Mixed Martial Arts Sparring

MJS

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Firstly, I have no idea of what you're talking about with your maths there, you seem to jump all around the place with no context to the numbers you're using... try as I might, I can't make 2-3 hours a day, for 3-5 days equal 120 hours... at most (5 days of 3 hours each), it's coming out as 15 hours.... hmm.

Next, speaking as someone who changes the weapon focus each month, I'd point out that it's a rotational basis, not just constantly changing weapons. Then, I'd further state that, choosing a weapon, such as sword (one of our most commonly trained weapons), it takes an incredibly long time to "learn" it properly. My guys are under no illusions that, having had some small experience with sword, they then have "learnt" it.

You have a teacher who got their 1st Dan in three months? And you think that, if a martial art isn't learned within a month of diligent practice, it's a bad teacher? Really? Gotta tell you, you'd be lucky to cover all the material we have in our system, let alone really learn it, within 10 years. I'm not touching the Shodan in three month thing...

Honestly, Alex, I just don't think you get what is meant by "learning" a martial art when we say it. You seem to think it's just remembering physical moves... but even then, there's no way. With the timeframe you're looking at, all you'd be able to do, really, is a substandard approximation of them. One of the systems I am involved in has a total of 24 physical techniques for sword (12 long sword, 7 short sword, and 5 two sword)... with one of the guys tonight, I was still correcting the very first technique after a year and a half of his training it. He knows what the technique is, but he hasn't learned it yet. There's a very big distinction.

Nice post as usual Chris, but our points are going to be lost in translation. He either doesnt want to get it, or just cant get it.
 

Gnarlie

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So Alex what you mean when you say an art can be learned in days, is that it can be learned in 3-5 full days of 24 hours each. Lets be pessimistic and say 5 Days x 24 hours = 120 Hours. To learn a full art. Sorry, but I'm afraid that is nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate why:

I learned WTF Taekwondo (allegedly one of the quickest, easiest styles to attain BB in) pretty much 1 on 1 with a 5th Dan instructor. I spent 1.5 hours, 3 nights a week training 1 on 1 with him, and probably another 6 hours per week training alone at home. I also spent countless hours in between reading up on techniques and current thinking, and analysing motions. I'm no slow learner (I'd say I'm pretty quick compared to most people), and he's no slouch teaching. It took me 4 years to achieve 1st Dan at a standard that I am proud of. That's, hmm... lets see:

1.5 hours x minimum of 3 nights per week = 4.5 hours / week
+ 6 Hours / week training alone = 10.5 hours per week
10.5 x 50 weeks (one year with 2 weeks holiday) = 525 hours / year
525 Hours x 4 Years = 2100 Hours just on physical training to get to 1st Dan

That's the equivalent of 87 full 24 hour days. So it would be more accurate to say you can learn the basics of an art in months. 3 of them. Without sleeping, eating or doing anything else.

And that's not including weekend camps and seminars, squad training, competition and conditioning training (at least another 1000 Hours on weekends), nor does it include research and learning time spent analysing motions and visualisation methods. I'm not including weight training either.

You, my dear boy, are full of it. In 120 Hours, you've not even understood the motion correctly, nevermind learned it physically. I would strongly recommend not making statements of this nature in a public forum if you wish to retain any credibility as a MA instructor, or have any kind of future career. Once you've said it, it's out there forever. It may already be too late.
 
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MJS

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So Alex what you mean when you say an art can be learned in days, is that it can be learned in 3-5 full days of 24 hours each. Lets be pessimistic and say 5 Days x 24 hours = 120 Hours. To learn a full art. Sorry, but I'm afraid that is nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate why:

I learned WTF Taekwondo (allegedly one of the quickest, easiest styles to attain BB in) pretty much 1 on 1 with a 5th Dan instructor. I spent 1.5 hours, 3 nights a week training 1 on 1 with him, and probably another 6 hours per week training alone at home. I also spent countless hours in between reading up on techniques and current thinking, and analysing motions. I'm no slow learner (I'd say I'm pretty quick compared to most people), and he's no slouch teaching. It took me 4 years to achieve 1st Dan at a standard that I am proud of. That's, hmm... lets see:

1.5 hours x minimum of 3 nights per week = 4.5 hours / week
+ 6 Hours / week training alone = 10.5 hours per week
10.5 x 50 weeks (one year with 2 weeks holiday) = 525 hours / year
525 Hours x 4 Years = 2100 Hours just on physical training to get to 1st Dan

That's the equivalent of 87 full 24 hour days. So it would be more accurate to say you can learn the basics of an art in months. 3 of them. Without sleeping, eating or doing anything else.

And that's not including weekend camps and seminars, squad training, competition and conditioning training (at least another 1000 Hours on weekends), nor does it include research and learning time spent analysing motions and visualisation methods. I'm not including weight training either.

You, my dear boy, are full of it. In 120 Hours, you've not even understood the motion correctly, nevermind learned it physically. I would strongly recommend not making statements of this nature in a public forum if you wish to retain any credibility as a MA instructor, or have any kind of future career. Once you've said it, it's out there forever. It may already be too late.

QFT!!!! This is where I was going, when I mentioned real life. Work, family, kids, you know..all that stuff outside of the dojo...lol. Sure, if I was planning on being a fighter, yeah, sure, then I could see eating, breathing and sleeping training.

Fantastic post! Couldn't agree more! :)
 

clfsean

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So Alex what you mean when you say an art can be learned in days, is that it can be learned in 3-5 full days of 24 hours each. Lets be pessimistic and say 5 Days x 24 hours = 120 Hours. To learn a full art. Sorry, but I'm afraid that is nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate why:

I learned WTF Taekwondo (allegedly one of the quickest, easiest styles to attain BB in) pretty much 1 on 1 with a 5th Dan instructor. I spent 1.5 hours, 3 nights a week training 1 on 1 with him, and probably another 6 hours per week training alone at home. I also spent countless hours in between reading up on techniques and current thinking, and analysing motions. I'm no slow learner (I'd say I'm pretty quick compared to most people), and he's no slouch teaching. It took me 4 years to achieve 1st Dan at a standard that I am proud of. That's, hmm... lets see:

1.5 hours x minimum of 3 nights per week = 4.5 hours / week
+ 6 Hours / week training alone = 10.5 hours per week
10.5 x 50 weeks (one year with 2 weeks holiday) = 525 hours / year
525 Hours x 4 Years = 2100 Hours just on physical training to get to 1st Dan

That's the equivalent of 87 full 24 hour days. So it would be more accurate to say you can learn the basics of an art in months. 3 of them. Without sleeping, eating or doing anything else.

And that's not including weekend camps and seminars, squad training, competition and conditioning training (at least another 1000 Hours on weekends), nor does it include research and learning time spent analysing motions and visualisation methods. I'm not including weight training either.

You, my dear boy, are full of it. In 120 Hours, you've not even understood the motion correctly, nevermind learned it physically. I would strongly recommend not making statements of this nature in a public forum if you wish to retain any credibility as a MA instructor, or have any kind of future career. Once you've said it, it's out there forever. It may already be too late.

Nice...

As Yoda would say... "Applied has been the 2x4 of Truth..."
 

Josh Oakley

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I believe, in another thread, it was held that a person training 5-6 hours is rare. Let's say the ideal is then 2-3. Days, to me, refers to around 3-5, in their entirety, which converts out being between 72 and 120 hours.

Your frame of reference is unspecified.

It converts to 6-15 hours a week.
In 1 month, that would be 24-60 hours.
In 2 months, that would be 48-120 hours.
In 3 months, that would be 72-180 hours.


If you take the ideal training time of 2-3 hours a day, you end up with roughly 2 hours of training, everyday for between a month or two.
Let me get this straight: if you train for 2 hours a day, you will have trained for 2 hours a day?
Wow. That's deep.

Seriously, all you managed to communicate with this sentence is that 2=2.


There are people who attend schools on these boards who only spend a month of time per weapon before transitioning to the next.

Who? Importantly, what does this imply?

IF you can't learn a system with 2-3 hours of diligent practice every day, for a month, than you just have a poor teacher at that point.

Let's see a list of people who wouldn't be able to an entire system to a student in 60-90 hours (that would be 2-3 hours every day for thirty days):

Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Danny Inosanto, Robert Trias, William Chow, James Mitose, Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Ron Chapel, Ernie Rayes, Ernie Rayes Jr., Ip Man, And every great teacher you've ever heard of, ever

I have had a teacher who received his 1st dan after only 3 months of dilligent study. The same man took over 40 years to receive his 6th dan, in the same system.

Who? What's his name?



But even this comes back to a question of what it means to 'learn'. All I'm talking about is memorization of theory and technique, not it's application or execution, and depth of skill as I think is the standard many of you are using.

Oh, ok. Then you're still wrong. It takes more than a month to even do that with a complete system in any martial art I've ever heard of. And a teacher that would attempt to teach the entire system, both theory and technique, in a month, is a pretty bad teacher. Because that teacher will have given the student a false sense of confidence, and not drilled in anything the student can actually use in a pinch. He will have overloaded the student. That's terrible Pedagogy in any physical art.


I am now entirely convinced you shouldn't teach. You don't know the martial arts as well as you think you do, and your teaching concepts are flawed and dangerous.
 

elder999

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I don't think he'll be coming back, but, in case he does, here's a little kyokushin kumite:






The first time I got a good, solid shin kick n the thigh, I was probably 15 years old. Hurt like hell-like to make me sick to my stomach-but I kept fighting.

I didn't die. :lfao:

Of course, I expect that for whatever reason, you're ignoring me, Alex, but I'll again suggest paying the GMU Kyokushin club a visit-I'm sure you'll find them to be friendly, welcoming people.....
 
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I have practiced with them before, I am not ignoring anyone, I just don't read this thread as often as I probably should. My apologies, though it has been about a year since I saw them. I'll pay them a visit again, is that where JKS trains in the area?

