The Vice & Delayed Sword

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
I wanted to discuss these two techniques, as they are similar in nature. One of course is a Tracy technique and the other Parker.

The Vice: Right Punch.

Right inward block-front snap kick to opponents groin.

Two knife hand strikes to opponents collar bones, driving opponent back.

Shuffle forward- 2 double finger spears to opponents eyes.

Cover.


Delayed Sword: Lapel Grab.

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your lapel with their right hand.

2. Step your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right inward block to your attacker's right inner wrist. (At the same time, your left hand should be checking at solar plexus level as a precautionary check against any possible action.)

3. Immediately slide your right foot back to a transitional cat stance. Execute a right front snap kick to your attacker's groin. [This will cause your attacker to bend forward at the waist.]

4. Plant your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow, checking off your attacker's right knee, as you simultaneously execute a right outward handsword to the right side of the attacker's neck.


Now, it has been discussed that this technique can also be done off of a right punch. So, keeping the same footwork, blocks, etc., change the nature of the attack to a right punch. If we look at both of the techniques, they are similar, but slightly different. In this video clip, we see Clyde addressing this tech. from a grab as well as a punch. We see what happens when the height, width and depth is not checked. Approx. 5 min into the clip, is when you should see the punch being addressed.

So my question is: Do you feel that both of these techniques work well from a punch? How do you, if at all, defend against the possibility of the opponent moving forward for the tackle?
 

michaeledward

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
82
Concerning the Vice ... I am assuming two inward hand swords to the collarbones ... which means my arms are crossed. I don't like that. How do I get my left hand high-enough to execute that strike correctly. Also, I'm not certain we have elimiated enough weapons to move inside like that. A good counter might be Cross of Death.

But, I don't really know the technique.


I do not like the technique Delayed Sword against a punch. While the individual basics will work, I think that further training teaches other actions against a weapon in motion; moving into the attack, moving outside the attack.

Remember, the danger in Delayed Sword is the left hand. If we execute this technique against a right punch, the focus for danger moves to the right hand.


As for a defense against a tackle; the groin kick should do something to stop it. And, I think the kick could become a more effective deterant by altering the target from the groin to the sternum; move that target up, and you will alter the reaction of the bad guy. If he is bending forward for a tackle, we get the added benefit - a little bit of him/a little bit of me.
 
OP
M

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
Concerning the Vice ... I am assuming two inward hand swords to the collarbones ... which means my arms are crossed. I don't like that. How do I get my left hand high-enough to execute that strike correctly. Also, I'm not certain we have elimiated enough weapons to move inside like that. A good counter might be Cross of Death.

But, I don't really know the technique.

The sword hand strikes are more of a driving motion, rather than inward or downward. After the initial block, as you're landing forward, the collarbones are being hit.


I do not like the technique Delayed Sword against a punch. While the individual basics will work, I think that further training teaches other actions against a weapon in motion; moving into the attack, moving outside the attack.

Remember, the danger in Delayed Sword is the left hand. If we execute this technique against a right punch, the focus for danger moves to the right hand.

If the left was to come, grafting to say, Sword of Destruction is an option.


As for a defense against a tackle; the groin kick should do something to stop it. And, I think the kick could become a more effective deterant by altering the target from the groin to the sternum; move that target up, and you will alter the reaction of the bad guy. If he is bending forward for a tackle, we get the added benefit - a little bit of him/a little bit of me.

Good points. Having a solid stance plays a part as well IMO.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
OK, with the Vise, the tech isn't taught with double handswords to the collar bones, altho I could see that as a viable option. Instead, the heel of the knifehands of both hands are placed together, palms up, fingers of both hands pointed outwards, forming a sort of clamping wedge. This wedge is driven into the throat, the hands then clamp together around the throat as you withdraw, making a sort of ripping out thru the throat. The attack thru the eyes is a sort of rolling rake, ripping the fingers thru starting with the pinkies, rolling thru all the fingers, and ending by driving the thumbs into the eyes.

