my arm completely stretched out seems very unnatural, there is a natural bend in the arm that remains on a real grab.

Beyond that any thoughs on the cancelling of zones, if the attacker steps with the right while grabbing with the left and were you doing a hammering or thrusting strike on the inward? Also, since you use the two techniques interchangabley (even through they are VERY different) does that mean you gotten rid of one of the most famous Kenpo techniques, the original Kimono Grab or Lone Kimono?

jb:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
You are misunderstanding the technique. to grab the lapel the attackers arm is outstretched. That is when you start the execution of the techique, not after the opponents arm is bent. Otherwise "lone kimono" or "lever" will not work.

In Kenpo Karate, the technique is executed on the initial attempt to grab not afterwords.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

Sorry but I believe you are misunderstanding our interpretation. Of course you are entitled to your own but, the technique is not an attempted grab. Additionally the technique calls for the atacker to "pull" facilitating the "bent arm" position. This technique is a single arm interpretation of "Mace of Aggression" which pulls in. Executed properly, the technique is quite functional, bent arm or not.
Although it makes goos sense to avoid being seized if possible, to move prematurely would akin to training for attempted pushes not grabs. The "stiff arm" possibility is covered later in "Conquoring Shield," but it too is a grab and not an attempt.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
I must be misunderstanding it...It was the first technique I ever learned in Kenpo Karate as a just turned 16 yr old highschooler back in 1986. In fact at the time, in the NCKKA, it was called Kimono Grab, not Kimono attempt to Grab. And I must admit at that time there were several important principles and concepts left out with their variation. The "lever" on the other hand looks like Snapping Twig in its rudementary stages of development.

I have attempted to grab my spouse (without her knowing, she hates me doing techs on her) as well as done the attack in the air and physical act of grabbing a person with my arm completely stretched out seems very unnatural, there is a natural bend in the arm that remains on a real grab.

Beyond that any thoughs on the cancelling of zones, if the attacker steps with the right while grabbing with the left and were you doing a hammering or thrusting strike on the inward? Also, since you use the two techniques interchangabley (even through they are VERY different) does that mean you gotten rid of one of the most famous Kenpo techniques, the original Kimono Grab or Lone Kimono?

jb:asian:

To JB and Doc,

In Kenpo Karate, we do not execute the technique on a bent arm (elbow). The execution is done before the opponent grabs and pulls to the bent arm position. In other words the opponent must extend the arm to grab. That is why we pin (lock up) the oponents hand then step back to augment the strike. The difference between our approaches is when do we engage the technique. Obviously then that changes the technique.

Regarding the original Kimono Grab we still do it but the old fashioned way. However if the opponents remain bent we dirctly go to Covering Talon. But thats a scenerio closer to your bent elbow technique.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Dave,

I luv ya man, but that ain't quite right... If he's got hold of you and you are stepping back to complete a slap-check wrist hold and hitting the elbow... That's not an attempt... That's a full bore grab. If you are relying on your technique as a defense against an "attempted" anything, you will fail more often than not.

Dan

Hi Ho Dan,

I don't do "slap check" like my AK brothern! Everything is based on initial attempt not a fully bent arm scenerio. I would not use Lever on a aggressors bent arm.

Dave Simmons

 

[Katie Simmons]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
So the way I read this is that you do not come under the arm to break or hyper extend you come from the side within an inward thrusting block from point of origin (or do you cock your hand up and do an inward hammer strike?) as your still holding his hand. You then strike his "elbow region" with your fist or forearm(ouch! if his arm doesn't straighten out, because often people grab with a "locked" bent elbow). And this strike isn't prefaced with a twisting of the hand you grab to account for any alignment issues (AK grabs and turns to align the arm for the break..."at least the way I learned it"...lol ya knew that was coming). And how is the attackers depth checked? What is to stop the guy from grabbing you with the left, but stepping with the right? He will negate that inward strike because his depth isn't checked since your coming from the side and your right (fist or forearm strike) is gonna eat some pointy elbow...Also your face may eat that right cross that's coming around (my opinion only...)

Beyond that, when you come down with that shot on his forearm, if you get that far, his head will crash down on you (based on your radial shot) faster then you can get that chop off...

Is "the way you do this technique" actually a technique called "lever version A" in the Tracy's system? I have the tech against an opponent video tape saw exactly what you described while looking for Lone Kimono to reference what you've written here. If so, it seems to presuppose that the attacker's arm grab is an already straightened arm and that you won't eat that unintentional headbutt that this technique initiates...

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:

Cancelling HW&D....it's not just for breakfest anymore...

This technique is all about the direction of the force your opponent is exerting. In order to grab you, your opponent must first project forward to reach you before bending his arm to pull you in. It is at the point in time when your opponent has just touched you that you employ lever (we don't come straight in from the side, rather we angle up a bit on the initial strike). His arm will be more or less straight. By the time he has bent his arm to pull you in, it is too late for lever and you'll have to use something else. Also, that hypothetical headbutt is not even an issue if you use a raking motion rather than coming straight down onto his forearms. True, your opponent's upper body will jerk slightly forward, but his head will actually simultaneously snap back, leaving his throat open for your chop. Any other problems you have found with my father's explanation of the technique can be neutralized simply by adapting to your opponent's position.