To learn something does not mean to know it. 'Learning' to me is the rote memorization of a given subject. You guys mistake my usage of the word 'know' for others like proficiency, or mastery, or even insight. I might know the ABC's, that doesn't give me the insight as to why the letter thorn became removed, and where and when it is still appropriate to use it.

To answer his name Josh Oakley, it is Master Khan. His paranoia makes me look like nothing, so please forgive me for not releasing further information. He has retired, however.

I would agree it impossible to truly KNOW or master an art in anything less than the time it takes for one to do so. And that is usually years. But you can know (in the sense of knowing about, as in, if you were given a diagram of it on a test, and asked to identify it, you could). Think anatomy, you may know what the thigh bone is, but that doesn't mean you know the mechanics behind what makes it function, and essential to our hips. Likewise, you can learn all the moves in a solid day's worth of practice, but good luck trying to use it all. I believe that's the complaints about seminars I've seen most; too much info, too little time to soak it all in.

Some people are like sponges though. It took me a week to learn all the kata for the first ITF style I learned, it was 2 years before my skill with those kata was enough to promote me to a 1st dan in Chung Do Kwan.

But for the record, there is no one on this board I have chosen to ignore. I just can't answer everyone's posts. I am apologetic, I will try to do better.
 

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If you have learned soemthing you have internalized it to some degree. What you are reffering to when you say "learned", Zenjael, is mindless puppetry.
 

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The Martial Art Styles, altogether used in this video (elements from each style we have respectively learned) are; Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Moo Duk Kwan, World Trade Federation Tae Kwon Do, International Tae Kwon Do Federation, Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu, Okinawan Karate, Muai-Thai, Aikido, Hapkido, Jiujitsu, Krav Maga, Acujutsu, Shishi Baguazhang, Yin-Style Baguazhang, Wing-Chun, and American Kenpo.


I only saw 80's style point fighting going on there. Freestyle Karate kind of thing.
If thats what you are aiming for, then great, get into some competition while you are young.

I would like to see you guys get padded up and go full contact, with takedowns (after all, whats Bagua without entering/sweeps/throws etc)
Are you interested in taking what you have to the next level?
You have some good flexability, some quirky timing/distancing, almost everytime you retreated you could have entered - Thats the small mans Bagua, You have to get in..

Do you feel you are stagnating, where can you go with this, what are your future goals?
 
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Zenjael

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If you have learned something you have internalized it to some degree. What you are reffering to when you say "learned", Zenjael, is mindless puppetry.

Most of our drills, I guess under that frame of mind, would be mindless. But you refer to 'mindless' as a bad thing. I used to wonder what it meant to incorporate a martial art into yourself, and eventually, to return the influence later through your own stylistic tendencies, within the art, and if it catches on, is taught, and progressed... it has helped the art to evolve and grow, and thus, the practitioner has completed the circle. M.Khan has 3 schools, at least, which I know of which exist based off his teachings, using his forms, and combinations. But now I understand that even when one is influencing martial ats to such a degree is has become necessary for you to continue it (When MK stopped teaching, he effectively halted over 200 people's training, permanently, and he knew it too. Hence why when his students who still wanted to hone Chung do Kwan went to TKD Academy, even myself, he was not angry. In his own words, he left his students little choice.

But while we should be mindless in our training, you can actually witness the stylistic differences between me in 2008, and 2010. If you want to see the height of Chung Do Kwan learning I have, it was enough to place me in 2nd place at a forms division, where two of the three individuals judging were from the first person who went's form. I might be bitter, since in my youth it was my goal to always win a MA tourny as Gautama had, in his day... but something else happened. Before then I had a lot of trophies, everytime I've helped host a tournament, or judged, or reffed, or demod and so on, we just stock up the **** for wins. That bothers me- while I agree that 'tournaments' offer a great opportunity to communicate with others cross style, and whom you normally wouldn't, I also think that section of the tournament should be only demonstration, not competition. And demonstration for the sake of promoting the style, not winning some stupid plastic icon. And I do consider them stupid, I've thrown all my trophies out. After they had handed out the awards to each of us, the person who placed first approached me, and told me that he believed I deserved the trophy more. The same ref's who judged our katas were who judge that age division when we spar. Would you trust their judgement? I didn't, and don't. If the winner had the integrity to say that to me, I would prefer that over any trophy. I had a valuable learning experienec that day, several- another good one was in the sarcastic knife I did (with steak knives at the behest of a fellow practitioner who didn't think I'd actually carry my promise out) I effectively flunkied out. I was alright with that, I had never competed with a weapon form, and I never will again. I feel, at least with knives, it defeats the purpose as an ace up your sleeve... when you display the ace for the world to see. I don't mind speaking about weapon practice, but knivework are just one of those skills I only share with people who are close to me. Most people from Khan's are like that in terms of weaponry. I had minimal training there, but it was enough to set the groundwork for me to later pick knives up as my choice for arsenal.

To some degree. To me, I can fight respectively using the style of Chung Do Kwan, Krav Maga, Muai Thai, WTF/ITF TKD, Shotokan, and so on. Each of these arts look as how they were conveyed to me, though may differ from school to school. In my experience, the word learned has not translated in martial arts to actualization, and that's across the board. Most of us learn the majority of the art 90% before 1st dan, and the remaining 10% after it. That was a generalization, but it isn't far from what I've experienced; the bulk of what constitutes the art is before the black. But I know few who actually can implement from beginner to black, all the techniques in the forms therein for their fighting. I split practitioners into generalized categories; initiate, knowledgeable, skilled/experienced, master, above (founder/grandmaster).



To answer Josh, I hail from a system originally where we just didn't refer to our teachers by their first names. I know M. Khan probably would have shat a brick if any of his students reffered to him outside of his position as their teacher, and superior. I've never felt the need to be insubordinate. I spent my time sitting in the corner for being fidgety, or so on as children can be, but I sobered up in my art, and much later, here I am. I kinda have a stick up my *** when teaching, though I try to temper any seriousness with humor. I think humor is essential to teach martial arts as also a path to have fun on also. A lot of teachers forget that people join cause it's fuuuuuuuun. And they ignore it.

I only saw 80's style point fighting going on there. Freestyle Karate kind of thing.
If thats what you are aiming for, then great, get into some competition while you are young.

I would like to see you guys get padded up and go full contact, with takedowns (after all, whats Bagua without entering/sweeps/throws etc)
Are you interested in taking what you have to the next level?
You have some good flexability, some quirky timing/distancing, almost everytime you retreated you could have entered - Thats the small mans Bagua, You have to get in..

Do you feel you are stagnating, where can you go with this, what are your future goals?

I actually have been considering this... and as such have been praciticing ensuring both accuracy and a quirk M. Khan has where no matter how closed or strong your arms, he could get through your guard. It was weird. I'm fairly certain it was a modified punch utilizing a spear hand through whatever gap there was. If it wasn't for the fact he'd them ream you, we'd prolly all feel the force of his strike seperating our arms enough to slide his strike through, and once past our hands, then torque it. I will probably try to implement that and see how he feel when next we meet, and if I ever get to spar with him. M.Khan is kinda the teacher who's sitting atop the mountain, enjoying his time to himself. But people who are teachers can't stop. It's like an addiction for people who truly are born to do it.

You have a very skilled eye. I believe around 6 bagua practioners have commented on the video, only you and oaktree actually recognized it for it being small man bagua, and I was very happy to have oaktree's input. Both of us have been drawn to similar styles, though I would probably say his is more authentic than mine. I am very happy to converse with another person who is recognizant of the differences height demands on bagua in fighting. Thank you for alieviating some of the despair I had been feeling haha. I would be more than happy to post a video of us practicing, though I would have to say I will probably be using another person as the participant. While a skilled fighter, I am not enjoying the breaks every 30 seconds because of his smoking habits. Even when I was a straight up stoner I had better lungs and cardio than him, so I'm not sure what's going on there. No worries though, while a good fighter, there are a lot from the system he and I came from. Before I went to the school he hailed from, I was used to there being 5... maybe 6 people out of a school of 50 who could fight. Let's just say you didn't get your black belt until you had your trial by blood, and it wasn't fun. At the 4th straight minute, with another fighter each minute, the test quickly morphs from an examination, to an initiation. And everyone who had ever passed, and still came to the school, was there to watch on the sides, and be there for the person testing as others had them. Loyalty was stressed, and well, I guess I'm just drawn to that quality of the lion.

While I realize I digress; your eye has also picked out what a lot of others didn't, the 1980s format for point sparring. This is a point sparring format, but converted to continuous. I would like to say the reason M. Khan did this with his school is to allow for a cleaner restart. I think he noticed, as I'm sure many did, that when unfamiliar with our customs, or stressed, if you extended your glove to tap their's to give them the 'it's ayt, we're good, let's have fun' vertical fist bump a LOT of chinese practitioners react to the extension at first... by thinking it's a strike. There is no way to couch this, as it is rare people don't get what one is doing, and their reactions are so variable. I try to make sure when I do it my fist extends slowly, and obviously, so its registered by them as best as possible as motion, deliberate, but not with any threat.

Alec, and those of his modified Chung do Kwan style (which now, unfortunantely includes a heavy range of throws from aiki-jiujitsu) are not people I enjoy getting close to encounter. Against people who I am relatively certain will not be able to retain their base I do not mind entering, but on one occasion Alec attempted a throw with a grip that tore my bicep from my arm. Combined with a week later a light rap to my clavicle from the taijiquan expert I train with (though he will never say that himself... even when he's taught classes of hundreds of all ages, and is younger than myself) and was knocked out (he was unaware that my heartrate is below 50 beats per minute) so I have since learned that, for my own safety, the small man's bagua does not work for me all the time. The problem, I believe, is due to a clashing of wanting to meet the attack head on, and stop it, while other training advises evasion. The problem, really, is that I just haven't taken the time to ponder out how to get around those problems, though I have ideas which I'll say while answering the next question you asked. It's like you know how to do it, when not to do it, and that works for you. All that's left is actually putting it outside of theory and practice. Sadly, I have no sparring classes presently, so there is little opportunity to implement techniques I feel I need to work on toward actual combat application.