We also have Delayed Sword in Tracys. We do it against a punch, so we block with an inward block. We follow with a front kick to the groin. The real purpose of this kick is to draw his guard low, so we can finish him with the handsword to the neck.

I personally like both of them for the punch.

As far as the tackle goes, I think the both address this issue in how they are arranged.

With Vise, if he lunges for the tackle, he is just throwing himself off of your vise-clamp to his throat.

With Delayed Sword, the kick to the groin causes a reflexive action where he will stop and withdraw the hips to protect his groin. Sort of nullifies an attempt to lunge in.
 

Jim Hanna

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
55
Reaction score
3
Tactically, I teach the Vise as a technique when you are up against a wall and in tight quarters (perhaps chairs/people on both sides of you). It gets my students thinking more about tactics and environment.

Why would anyone stand in the center of the clock and not move when attacked and if the environment permitted it? Does not make sense to me.

Jim
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
113
Location
Dana Point, CA
OK, with the Vise, the tech isn't taught with double handswords to the collar bones, altho I could see that as a viable option. Instead, the heel of the knifehands of both hands are placed together, palms up, fingers of both hands pointed outwards, forming a sort of clamping wedge. This wedge is driven into the throat, the hands then clamp together around the throat as you withdraw, making a sort of ripping out thru the throat. The attack thru the eyes is a sort of rolling rake, ripping the fingers thru starting with the pinkies, rolling thru all the fingers, and ending by driving the thumbs into the eyes.

We also have Delayed Sword in Tracys. We do it against a punch, so we block with an inward block. We follow with a front kick to the groin. The real purpose of this kick is to draw his guard low, so we can finish him with the handsword to the neck.

I personally like both of them for the punch.

As far as the tackle goes, I think the both address this issue in how they are arranged.

With Vise, if he lunges for the tackle, he is just throwing himself off of your vise-clamp to his throat.

With Delayed Sword, the kick to the groin causes a reflexive action where he will stop and withdraw the hips to protect his groin. Sort of nullifies an attempt to lunge in.

In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.

Spread love,

Dave
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
Tactically, I teach the Vise as a technique when you are up against a wall and in tight quarters (perhaps chairs/people on both sides of you). It gets my students thinking more about tactics and environment.

Why would anyone stand in the center of the clock and not move when attacked and if the environment permitted it? Does not make sense to me.

Jim

Hey Jim,

would you care to elaborate a bit here, what exactly you are thinking of? thx!
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.

Spread love,

Dave

cool, i'll make a note of that.
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
848
Location
Spokane Valley WA
In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.

Spread love,

Dave
We are taught that a groin shot "is" an attemt to break the pubic bone, and screw a couple of inches penatration. The target is always the spine; the groin is just in the way.:angel:
Sean
 

CoryKS

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
183
Location
Olathe, KS
Is the neutral bow the same thing as a fighting horse stance? I'm not familiar with the term. thx
 
OP
M

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
OK, with the Vise, the tech isn't taught with double handswords to the collar bones, altho I could see that as a viable option. Instead, the heel of the knifehands of both hands are placed together, palms up, fingers of both hands pointed outwards, forming a sort of clamping wedge. This wedge is driven into the throat, the hands then clamp together around the throat as you withdraw, making a sort of ripping out thru the throat. The attack thru the eyes is a sort of rolling rake, ripping the fingers thru starting with the pinkies, rolling thru all the fingers, and ending by driving the thumbs into the eyes.

Gotta love those variations! :) Personally, I like the method you describe above. I'll have to give that a shot!
 

Kenpojujitsu3

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
9
I was almost tempted to try this "Vice" technique until Mike ruined it for me and said it was a Tracy technique. Being a Parker guy I can't condone such foolishness and.....wait a minute....that doesn't make any sense...:)
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
I was almost tempted to try this "Vice" technique until Mike ruined it for me and said it was a Tracy technique. Being a Parker guy I can't condone such foolishness and.....wait a minute....that doesn't make any sense...:)

Stay over on your side, or I'm Tellin'!!
icon12.gif
 
OP
M

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
I was almost tempted to try this "Vice" technique until Mike ruined it for me and said it was a Tracy technique. Being a Parker guy I can't condone such foolishness and.....wait a minute....that doesn't make any sense...:)

Oh come on..you know you want to come to the dark side! :) LOL!