What are my plans for the future, I am hopeful it will be acceptable for me to do this in a 3 part. Because in the next 6-12 months I will be going to basic, my focus right now is recovering from my recent illness and lethargy. I'm hoping by the time I go to basic I'll be able to do 100 pushups in a sitting, hopefully with 1:30. 100 situps, 1:30. 100 crunches 1:00, and as many jumping jacks, squats, and frog hops as I can. Until out of basic I will be focusing instead of on fighting and forms and moreso on technique and speed (presumably the military will tear down what I have and give me what it wants, I am fine with this; way I see it as the first martial art which will give me a gun I don't have to pay for first, hah.

For me, my martial arts is defined by the practical, for me, not just others. I have short term goals, such as techniques I am focusing on (currently push techniques. I have a roommate who was a lineman in high school, and he hasn't lost a pound of his 300 or so girth since then. I figure if I can throw either him or the 275 pd. aikido practitioner I train with, and I'll be good for both escapes, and grounding for the military, if it's needed. As they're both over 6.5 feet the sheer size imbalance I hope should force rectify my difficulty getting around the length of people's size. I don't have issue with mass (since bagua takes advantage of that) but length has become more concerning of late against our wing chun practitioner. The middle term goals are to re-learn all the kata from my teachers where possible. This would be... a lot of forms, but as I have already learned them, and a lot are still in my muscle memory from rote repetition (for example, I have difficulty explaining the movements of ki cho hyung but can fall into sync with my eyes closed. It's kind of funny. If not careful, and not paying attention, when relying on muscle memory to cognizantly reteach me the movements the techniques can end up sloppy (in the past this was an issue, as muscle memory not only memorizes the general movement and sequences, but also the general mistakes you make, so it's a bit like learning from an old tape of yourself which is slowly losing it's ability to play. If not paying attention... which is difficult as the goal is to not think about the form to recall it, save its start initiating move to get the process going. I estimate between the 7 systems I would like to 're-collect' so to speak, there are about 70 forms. I estimate it'll take 6 months. Any longer and I'll be dissapointed with myself, since I did kinda get a dan for each of the systems, so since I've passed before there is no reason not to, now. Obviously the palm changes from Bagua will be more difficult for me, as my teacher has passed, though it was his recommendation I pursue yin style. I will be thinking on it while in the military.

The style of JKD does not exist. Upon further study of the history of TKD I have come to realize that mostly what we emulate from our teachers, they themselves did often mirror-imaging until back to the creator of the art, and trying to keep it as original as possible. There was a time I agreed with this, but not now. When I learned how Jhoon-Rhee taught Bruce Lee his high kicks, and Bruce Lee Jhoon Rhee's punches, I begin to see that what we see as 'JKD' and Chung Do Kwan are far more similar than is actually noted. They do differ, as they each opted to choose a different base. Bruce Lee retained his wing-chun base, broadening the stances to allow for the kick, while Jhoon Rhee stayed by his Taekyon roots. The verticle punch was reverted to the korean, and shotokan form where it is horizontal to create more surface area. I am not sure why he did this, switching it from verticle to horizontal, but I will say it directly led to the creation of a one-inch punch utilizing both the horizontal, and diagonal form of the strikes.

When it occurs to me that I can respectively fight in Chung Do Kwan, or any of the styles I feel comfortable (I will only say I can respectively fight in that system when I have become able to utilize 80% of the system in fighting, at will, without obscuring or crossing styles). While practicing Chung Do Kwan I vowed I would not perform my 3rd dan style of WTF and Tang Soo Do until I had re-earned my black, from the ground up.

I kept that vow, and it ultimately led me to consider martial arts as philosophical styles of a kind, in that they follow logic in how they operate. If person does A, I will do B. They are expecting C, and so on. I am good at logic, so fighting is easy, especially because of how bagua allows the slightest reangling of the strike to miss entirely with next to no effort on our part.

In the end, however, I still feel martial arts to be comprised both of the art we learn, and what makes us unique. We all in the beginning look like the art taught to us, a gifted few become so skilled that in time, the art comes to look like them, and it is what people will seek to learn, as that form of the art. JKD, to me, and Chung Do Kwan, should be considered jointly created by both men, due to the nature of how both could not exist, at all, without the other's teachings.

Because of this, it has occurred to me that any of the styles which have a founder, attempt to retain how it was originally. I consider everyone to have a martial art style they are attempting to learn to fight in, but have another style which is just the techniques they feel comfortable using, across the entire range of their learning, and is the style which, ultimately, will pour back into the style they practice as they once make it their own. In Chung Do Kwan I've noticed the inverse occur; normally people start looking completely different, and gradually work towards looking the same. at M'Khans we all began looking the same (not me) and ended up, once with enough skill and degree of comfort, not only integrating every technique we had learned from M'khan, but others he had either not specifically taught as a part of either system, or they had created. Innovation of form was encouraged at khan's, innovation of technique was not.

Eventually I will bring together, from the arts I have learned once ready which utilizes the circular movements of Bagua and TKD together to generate substantial force, while executing techniques in a straight line, with the agression I have learned in krav maga, combined with power kicks of Muai Thai, throws of Jiujitsu, join and nerve-locks of Hapkido. The style will emphasize strikes which double as blocks, and the inverse, with redirection of oncoming blows used to move the attack to a more desirable location. Effectively, it should turn their attack into a move which is beneficial toward the defender. It will use a lot of elbows and knees, as I have found with the fighting stance people tend to extend their arms and keep it tight. It's a simple matter to guide their punch, and then take control by catching their hand under the point of my elbow, and using constant movement, and sensitivity of balance to retain control over the center of both our now shared gravity, and retain the punch. I emphasize it so not only be reaction, but when it is, it strikes first. I will probably end up switch the style from closed fist, to open, as I personally favor the palm and strikes utilizing the parts of the hand not indirectly exposing body structure without the meat to protect it.

I intend for it to be grounded through Chung Do Kwan, with a stance altered from Bagua where the arm wards the face and other across the midsection. Time will tell how it will ultimately turn out, I am predicting that, because if there was noconcern from me toward the wellbeing of my attacker (I will not hurt someone unless it is warranted, and asked for, such as if they deliberately try to bodily harm me.

So Alex what you mean when you say an art can be learned in days, is that it can be learned in 3-5 full days of 24 hours each. Lets be pessimistic and say 5 Days x 24 hours = 120 Hours. To learn a full art. Sorry, but I'm afraid that is nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate why:

I learned WTF Taekwondo (allegedly one of the quickest, easiest styles to attain BB in) pretty much 1 on 1 with a 5th Dan instructor. I spent 1.5 hours, 3 nights a week training 1 on 1 with him, and probably another 6 hours per week training alone at home. I also spent countless hours in between reading up on techniques and current thinking, and analysing motions. I'm no slow learner (I'd say I'm pretty quick compared to most people), and he's no slouch teaching. It took me 4 years to achieve 1st Dan at a standard that I am proud of. That's, hmm... lets see:

1.5 hours x minimum of 3 nights per week = 4.5 hours / week
+ 6 Hours / week training alone = 10.5 hours per week
10.5 x 50 weeks (one year with 2 weeks holiday) = 525 hours / year
525 Hours x 4 Years = 2100 Hours just on physical training to get to 1st Dan

That's the equivalent of 87 full 24 hour days. So it would be more accurate to say you can learn the basics of an art in months. 3 of them. Without sleeping, eating or doing anything else.

And that's not including weekend camps and seminars, squad training, competition and conditioning training (at least another 1000 Hours on weekends), nor does it include research and learning time spent analysing motions and visualisation methods. I'm not including weight training either.

You, my dear boy, are full of it. In 120 Hours, you've not even understood the motion correctly, nevermind learned it physically. I would strongly recommend not making statements of this nature in a public forum if you wish to retain any credibility as a MA instructor, or have any kind of future career. Once you've said it, it's out there forever. It may already be too late.

My apologies for the bad math. I am le terrible at it; language is more of my forte, and less in how linguistics work, and moreso how the flow and structure can be made to more efficiently express messages. You'd think that not exactly the most useful of techniques, but there's a lot of free work to be had with students he either have written too much, cannot write, or haven't at all. It's why I can produce such massive volumous texts (and which I apologize for the verboseness of). The writing I have on here is not very good, as it is stilted from constantly altering, and checking the language I am using to couch it as martial artists tend to do. Understanding our art requires a heightened sense of honor, which is defined as being what is right. If we don't do what is right, we are taught we will die, and out of that concern, a lot of MA people can jump the gun on how people actually feel, jumping to conclusion. A good example of this was Bill Mattocks mistakenly having missread a post of mine as insulting isshin ryu, when I believe I said something completely different. I didn't need to do a re-check of what I had written, because I simply apologized and reittered that I will not criticize styles on this board, and that the missreading was my fault for having poorly worded the sentences. In the non-fiction I write, I attempt to put as many interpretations of a sentence as possible without garbling it up. This can leak over to my other writing, though I hadn't thought it did. Apparently when I write as I do for this forum... it comes out. So, my apologies. I'll work on that also lol.

That being said, I can back up every technique I talk about with both how to do it, not in just one style, but if it's in TKD, I can probably give you it's equivalent, and demontrate it in at least 6 of its surviving styles. I would have my 275 lb. aikido friend do any Oh Do Kwan, which I am slowly teaching him in addition to his chung Do Kwan, because his size effectively neutralizes me unless I am for either vitals or pressure points. I am lucky he is not a non-responder like me, or he would be one very bad mofo to deal with. Fortunately, he's xtian, and has the heart of a puppy, and as far as I can tell, 0 illwill.

Great that it took you 4 years. Does that legitimize your training? Does it mean that other people who took shorter, it de-legitimizes? It took Bruce Lee months to transfer the kicks from Taekyon to his own personalized style of martial art, which is all WTF effectively is, with hand techniques thrown in rfom Subak and possibly the Chinese Kempo which was drawn on to form what would be the punches in Tang Soo Do. Bruce Lee utilized Wing Chun as a base to operate off of, because he understood that no martial art was the end all be all, and that anything can be improved if looked in the proper way, because nothing is perfect. Thing about that; even after 19 years, even when others tell me I do it right, I still blanket assume I do the technique wrong so I never stop working on it. The only one which readily comes to mind I am having difficulty with is keeping my Muai Thai from the Lion-style roundhouse I have seen. It's effectively a round house to the neck where instead of making an executing strike, it pulls the person toward the ground. And I don't think I'd criticize Bruce Lee's degree of technicality, especially when he was far more successful than I can probably dream to be. But then again, he had Ip Man, who I am assuming based upon legend was just as skilled a teacher as M. Khan, though I think my own teacher more open minded as he accepted children. Can you imagine Bruce's skill had he been accepted when first a child? (I have heard variations where he told to come back when older, and others where he was accepted either a little later, or later that year). I think TKD, if on the branch of WTF style which draws from traditional korean arts, is an essential for every martial artist to learn, but not stay with. The reason is, apart from muai thai a few other styles, TKD is the art to go if you want a very strong kick, fast, without expending too much energy. You say it took you 4 years to get to 1st dan, in my experience the fighting ability of most WTF practitioners 3rd dan is equivalent to the 1st dan of most Chung Do Kwan schools I have purchanced to witness. Perhaps your teacher was an exception to that, they are out there, and they are who ensure the art actually stays such, instead of devolving into a sport. If you want to watch out for martial arts which don't work practically, it is those which are phased out and become 'sport'. Other people who practice MA tend not to take it seriously.

So by my calculation, if you were to run off how M.Khan's was, to attain the degree of skill with your master (based off my own experience with MDK and WTF teachers in the D.C., NOVA, and southern Maryland area, that was present in every student at M.khan's, probably would take you about 3x as long unless you are taught by somebody of M.Khan's calibur. Please correct my math if off, I know many WTF schools have expected waiting periods before you could test again. I do not doubt that your teacher was skilled himself, and an able teacher... but there are some people who are not good at teaching, it is their gift.

It was not that he made the students awesome, it was that he could show the students how to bring what made them good, out of themself, and learn how to hunt for more within. It was his insight which is how his students would dominate at tournaments, before they stopped competing publicly. You just couldn't stop their aggression, which at M.Khan's school was even higher than the military personel's I trained with in Krav Maga. That's hard to do, and these guys were trained specifically by Israeli special force members. I asked who they were taught by, the responses ranging from numerous officers from Israel working with the U.S. on training, to it was just plain classified. They were probably both right. I never found out, as a few years later the person who I mainly worked with in that art, and was very skilled, ended up killing himself in ritual seppuku with a katana he owned.
 
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elder999

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To some degree. To me, I can fight respectively using the style of Chung Do Kwan, Krav Maga, Muai Thai, WTF/ITF TKD, Shotokan, and so on. Each of these arts look as how they were conveyed to me, though may differ from school to school. In my experience, the word learned has not translated in martial arts to actualization, and that's across the board. Most of us learn the majority of the art 90% before 1st dan, and the remaining 10% after it. That was a generalization, but it isn't far from what I've experienced; the bulk of what constitutes the art is before the black. But I know few who actually can implement from beginner to black, all the techniques in the forms therein for their fighting. I split practitioners into generalized categories; initiate, knowledgeable, skilled/experienced, master, above (founder/grandmaster).

To answer Josh, I hail from a system originally where we just didn't refer to our teachers by their first names. I know M. Khan probably would have shat a brick if any of his students reffered to him outside of his position as their teacher, and superior. I've never felt the need to be insubordinate. I spent my time sitting in the corner for being fidgety, or so on as children can be, but I sobered up in my art, and much later, here I am.



You have a very skilled eye. I believe around 6 bagua practioners have commented on the video, only you and oaktree actually recognized it for it being small man bagua, and I was very happy to have oaktree's input. Both of us have been drawn to similar styles, though I would probably say his is more authentic than mine. I am very happy to converse with another person who is recognizant of the differences height demands on bagua in fighting. Thank you for alieviating some of the despair I had been feeling haha. I would be more than happy to post a video of us practicing, though I would have to say I will probably be using another person as the participant. While a skilled fighter, I am not enjoying the breaks every 30 seconds because of his smoking habits. Even when I was a straight up stoner I had better lungs and cardio than him, so I'm not sure what's going on there. No worries though, while a good fighter, there are a lot from the system he and I came from. Before I went to the school he hailed from, I was used to there being 5... maybe 6 people out of a school of 50 who could fight. Let's just say you didn't get your black belt until you had your trial by blood, and it wasn't fun. At the 4th straight minute, with another fighter each minute, the test quickly morphs from an examination, to an initiation. And everyone who had ever passed, and still came to the school, was there to watch on the sides, and be there for the person testing as others had them. Loyalty was stressed, and well, I guess I'm just drawn to that quality of the lion.

While I realize I digress; your eye has also picked out what a lot of others didn't, the 1980s format for point sparring. This is a point sparring format, but converted to continuous. I would like to say the reason M. Khan did this with his school is to allow for a cleaner restart. I think he noticed, as I'm sure many did, that when unfamiliar with our customs, or stressed, if you extended your glove to tap their's to give them the 'it's ayt, we're good, let's have fun' vertical fist bump a LOT of chinese practitioners react to the extension at first... by thinking it's a strike. There is no way to couch this, as it is rare people don't get what one is doing, and their reactions are so variable. I try to make sure when I do it my fist extends slowly, and obviously, so its registered by them as best as possible as motion, deliberate, but not with any threat.

Alec, and those of his modified Chung do Kwan style (which now, unfortunantely includes a heavy range of throws from aiki-jiujitsu) are not people I enjoy getting close to encounter. Against people who I am relatively certain will not be able to retain their base I do not mind entering, but on one occasion Alec attempted a throw with a grip that tore my bicep from my arm. Combined with a week later a light rap to my clavicle from the taijiquan expert I train with (though he will never say that himself... even when he's taught classes of hundreds of all ages, and is younger than myself) and was knocked out (he was unaware that my heartrate is below 50 beats per minute) so I have since learned that, for my own safety, the small man's bagua does not work for me all the time. The problem, I believe, is due to a clashing of wanting to meet the attack head on, and stop it, while other training advises evasion. The problem, really, is that I just haven't taken the time to ponder out how to get around those problems, though I have ideas which I'll say while answering the next question you asked. It's like you know how to do it, when not to do it, and that works for you. All that's left is actually putting it outside of theory and practice. Sadly, I have no sparring classes presently, so there is little opportunity to implement techniques I feel I need to work on toward actual combat application.

What are my plans for the future, I am hopeful it will be acceptable for me to do this in a 3 part. Because in the next 6-12 months I will be going to basic, my focus right now is recovering from my recent illness and lethargy. I'm hoping by the time I go to basic I'll be able to do 100 pushups in a sitting, hopefully with 1:30. 100 situps, 1:30. 100 crunches 1:00, and as many jumping jacks, squats, and frog hops as I can. Until out of basic I will be focusing instead of on fighting and forms and moreso on technique and speed (presumably the military will tear down what I have and give me what it wants, I am fine with this; way I see it as the first martial art which will give me a gun I don't have to pay for first, hah.

For me, my martial arts is defined by the practical, for me, not just others. I have short term goals, such as techniques I am focusing on (currently push techniques. I have a roommate who was a lineman in high school, and he hasn't lost a pound of his 300 or so girth since then. I figure if I can throw either him or the 275 pd. aikido practitioner I train with, and I'll be good for both escapes, and grounding for the military, if it's needed. As they're both over 6.5 feet the sheer size imbalance I hope should force rectify my difficulty getting around the length of people's size. I don't have issue with mass (since bagua takes advantage of that) but length has become more concerning of late against our wing chun practitioner. The middle term goals are to re-learn all the kata from my teachers where possible. This would be... a lot of forms, but as I have already learned them, and a lot are still in my muscle memory from rote repetition (for example, I have difficulty explaining the movements of ki cho hyung but can fall into sync with my eyes closed. It's kind of funny. If not careful, and not paying attention, when relying on muscle memory to cognizantly reteach me the movements the techniques can end up sloppy (in the past this was an issue, as muscle memory not only memorizes the general movement and sequences, but also the general mistakes you make, so it's a bit like learning from an old tape of yourself which is slowly losing it's ability to play. If not paying attention... which is difficult as the goal is to not think about the form to recall it, save its start initiating move to get the process going. I estimate between the 7 systems I would like to 're-collect' so to speak, there are about 70 forms. I estimate it'll take 6 months. Any longer and I'll be dissapointed with myself, since I did kinda get a dan for each of the systems, so since I've passed before there is no reason not to, now. Obviously the palm changes from Bagua will be more difficult for me, as my teacher has passed, though it was his recommendation I pursue yin style. I will be thinking on it while in the military.

The style of JKD does not exist. Upon further study of the history of TKD I have come to realize that mostly what we emulate from our teachers, they themselves did often mirror-imaging until back to the creator of the art, and trying to keep it as original as possible. There was a time I agreed with this, but not now. When I learned how Jhoon-Rhee taught Bruce Lee his high kicks, and Bruce Lee Jhoon Rhee's punches, I begin to see that what we see as 'JKD' and Chung Do Kwan are far more similar than is actually noted. They do differ, as they each opted to choose a different base. Bruce Lee retained his wing-chun base, broadening the stances to allow for the kick, while Jhoon Rhee stayed by his Taekyon roots. The verticle punch was reverted to the korean, and shotokan form where it is horizontal to create more surface area. I am not sure why he did this, switching it from verticle to horizontal, but I will say it directly led to the creation of a one-inch punch utilizing both the horizontal, and diagonal form of the strikes.