Stay over on your side, or I'm Tellin'!!
icon12.gif

LMAO!!
 

HKphooey

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
2,613
Reaction score
18
Location
File Cabinet
Gotta love the Vice. Anyone seen Tubbs? :)
Like Mr. Hanna said, Vice is good for "back against the wall" or being sandwiched between attackers.
 

Attachments

  • $dj3a.jpg
    4.5 KB · Views: 313

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
113
Location
Dana Point, CA
Is the neutral bow the same thing as a fighting horse stance? I'm not familiar with the term. thx

Used interchangeably in some lineages, it's sort of like...if you took a side fighting horse, snuck your rear foot around the COG towards the front of your body, so you didn't have a straight line going back. Lots of advantages, including not having to reach as much around yourself to deploy rear hand & foot, better stability in more directions, etc.

If I can find any good pics, I'll post 'em. Toe-heel line looks less like "l', and more like "/".
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
113
Location
Dana Point, CA
We are taught that a groin shot "is" an attemt to break the pubic bone, and screw a couple of inches penatration. The target is always the spine; the groin is just in the way.:angel:
Sean

Lovin' the angel innocence. Shoveling upwards in a lifting fashion does a nice job of squishing things what don't like squishing, but is a less-effective vector for driving the pelvis out from under the attacker. Shooting that foot into the pubic symphasis in a plane line parallel to the floor, aiming for the rear of the guy...sweet watching their upper body snap forward, face twisted in pain and surprise, as their lower half leaves out the back door.

We used to refer to this as "blow the guys pelvis out from under him". Used it once bouncing; my hands were full of bar glass while I was arguing with some weasel about closing time, and he opted to swing his bottle at me. Awesome manipulation of his distancing in the attack. Hit him so hard, his feet slid out from under him, and he was vomiting on the way down.

Hm. Bottle. Vomit. Kinda makes me want a beer.

Spread more love and more pain,

Dave.
 

michaeledward

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
82
Is the neutral bow the same thing as a fighting horse stance? I'm not familiar with the term. thx

CoryKS ... as near as I can figure out, the fighting horse stance is a bit narrower in width than the neutral bow. There are long debates about these two stances, and how they are interpreted .... I get dizzy reading them.

In a neutral bow, as I understand it, there is a more exposed center line, but there is also better access for the rear weapons.

Others will begin ranting now ;)
 

CoryKS

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
183
Location
Olathe, KS
Used interchangeably in some lineages, it's sort of like...if you took a side fighting horse, snuck your rear foot around the COG towards the front of your body, so you didn't have a straight line going back. Lots of advantages, including not having to reach as much around yourself to deploy rear hand & foot, better stability in more directions, etc.

If I can find any good pics, I'll post 'em. Toe-heel line looks less like "l', and more like "/".

Thanks for the description, I think I understand now.
 

Jim Hanna

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
55
Reaction score
3
Hey Jim,

would you care to elaborate a bit here, what exactly you are thinking of? thx!


I teach my students that the first thing to do when attacked is just move. I don't care which angle you move to, just move. You do not have time to recognize that you are being attacked, analyze the attack, run through your mental inventory of self defense techniques, choose one, and then execute it. If your inventory of techniques is large enough, you will never find yourself in a position that you are unfamiliar with. You will always be able to deliver a weapon to a target, so just move.

If you do not move from the center of the clock you are probably in color code white ( relaxed and unaware). If so, its too late, even if you are a black belt. However, there may be occasions when you may find yourself in an environment that prohibits you from moving. (For example, a telephone booth--for those old enough to remember what those are). In those occasions, techniques like The Vise teach a student how to respond.

Jim
 

Latest Discussions

Top