When it occurs to me that I can respectively fight in Chung Do Kwan, or any of the styles I feel comfortable (I will only say I can respectively fight in that system when I have become able to utilize 80% of the system in fighting, at will, without obscuring or crossing styles). While practicing Chung Do Kwan I vowed I would not perform my 3rd dan style of WTF and Tang Soo Do until I had re-earned my black, from the ground up.

I kept that vow, and it ultimately led me to consider martial arts as philosophical styles of a kind, in that they follow logic in how they operate. If person does A, I will do B. They are expecting C, and so on. I am good at logic, so fighting is easy, especially because of how bagua allows the slightest reangling of the strike to miss entirely with next to no effort on our part.

In the end, however, I still feel martial arts to be comprised both of the art we learn, and what makes us unique. We all in the beginning look like the art taught to us, a gifted few become so skilled that in time, the art comes to look like them, and it is what people will seek to learn, as that form of the art. JKD, to me, and Chung Do Kwan, should be considered jointly created by both men, due to the nature of how both could not exist, at all, without the other's teachings.

Because of this, it has occurred to me that any of the styles which have a founder, attempt to retain how it was originally. I consider everyone to have a martial art style they are attempting to learn to fight in, but have another style which is just the techniques they feel comfortable using, across the entire range of their learning, and is the style which, ultimately, will pour back into the style they practice as they once make it their own. In Chung Do Kwan I've noticed the inverse occur; normally people start looking completely different, and gradually work towards looking the same. at M'Khans we all began looking the same (not me) and ended up, once with enough skill and degree of comfort, not only integrating every technique we had learned from M'khan, but others he had either not specifically taught as a part of either system, or they had created. Innovation of form was encouraged at khan's, innocation of technique was not.


:rolleyes:
 
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Chris Parker

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To some degree. To me, I can fight respectively using the style of Chung Do Kwan, Krav Maga, Muai Thai, WTF/ITF TKD, Shotokan, and so on. Each of these arts look as how they were conveyed to me, though may differ from school to school. In my experience, the word learned has not translated in martial arts to actualization, and that's across the board. Most of us learn the majority of the art 90% before 1st dan, and the remaining 10% after it. That was a generalization, but it isn't far from what I've experienced; the bulk of what constitutes the art is before the black. But I know few who actually can implement from beginner to black, all the techniques in the forms therein for their fighting. I split practitioners into generalized categories; initiate, knowledgeable, skilled/experienced, master, above (founder/grandmaster).

To answer Josh, I hail from a system originally where we just didn't refer to our teachers by their first names. I know M. Khan probably would have shat a brick if any of his students reffered to him outside of his position as their teacher, and superior. I've never felt the need to be insubordinate. I spent my time sitting in the corner for being fidgety, or so on as children can be, but I sobered up in my art, and much later, here I am.



You have a very skilled eye. I believe around 6 bagua practioners have commented on the video, only you and oaktree actually recognized it for it being small man bagua, and I was very happy to have oaktree's input. Both of us have been drawn to similar styles, though I would probably say his is more authentic than mine. I am very happy to converse with another person who is recognizant of the differences height demands on bagua in fighting. Thank you for alieviating some of the despair I had been feeling haha. I would be more than happy to post a video of us practicing, though I would have to say I will probably be using another person as the participant. While a skilled fighter, I am not enjoying the breaks every 30 seconds because of his smoking habits. Even when I was a straight up stoner I had better lungs and cardio than him, so I'm not sure what's going on there. No worries though, while a good fighter, there are a lot from the system he and I came from. Before I went to the school he hailed from, I was used to there being 5... maybe 6 people out of a school of 50 who could fight. Let's just say you didn't get your black belt until you had your trial by blood, and it wasn't fun. At the 4th straight minute, with another fighter each minute, the test quickly morphs from an examination, to an initiation. And everyone who had ever passed, and still came to the school, was there to watch on the sides, and be there for the person testing as others had them. Loyalty was stressed, and well, I guess I'm just drawn to that quality of the lion.

While I realize I digress; your eye has also picked out what a lot of others didn't, the 1980s format for point sparring. This is a point sparring format, but converted to continuous. I would like to say the reason M. Khan did this with his school is to allow for a cleaner restart. I think he noticed, as I'm sure many did, that when unfamiliar with our customs, or stressed, if you extended your glove to tap their's to give them the 'it's ayt, we're good, let's have fun' vertical fist bump a LOT of chinese practitioners react to the extension at first... by thinking it's a strike. There is no way to couch this, as it is rare people don't get what one is doing, and their reactions are so variable. I try to make sure when I do it my fist extends slowly, and obviously, so its registered by them as best as possible as motion, deliberate, but not with any threat.

Alec, and those of his modified Chung do Kwan style (which now, unfortunantely includes a heavy range of throws from aiki-jiujitsu) are not people I enjoy getting close to encounter. Against people who I am relatively certain will not be able to retain their base I do not mind entering, but on one occasion Alec attempted a throw with a grip that tore my bicep from my arm. Combined with a week later a light rap to my clavicle from the taijiquan expert I train with (though he will never say that himself... even when he's taught classes of hundreds of all ages, and is younger than myself) and was knocked out (he was unaware that my heartrate is below 50 beats per minute) so I have since learned that, for my own safety, the small man's bagua does not work for me all the time. The problem, I believe, is due to a clashing of wanting to meet the attack head on, and stop it, while other training advises evasion. The problem, really, is that I just haven't taken the time to ponder out how to get around those problems, though I have ideas which I'll say while answering the next question you asked. It's like you know how to do it, when not to do it, and that works for you. All that's left is actually putting it outside of theory and practice. Sadly, I have no sparring classes presently, so there is little opportunity to implement techniques I feel I need to work on toward actual combat application.

What are my plans for the future, I am hopeful it will be acceptable for me to do this in a 3 part. Because in the next 6-12 months I will be going to basic, my focus right now is recovering from my recent illness and lethargy. I'm hoping by the time I go to basic I'll be able to do 100 pushups in a sitting, hopefully with 1:30. 100 situps, 1:30. 100 crunches 1:00, and as many jumping jacks, squats, and frog hops as I can. Until out of basic I will be focusing instead of on fighting and forms and moreso on technique and speed (presumably the military will tear down what I have and give me what it wants, I am fine with this; way I see it as the first martial art which will give me a gun I don't have to pay for first, hah.

For me, my martial arts is defined by the practical, for me, not just others. I have short term goals, such as techniques I am focusing on (currently push techniques. I have a roommate who was a lineman in high school, and he hasn't lost a pound of his 300 or so girth since then. I figure if I can throw either him or the 275 pd. aikido practitioner I train with, and I'll be good for both escapes, and grounding for the military, if it's needed. As they're both over 6.5 feet the sheer size imbalance I hope should force rectify my difficulty getting around the length of people's size. I don't have issue with mass (since bagua takes advantage of that) but length has become more concerning of late against our wing chun practitioner. The middle term goals are to re-learn all the kata from my teachers where possible. This would be... a lot of forms, but as I have already learned them, and a lot are still in my muscle memory from rote repetition (for example, I have difficulty explaining the movements of ki cho hyung but can fall into sync with my eyes closed. It's kind of funny. If not careful, and not paying attention, when relying on muscle memory to cognizantly reteach me the movements the techniques can end up sloppy (in the past this was an issue, as muscle memory not only memorizes the general movement and sequences, but also the general mistakes you make, so it's a bit like learning from an old tape of yourself which is slowly losing it's ability to play. If not paying attention... which is difficult as the goal is to not think about the form to recall it, save its start initiating move to get the process going. I estimate between the 7 systems I would like to 're-collect' so to speak, there are about 70 forms. I estimate it'll take 6 months. Any longer and I'll be dissapointed with myself, since I did kinda get a dan for each of the systems, so since I've passed before there is no reason not to, now. Obviously the palm changes from Bagua will be more difficult for me, as my teacher has passed, though it was his recommendation I pursue yin style. I will be thinking on it while in the military.

The style of JKD does not exist. Upon further study of the history of TKD I have come to realize that mostly what we emulate from our teachers, they themselves did often mirror-imaging until back to the creator of the art, and trying to keep it as original as possible. There was a time I agreed with this, but not now. When I learned how Jhoon-Rhee taught Bruce Lee his high kicks, and Bruce Lee Jhoon Rhee's punches, I begin to see that what we see as 'JKD' and Chung Do Kwan are far more similar than is actually noted. They do differ, as they each opted to choose a different base. Bruce Lee retained his wing-chun base, broadening the stances to allow for the kick, while Jhoon Rhee stayed by his Taekyon roots. The verticle punch was reverted to the korean, and shotokan form where it is horizontal to create more surface area. I am not sure why he did this, switching it from verticle to horizontal, but I will say it directly led to the creation of a one-inch punch utilizing both the horizontal, and diagonal form of the strikes.

When it occurs to me that I can respectively fight in Chung Do Kwan, or any of the styles I feel comfortable (I will only say I can respectively fight in that system when I have become able to utilize 80% of the system in fighting, at will, without obscuring or crossing styles). While practicing Chung Do Kwan I vowed I would not perform my 3rd dan style of WTF and Tang Soo Do until I had re-earned my black, from the ground up.

I kept that vow, and it ultimately led me to consider martial arts as philosophical styles of a kind, in that they follow logic in how they operate. If person does A, I will do B. They are expecting C, and so on. I am good at logic, so fighting is easy, especially because of how bagua allows the slightest reangling of the strike to miss entirely with next to no effort on our part.

In the end, however, I still feel martial arts to be comprised both of the art we learn, and what makes us unique. We all in the beginning look like the art taught to us, a gifted few become so skilled that in time, the art comes to look like them, and it is what people will seek to learn, as that form of the art. JKD, to me, and Chung Do Kwan, should be considered jointly created by both men, due to the nature of how both could not exist, at all, without the other's teachings.

Because of this, it has occurred to me that any of the styles which have a founder, attempt to retain how it was originally. I consider everyone to have a martial art style they are attempting to learn to fight in, but have another style which is just the techniques they feel comfortable using, across the entire range of their learning, and is the style which, ultimately, will pour back into the style they practice as they once make it their own. In Chung Do Kwan I've noticed the inverse occur; normally people start looking completely different, and gradually work towards looking the same. at M'Khans we all began looking the same (not me) and ended up, once with enough skill and degree of comfort, not only integrating every technique we had learned from M'khan, but others he had either not specifically taught as a part of either system, or they had created. Innovation of form was encouraged at khan's, innovation of technique was not.

Eventually I will bring together, from the arts I have learned once ready which utilizes the circular movements of Bagua and TKD together to generate substantial force, while executing techniques in a straight line, with the agression I have learned in krav maga, combined with power kicks of Muai Thai, throws of Jiujitsu, join and nerve-locks of Hapkido. The style will emphasize strikes which double as blocks, and the inverse, with redirection of oncoming blows used to move the attack to a more desirable location. Effectively, it should turn their attack into a move which is beneficial toward the defender. It will use a lot of elbows and knees, as I have found with the fighting stance people tend to extend their arms and keep it tight. It's a simple matter to guide their punch, and then take control by catching their hand under the point of my elbow, and using constant movement, and sensitivity of balance to retain control over the center of both our now shared gravity, and retain the punch. I emphasize it so not only be reaction, but when it is, it strikes first. I will probably end up switch the style from closed fist, to open, as I personally favor the palm and strikes utilizing the parts of the hand not indirectly exposing body structure without the meat to protect it.

I intend for it to be grounded through Chung Do Kwan, with a stance altered from Bagua where the arm wards the face and other across the midsection. Time will tell how it will ultimately turn out, I am predicting that, because if there was noconcern from me toward the wellbeing of my attacker (I will not hurt someone unless it is warranted, and asked for, such as if they deliberately try to bodily harm me.

So, to translate:

"I have no idea about the structure, history, development, or principles of martial arts, but am happy to tell everyone that I know better. Oh, and I live in a fantasy world."

See? Much more concise.
 
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Zenjael

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It is easy to back up any of what I wrote, you will just have to let me have the time to retrieve the sources after I return. Anything which comes from personal experience I have learned about the history of MA from my teachers, and record as established theory... but since all history is defined as theoretical, even if guised as factual. I am a history major, and if it were offered here at Mason, I would be taking MA historical classes. Instead, I am stuck compiling my own resources together, but I assure you, I only record what I can actually confirm. I would like to publish a book eventually, so it's important it be as accurate as possible, from the mouth of the originators as possible. It's not easy, my goal right now is to get an interview with Jhoon Rhee before it could be too late, though I am hopeful that day is still far off before it comes.

Anything you are dubious of just yank from below in the quotes, it's the most up to date, but unfortunantely missed the 60 minute window, so oh well. It's more complete, however.

If you have learned something you have internalized it to some degree. What you are reffering to when you say "learned", Zenjael, is mindless puppetry.

Most of our drills, I guess under that frame of mind, would be mindless. But you refer to 'mindless' as a bad thing, which I find odd. Even the rote repetition, if done with an empty mind, free of intention, can bring great joy to those who enjoy it. I used to wonder what it meant to incorporate a martial art into yourself, and eventually, to return the influence later through your own stylistic tendencies, within the art, and if it catches on, is taught, and progressed... it has helped the art to evolve and grow, and thus, the practitioner has completed the circle. M.Khan has 3 satellite schools, at least, which I know of which exist based off his teachings, using his forms, and combinations. But now I understand that even when one is influencing martial arts to such a degree it has become necessary for you to continue it (When MK stopped teaching, he effectively halted over 200 people's training, permanently, and he knew it too. Hence why when his students who still wanted to hone Chung do Kwan went to TKD Academy, even myself, he was not angry. In his own words, he left his students little choice.)

As such, at least to those nearing completion of their training, if they can they should be allowed to compete it. There was an instructor I remember from M. Khan's school who I never understood was a first dan, yet I never saw him working on technique and so on. He was the person who was happy with where they were, and M. Khan offered him the chance to test to 2nd Dan again (I hate the ranking system and consider it, once tied to commercialism, possibly one of the only things to permanently damage martial arts as a whole... but even I'd jump at the opportunity to get a 2nd Dan from M. Khan.) and though he took it, he also failed, and was seriously injured during his exam. His son, a bit of a hot head (A boxer who only strikes to the head, despite clear restrictions to the face. He only did it if you appeared to be skilled, or had, had khan's training. I think the experience was so humiliating he stopped practicing martial arts, but he was also getting up in years. That being said, another gifted martial artist was Mr. Tischner who created a weapons form called sweet dreams, partially as a joke (it's movements too) and to the surprise of everyone it one at tournaments for years. I think, inpart, nunchuka had yet to become as prevalent as they are now.

But while we should be mindless in our training, you can actually witness the stylistic differences between me in 2008, and 2010. If you want to see the height of Chung Do Kwan learning I have, it was enough to place me in 2nd place at a forms division, where two of the three individuals judging were from the first person who went's form. I might be bitter, since in my youth it was my goal to always win a MA tourny as Gautama had, in his day... but something else happened. Before then I had a lot of trophies, everytime I've helped host a tournament, or judged, or reffed, or demod and so on, we just stock up the **** for wins. That bothers me- while I agree that 'tournaments' offer a great opportunity to communicate with others cross style, and whom you normally wouldn't, I also think that section of the tournament should be only demonstration, not competition. And demonstration for the sake of promoting the style, not winning some stupid plastic icon. And I do consider them stupid, I've thrown all my trophies out. After they had handed out the awards to each of us, the person who placed first approached me, and told me that he believed I deserved the trophy more. The same ref's who judged our katas were who judge that age division when we spar. Would you trust their judgement? I didn't, and don't. If the winner had the integrity to say that to me, I would prefer that over any trophy. I had a valuable learning experienec that day, several- another good one was in the sarcastic knife I did (with steak knives at the behest of a fellow practitioner who didn't think I'd actually carry my promise out) I effectively flunkied out. I was alright with that, I had never competed with a weapon form, and I never will again. I feel, at least with knives, it defeats the purpose as an ace up your sleeve... when you display the ace for the world to see. I don't mind speaking about weapon practice, but knivework are just one of those skills I only share with people who are close to me. Most people from Khan's are like that in terms of weaponry. I had minimal training there, but it was enough to set the groundwork for me to later pick knives up as my choice for arsenal.

To some degree. To me, I can fight respectively using the style of Chung Do Kwan, Krav Maga, Muai Thai, WTF/ITF TKD, Shotokan, and so on. Each of these arts look as how they were conveyed to me, though may differ from school to school. In my experience, the word learned has not translated in martial arts to actualization, and that's across the board. Most of us learn the majority of the art 90% before 1st dan, and the remaining 10% after it. That was a generalization, but it isn't far from what I've experienced; the bulk of what constitutes the art is before the black. But I know few who actually can implement from beginner to black, all the techniques in the forms therein for their fighting. I split practitioners into generalized categories; initiate, knowledgeable, skilled/experienced, master, above (founder/grandmaster).



To answer Josh, I hail from a system originally where we just didn't refer to our teachers by their first names. I know M. Khan probably would have shat a brick if any of his students reffered to him outside of his position as their teacher, and superior. I've never felt the need to be insubordinate. I spent my time sitting in the corner for being fidgety, or so on as children can be, but I sobered up in my art, and much later, here I am. I kinda have a stick up my *** when teaching, though I try to temper any seriousness with humor. I think humor is essential to teach martial arts as also a path to have fun on also. A lot of teachers forget that people join cause it's fuuuuuuuun. And they ignore it.

I only saw 80's style point fighting going on there. Freestyle Karate kind of thing.
If thats what you are aiming for, then great, get into some competition while you are young.

I would like to see you guys get padded up and go full contact, with takedowns (after all, whats Bagua without entering/sweeps/throws etc)
Are you interested in taking what you have to the next level?
You have some good flexability, some quirky timing/distancing, almost everytime you retreated you could have entered - Thats the small mans Bagua, You have to get in..

Do you feel you are stagnating, where can you go with this, what are your future goals?

I actually have been considering this... and as such have been praciticing ensuring both accuracy and a quirk M. Khan has where no matter how closed or strong your arms, he could get through your guard. It was weird. I'm fairly certain it was a modified punch utilizing a spear hand through whatever gap there was. If it wasn't for the fact he'd them ream you, we'd prolly all feel the force of his strike seperating our arms enough to slide his strike through, and once past our hands, then torque it. I will probably try to implement that and see how he feel when next we meet, and if I ever get to spar with him. M.Khan is kinda the teacher who's sitting atop the mountain, enjoying his time to himself. But people who are teachers can't stop. It's like an addiction for people who truly are born to do it.

You have a very skilled eye. I believe around 6 bagua practioners have commented on the video, only you and oaktree actually recognized it for it being small man bagua, and I was very happy to have oaktree's input. Both of us have been drawn to similar styles, though I would probably say his is more authentic than mine. I am very happy to converse with another person who is recognizant of the differences height demands on bagua in fighting. Thank you for alieviating some of the despair I had been feeling haha. I would be more than happy to post a video of us practicing, though I would have to say I will probably be using another person as the participant. While a skilled fighter, I am not enjoying the breaks every 30 seconds because of his smoking habits. Even when I was a straight up stoner I had better lungs and cardio than him, so I'm not sure what's going on there. No worries though, while a good fighter, there are a lot from the system he and I came from. Before I went to the school he hailed from, I was used to there being 5... maybe 6 people out of a school of 50 who could fight. Let's just say you didn't get your black belt until you had your trial by blood, and it wasn't fun. At the 4th straight minute, with another fighter each minute, the test quickly morphs from an examination, to an initiation. And everyone who had ever passed, and still came to the school, was there to watch on the sides, and be there for the person testing as others had them. Loyalty was stressed, and well, I guess I'm just drawn to that quality of the lion.

While I realize I digress; your eye has also picked out what a lot of others didn't, the 1980s format for point sparring. This is a point sparring format, but converted to continuous. I would like to say the reason M. Khan did this with his school is to allow for a cleaner restart. I think he noticed, as I'm sure many did, that when unfamiliar with our customs, or stressed, if you extended your glove to tap their's to give them the 'it's ayt, we're good, let's have fun' vertical fist bump a LOT of chinese practitioners react to the extension at first... by thinking it's a strike. There is no way to couch this, as it is rare people don't get what one is doing, and their reactions are so variable. I try to make sure when I do it my fist extends slowly, and obviously, so its registered by them as best as possible as motion, deliberate, but not with any threat.

Alec, and those of his modified Chung do Kwan style (which now, unfortunantely includes a heavy range of throws from aiki-jiujitsu) are not people I enjoy getting close to encounter. Against people who I am relatively certain will not be able to retain their base I do not mind entering, but on one occasion Alec attempted a throw with a grip that tore my bicep from my arm. Combined with a week later a light rap to my clavicle from the taijiquan expert I train with (though he will never say that himself... even when he's taught classes of hundreds of all ages, and is younger than myself) and was knocked out (he was unaware that my heartrate is below 50 beats per minute) so I have since learned that, for my own safety, the small man's bagua does not work for me all the time. The problem, I believe, is due to a clashing of wanting to meet the attack head on, and stop it, while other training advises evasion. The problem, really, is that I just haven't taken the time to ponder out how to get around those problems, though I have ideas which I'll say while answering the next question you asked. It's like you know how to do it, when not to do it, and that works for you. All that's left is actually putting it outside of theory and practice. Sadly, I have no sparring classes presently, so there is little opportunity to implement techniques I feel I need to work on toward actual combat application.

What are my plans for the future, I am hopeful it will be acceptable for me to do this in a 3 part. Because in the next 6-12 months I will be going to basic, my focus right now is recovering from my recent illness and lethargy. I'm hoping by the time I go to basic I'll be able to do 100 pushups in a sitting, hopefully with 1:30. 100 situps, 1:30. 100 crunches 1:00, and as many jumping jacks, squats, and frog hops as I can. Until out of basic I will be focusing instead of on fighting and forms and moreso on technique and speed (presumably the military will tear down what I have and give me what it wants, I am fine with this; way I see it as the first martial art which will give me a gun I don't have to pay for first, hah.

For me, my martial arts is defined by the practical, for me, not just others. I have short term goals, such as techniques I am focusing on (currently push techniques. I have a roommate who was a lineman in high school, and he hasn't lost a pound of his 300 or so girth since then. I figure if I can throw either him or the 275 pd. aikido practitioner I train with, and I'll be good for both escapes, and grounding for the military, if it's needed. As they're both over 6.5 feet the sheer size imbalance I hope should force rectify my difficulty getting around the length of people's size. I don't have issue with mass (since bagua takes advantage of that) but length has become more concerning of late against our wing chun practitioner. The middle term goals are to re-learn all the kata from my teachers where possible. This would be... a lot of forms, but as I have already learned them, and a lot are still in my muscle memory from rote repetition (for example, I have difficulty explaining the movements of ki cho hyung but can fall into sync with my eyes closed. It's kind of funny. If not careful, and not paying attention, when relying on muscle memory to cognizantly reteach me the movements the techniques can end up sloppy (in the past this was an issue, as muscle memory not only memorizes the general movement and sequences, but also the general mistakes you make, so it's a bit like learning from an old tape of yourself which is slowly losing it's ability to play. If not paying attention... which is difficult as the goal is to not think about the form to recall it, save its start initiating move to get the process going. I estimate between the 7 systems I would like to 're-collect' so to speak, there are about 70 forms. I estimate it'll take 6 months. Any longer and I'll be dissapointed with myself, since I did kinda get a dan for each of the systems, so since I've passed before there is no reason not to, now. Obviously the palm changes from Bagua will be more difficult for me, as my teacher has passed, though it was his recommendation I pursue yin style. I will be thinking on it while in the military.

The style of JKD does not exist. Upon further study of the history of TKD I have come to realize that mostly what we emulate from our teachers, they themselves did often mirror-imaging until back to the creator of the art, and trying to keep it as original as possible. There was a time I agreed with this, but not now. When I learned how Jhoon-Rhee taught Bruce Lee his high kicks, and Bruce Lee Jhoon Rhee's punches, I begin to see that what we see as 'JKD' and Chung Do Kwan are far more similar than is actually noted. They do differ, as they each opted to choose a different base. Bruce Lee retained his wing-chun base, broadening the stances to allow for the kick, while Jhoon Rhee stayed by his Taekyon roots. The verticle punch was reverted to the korean, and shotokan form where it is horizontal to create more surface area. I am not sure why he did this, switching it from verticle to horizontal, but I will say it directly led to the creation of a one-inch punch utilizing both the horizontal, and diagonal form of the strikes.

When it occurs to me that I can respectively fight in Chung Do Kwan, or any of the styles I feel comfortable (I will only say I can respectively fight in that system when I have become able to utilize 80% of the system in fighting, at will, without obscuring or crossing styles). While practicing Chung Do Kwan I vowed I would not perform my 3rd dan style of WTF and Tang Soo Do until I had re-earned my black, from the ground up.

I kept that vow, and it ultimately led me to consider martial arts as philosophical styles of a kind, in that they follow logic in how they operate. If person does A, I will do B. They are expecting C, and so on. I am good at logic, so fighting is easy, especially because of how bagua allows the slightest reangling of the strike to miss entirely with next to no effort on our part.

In the end, however, I still feel martial arts to be comprised both of the art we learn, and what makes us unique. We all in the beginning look like the art taught to us, a gifted few become so skilled that in time, the art comes to look like them, and it is what people will seek to learn, as that form of the art. JKD, to me, and Chung Do Kwan, should be considered jointly created by both men, due to the nature of how both could not exist, at all, without the other's teachings.

Because of this, it has occurred to me that any of the styles which have a founder, attempt to retain how it was originally. I consider everyone to have a martial art style they are attempting to learn to fight in, but have another style which is just the techniques they feel comfortable using, across the entire range of their learning, and is the style which, ultimately, will pour back into the style they practice as they once make it their own. In Chung Do Kwan I've noticed the inverse occur; normally people start looking completely different, and gradually work towards looking the same. at M'Khans we all began looking the same (not me) and ended up, once with enough skill and degree of comfort, not only integrating every technique we had learned from M'khan, but others he had either not specifically taught as a part of either system, or they had created. Innovation of form was encouraged at khan's, innovation of technique was not.

Eventually I will bring together, from the arts I have learned once ready which utilizes the circular movements of Bagua and TKD together to generate substantial force, while executing techniques in a straight line, with the agression I have learned in krav maga, combined with power kicks of Muai Thai, throws of Jiujitsu, join and nerve-locks of Hapkido. The style will emphasize strikes which double as blocks, and the inverse, with redirection of oncoming blows used to move the attack to a more desirable location. Effectively, it should turn their attack into a move which is beneficial toward the defender. It will use a lot of elbows and knees, as I have found with the fighting stance people tend to extend their arms and keep it tight. It's a simple matter to guide their punch, and then take control by catching their hand under the point of my elbow, and using constant movement, and sensitivity of balance to retain control over the center of both our now shared gravity, and retain the punch. I emphasize it so not only be reaction, but when it is, it strikes first. I will probably end up switch the style from closed fist, to open, as I personally favor the palm and strikes utilizing the parts of the hand not indirectly exposing body structure without the meat to protect it.

I intend for it to be grounded through Chung Do Kwan, with a stance altered from Bagua where the arm wards the face and other across the midsection. Time will tell how it will ultimately turn out, I am predicting that, because if there was noconcern from me toward the wellbeing of my attacker (I will not hurt someone unless it is warranted, and asked for, such as if they deliberately try to bodily harm me.

So Alex what you mean when you say an art can be learned in days, is that it can be learned in 3-5 full days of 24 hours each. Lets be pessimistic and say 5 Days x 24 hours = 120 Hours. To learn a full art. Sorry, but I'm afraid that is nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate why:

I learned WTF Taekwondo (allegedly one of the quickest, easiest styles to attain BB in) pretty much 1 on 1 with a 5th Dan instructor. I spent 1.5 hours, 3 nights a week training 1 on 1 with him, and probably another 6 hours per week training alone at home. I also spent countless hours in between reading up on techniques and current thinking, and analysing motions. I'm no slow learner (I'd say I'm pretty quick compared to most people), and he's no slouch teaching. It took me 4 years to achieve 1st Dan at a standard that I am proud of. That's, hmm... lets see:

1.5 hours x minimum of 3 nights per week = 4.5 hours / week
+ 6 Hours / week training alone = 10.5 hours per week
10.5 x 50 weeks (one year with 2 weeks holiday) = 525 hours / year
525 Hours x 4 Years = 2100 Hours just on physical training to get to 1st Dan

That's the equivalent of 87 full 24 hour days. So it would be more accurate to say you can learn the basics of an art in months. 3 of them. Without sleeping, eating or doing anything else.

And that's not including weekend camps and seminars, squad training, competition and conditioning training (at least another 1000 Hours on weekends), nor does it include research and learning time spent analysing motions and visualisation methods. I'm not including weight training either.

You, my dear boy, are full of it. In 120 Hours, you've not even understood the motion correctly, nevermind learned it physically. I would strongly recommend not making statements of this nature in a public forum if you wish to retain any credibility as a MA instructor, or have any kind of future career. Once you've said it, it's out there forever. It may already be too late.

My apologies for the bad math. I am le terrible at it; language is more of my forte, and less in how linguistics work, and moreso how the flow and structure can be made to more efficiently express messages. You'd think that not exactly the most useful of techniques, but there's a lot of free work to be had with students he either have written too much, cannot write, or haven't at all. It's why I can produce such massive volumous texts (and which I apologize for the verboseness of). The writing I have on here is not very good, as it is stilted from constantly altering, and checking the language I am using to couch it as martial artists tend to do. Understanding our art requires a heightened sense of honor, which is defined as being what is right. If we don't do what is right, we are taught we will die, and out of that concern, a lot of MA people can jump the gun on how people actually feel, jumping to conclusion. A good example of this was Bill Mattocks mistakenly having missread a post of mine as insulting isshin ryu, when I believe I said something completely different. I didn't need to do a re-check of what I had written, because I simply apologized and reittered that I will not criticize styles on this board, and that the missreading was my fault for having poorly worded the sentences. In the non-fiction I write, I attempt to put as many interpretations of a sentence as possible without garbling it up. This can leak over to my other writing, though I hadn't thought it did. Apparently when I write as I do for this forum... it comes out. So, my apologies. I'll work on that also lol.

That being said, I can back up every technique I talk about with both how to do it, not in just one style, but if it's in TKD, I can probably give you it's equivalent, and demontrate it in at least 6 of its surviving styles. I would have my 275 lb. aikido friend do any Oh Do Kwan, which I am slowly teaching him in addition to his chung Do Kwan, because his size effectively neutralizes me unless I am for either vitals or pressure points. I am lucky he is not a non-responder like me, or he would be one very bad mofo to deal with. Fortunately, he's xtian, and has the heart of a puppy, and as far as I can tell, 0 illwill.

Great that it took you 4 years. Does that legitimize your training? Does it mean that other people who took shorter, it de-legitimizes? It took Bruce Lee months to transfer the kicks from Taekyon to his own personalized style of martial art, which is all WTF effectively is, with hand techniques thrown in rfom Subak and possibly the Chinese Kempo which was drawn on to form what would be the punches in Tang Soo Do. Bruce Lee utilized Wing Chun as a base to operate off of, because he understood that no martial art was the end all be all, and that anything can be improved if looked in the proper way, because nothing is perfect. Thing about that; even after 19 years, even when others tell me I do it right, I still blanket assume I do the technique wrong so I never stop working on it. The only one which readily comes to mind I am having difficulty with is keeping my Muai Thai from the Lion-style roundhouse I have seen. It's effectively a round house to the neck where instead of making an executing strike, it pulls the person toward the ground. And I don't think I'd criticize Bruce Lee's degree of technicality, especially when he was far more successful than I can probably dream to be. But then again, he had Ip Man, who I am assuming based upon legend was just as skilled a teacher as M. Khan, though I think my own teacher more open minded as he accepted children. Can you imagine Bruce's skill had he been accepted when first a child? (I have heard variations where he told to come back when older, and others where he was accepted either a little later, or later that year). I think TKD, if on the branch of WTF style which draws from traditional korean arts, is an essential for every martial artist to learn, but not stay with. The reason is, apart from muai thai a few other styles, TKD is the art to go if you want a very strong kick, fast, without expending too much energy. You say it took you 4 years to get to 1st dan, in my experience the fighting ability of most WTF practitioners 3rd dan is equivalent to the 1st dan of most Chung Do Kwan schools I have purchanced to witness. Perhaps your teacher was an exception to that, they are out there, and they are who ensure the art actually stays such, instead of devolving into a sport. If you want to watch out for martial arts which don't work practically, it is those which are phased out and become 'sport'. Other people who practice MA tend not to take it seriously.

So by my calculation, if you were to run off how M.Khan's was, to attain the degree of skill with your master (based off my own experience with MDK and WTF teachers in the D.C., NOVA, and southern Maryland area, that was present in every student at M.khan's, probably would take you about 3x as long unless you are taught by somebody of M.Khan's calibur. Please correct my math if off, I know many WTF schools have expected waiting periods before you could test again. I do not doubt that your teacher was skilled himself, and an able teacher... but there are some people who are not good at teaching, it is their gift.

It was not that he made the students awesome, it was that he could show the students how to bring what made them good, out of themself, and learn how to hunt for more within. It was his insight which is how his students would dominate at tournaments, before they stopped competing publicly. You just couldn't stop their aggression, which at M.Khan's school was even higher than the military personel's I trained with in Krav Maga. That's hard to do, and these guys were trained specifically by Israeli special force members. I asked who they were taught by, the responses ranging from numerous officers from Israel working with the U.S. on training, to it was just plain classified. They were probably both right. I never found out, as a few years later the person who I mainly worked with in that art, and was very skilled, ended up killing himself in ritual seppuku with a katana he owned.

History, in every aspect, is an ever evolving field. If the information is completely wrong as you advocate, or even partially, I must ask on behalf of all martial artists for you to enlighten us, and if possible where to obtain the sources to verify the info. I've been pulling from wikipedia to paraphrase and attempt to keep the article from going to long in length, as the wiki tends to bullet things, thus making it written a much more direct, succinct, and to the point. Hence how I mised the window the post I quoted. It happens, myb.

I am hopeful a mod can rectify my error and remove the previous post and just leave this one, or move the text from this quote to that box. I don't know, I don't want to bother them over something so mundane.

MA history is something to share, for the sake that all have certainty in where we learn originated from.
 

Gnarlie

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I've deleted the parts I didn't find relevant, to make it faster for you.

My apologies for the bad math. I am le terrible at it; language is more of my forte, and less in how linguistics work, and moreso how the flow and structure can be made to more efficiently express messages.

Alex, your English is some of the worst I've seen on this forum. That's really saying something. In fact, I work with some non-native speakers of English who manage to write more meaningfully. You really should work on making concise and salient points, using words that actually exist.

So, my apologies. I'll work on that also lol.

How you write elsewhere is no excuse for how you write here. Check and review before you submit - stop expecting us to do the hard work for you.

Great that it took you 4 years. Does that legitimize your training? Does it mean that other people who took shorter, it de-legitimizes?

It legitimises my training in that 4 years is how long it took to reach a standard that I was happy with, putting in as much effort as I possibly could. Other people might get there more quickly, that's their prerogative. It does raise the question of whether they got there faster to due superior skills, or reduced standards.

It took Bruce Lee months to transfer the kicks from Taekyon to his own personalized style of martial art, which is all WTF effectively is, with hand techniques thrown in rfom Subak and possibly the Chinese Kempo which was drawn on to form what would be the punches in Tang Soo Do.

I'm not a Bruce Lee fan, but the above statement about Kukki TKD is one of the most factually incorrect that I have read in a long time.


I think TKD, if on the branch of WTF style which draws from traditional korean arts, is an essential for every martial artist to learn, but not stay with. The reason is, apart from muai thai a few other styles, TKD is the art to go if you want a very strong kick, fast, without expending too much energy.

There's way more to Kukki TKD than kicking. But I don't think you've gone far enough into it to know what is or is not there.

You say it took you 4 years to get to 1st dan, in my experience the fighting ability of most WTF practitioners 3rd dan is equivalent to the 1st dan of most Chung Do Kwan schools I have purchanced to witness.

That's a very broad statement, but I can say that judging by your video, it doesn't hold water. You'd pretty much get trounced by any of my peers in England or Germany.

Perhaps your teacher was an exception to that, they are out there, and they are who ensure the art actually stays such, instead of devolving into a sport. If you want to watch out for martial arts which don't work practically, it is those which are phased out and become 'sport'. Other people who practice MA tend not to take it seriously.

Other people who practice MA tend not to take you seriously. WTF / Kukki TKD may have a sport aspect, but it is in no way 'phasing out'. My teacher and I are focused on practicality in TKD, and I can tell you that a lot of your 'sparring' is not practical.

So by my calculation, if you were to run off how M.Khan's was, to attain the degree of skill with your master (based off my own experience with MDK and WTF teachers in the D.C., NOVA, and southern Maryland area, that was present in every student at M.khan's, probably would take you about 3x as long unless you are taught by somebody of M.Khan's calibur. Please correct my math if off, I know many WTF schools have expected waiting periods before you could test again. I do not doubt that your teacher was skilled himself, and an able teacher... but there are some people who are not good at teaching, it is their gift.

Alex, you're missing the point. I'm saying that my standard at 1st Dan was very high for that grade. That standard has stood me in good stead as I have travelled internationally. It's always put me head and shoulders above the pack in terms of depth of knowledge. Your standard and depth of knowledge, it seems, haven't fared so well internationally. After 12 years, I'm certified at 2nd Dan. Though choice. I don't care how quickly people grade in a backwater CDK school on another continent - the proof is in the ability and knowledge of the student, and the only proof we have here is you. It's not looking good.

The word is calibre, by the way
.

As for the stuff I deleted - IRRELEVANT. Yawn.
 

K-man

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The Taijiquan practitioner who I have such great respect for, I actually first met 3 years ago, when I was living in a dingy apartment, and I was a total pothead. It was before I got in trouble, haha .....
Some years ago two of my children got stuck into pot. They both had enormous psychological problems caused by this substance that many view as harmless. One ended up on a disability pension. He was diagnosed with drug induced psychosis. Fortunately he has since recovered.

Another family member, cousin, also was a cannabis user. His situation was much worse. He also suffered psychosis. He is paranoid, lost his marriage and his job and has been resident in the psych ward on numerous occasions. I used to get up to a dozen emails a day from him, all very long, all totally irrational, although with the occasional flash of brilliance. He once was a highly talented mechanic working on the big mining equipment. He was prescribed medication which had the desired effect of bringing him back to reality, however the side effects were such that he stopped taking the meds and his condition returned. The unfortunate thing is you can't reason with him because in his mind, he is totally rational and the world just can't see that. The emails I received were CCd to the Australian Prime Minister, various Federal Ministers,the state Premier, the British Prime Minister and the President of the United States. I was among illustrious company and probably now feature in ASIO, CIA and FBI files as an associate of a nutter.

Just thought I'd share. :asian:
 

Gnarlie

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Great that it took you 4 years. Does that legitimize your training? Does it mean that other people who took shorter, it de-legitimizes?

And sorry, but when you're talking 120 hours versus 2100 hours, YES.
 

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