Let's talk about fat people

Thesemindz

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So tonight I'm delivering a pizza to this trailor, and the person who answers the door is this pissed off fat chick who has to weigh four hundred pounds. Easily.

And while she's glaring at me, I start working some self defense scenarios through my head. I'm looking at the door and thinking about slamming it into her as I retreat, and I'm checking my footing on her porch steps, and I'm planning to throw the pizza bag at her feet to try and trip her up. Nothing I don't do at every single delivery. But I get to thinking. This chick is huge. She's at least as tall as I am, and half again as wide. She's big, and pissed off, and I don't really want to get in a fight with her.

Of course, nothing happened, she paid for the pizza and I went on my way. But this got me thinking about fat people.

Now, I'm not thin. In fact, I'm fat. I wasn't always, but I am now, and I need to work on that. But I also know, because I've done martial arts both fat and thin, that the extra weight changes my fighting style, a lot.

I started fat, and learned to use my "back up mass" to throw my opponents around. I learned to use my elbow strikes as pushes to move around people smaller than me. When I lost the weight, these things didn't work anymore. I had to relearn how to use certain moves and techniques to adjust for my greatly decreased body mass. Now I'm fat again, and can use the old stuff, but I've lost the speed I had when I was smaller.

So in the past when I've fought fat people in the dojo, it affected my strategy. They're harder to grapple, harder to strike, and harder to escape. In a confined space, they take up more room and are harder to evade. I've grappled with people so fat I couldn't mount them correctly, and had to resort to less effective "cowboy" style mounts. The extra layers of fat can protect their internal targets to some degree, and help to dissipate the force of strikes.

All those things don't necessarily make them harder to fight, it just means you have to fight them differently. Smaller, more fit people may be faster, and have more endurance, or they may strike with more snapping and whipping strikes. Don't underestimate a fat person's endurance though. After years of training, I had a more developed cardiovascular system than many of my thinner contemporaries, and could run circles around them sparring and grappling after they gassed. Fatness and thinness don't necessarily equate to fitness.

So what do you guys think? I don't want this to turn into fat bashing. I'm fat too. I get it. I just want to discuss approaches to fighting overweight people, and what you've learned or observed in doing so.


-Rob
 

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Hello, A good defense to learn is "running" ...fat people can't run far...?

" Off course this technique need to be weight?" because if you are fat too? How far can you run?

Aloha, There is a Luau tomorrow? ...anyone wants to join us?
 

jarrod

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I've grappled with people so fat I couldn't mount them correctly, and had to resort to less effective "cowboy" style mounts. The extra layers of fat can protect their internal targets to some degree, and help to dissipate the force of strikes.

i'm not sure what you mean by a cowboy mount, but when i have mount on someone with a big belly, i'll lift up one knee, let's say my left, & dig my left heel in tight to their body, with my toes pointing away from them. it works better if your body is upright, but it can work low too. i don't think it's better or worse, but you're right, you do have to do something different for certain body types.

as for your job, just throw the pizza one way & run the other. i bet you're safer than the pizza.

jf
 
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Thesemindz

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Hello, A good defense to learn is "running" ...fat people can't run far...?

" Off course this technique need to be weight?" because if you are fat too? How far can you run?

Aloha, There is a Luau tomorrow? ...anyone wants to join us?

While your approach certainly has merit, you might be surprised at how quickly fat people may be able to move over short distances.

But all and all, this isn't a bad approach to self defense in general. I always said that avoiding dangerous situations is 99% of self defense. Another .9 percent is running away from violent situations you can't avoid. Only that last .01 percent is actually having to fight, whether the opponent is fat or not. Of course, this assumes your motivation is true self defense, and not mutual combat or saving face.

All that aside though, what about those situations where you might actually have to fight a fat person? For instance, here's a video of a fat chick beating up a smaller skinnier guy. Warning, language.


-Rob
 
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Thesemindz

Thesemindz

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i'm not sure what you mean by a cowboy mount, but when i have mount on someone with a big belly, i'll lift up one knee, let's say my left, & dig my left heel in tight to their body, with my toes pointing away from them. it works better if your body is upright, but it can work low too. i don't think it's better or worse, but you're right, you do have to do something different for certain body types.

Yah, that's sorta what I'm talking about. It's where one knee is down like in a normal mount, but the other knee is up with your foot on the ground. It leaves you less stable and at a slight angle to your opponent, but you have to make adjustments.

as for your job, just throw the pizza one way & run the other. i bet you're safer than the pizza.

Ha! You may be right. In a real self defense situation, I'd probably throw the pizza high at their face and come in striking beneath it, work a takedown, stomp and run. But it all depends on the context.

Home delivery is consistently in the top ten most lethal jobs in America. Most of those fatalities occur as a result of driving accidents, but a significant number are the result of robberies. I've personally known several people, including my father, who have been violently assaulted on the job delivering pizzas as part of a robbery. It happens, and when it does, you better have a plan.

So I don't screw around. I always have a plan. And on more than one occasion, I've walked away from a delivery when things looked hinky. The extra buck fifty aint worth it. Having a plan might not save my life, but not having one definitely won't.


-Rob
 

jarrod

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it's always surprised my how many delivery drivers do their job bombed out of their minds. even if you aren't a martial artist, it seems like a good idea to have your wits about you when you go to other peoples houses late at night for a living. not to mention it's not very safe driving. plus running through those scenarios is just good mental training.

jf
 
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Thesemindz

Thesemindz

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it's always surprised my how many delivery drivers do their job bombed out of their minds. even if you aren't a martial artist, it seems like a good idea to have your wits about you when you go to other peoples houses late at night for a living. not to mention it's not very safe driving. plus running through those scenarios is just good mental training.

jf

I won't lie, there's a fair bit of drug use, and abuse, in pizza delivery. Any time you have large quantities of easy cash, undereducated young people, and relatively low standards for employment, you're going to have some irresponsible behavior amongst your crew. It is what it is.

At the same time, in pizza delivery I've worked with people who hold masters and doctorates. I've worked with preachers and teachers. I've worked with men who were on both sides of the korean war. It's a good job which requires little out of the employee. A full time pizza driver working the right hours can make the equivalent of a $36,000 dollar a year job in take home pay. I have a friend who has a masters degree in accounting and works as a CPA who doesn't make much more than that, and he works a hell of a lot more than forty hours on salary.

It is what it is. But I have a family. So I look left twice before pulling out into traffic, and when I walk up to a door, I look around the bushes for anybody waiting to jump me, and I keep my footing when they answer the door.

I'm not paranoid, but I am careful.


-Rob
 

Flea

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Honestly, it never dawned on me that delivery people could be targets for robbery. I've never done that work myself, but none of my friends who have told me anything to that effect either. One friend said customers would often call in after the fact with bizarre manufactured complaints (your delivery guy threatened to rape me!) to get a refund. People are weird. People are so weird.

As for the fat question, have you watched much sumo? I'd imagine you'd pick up some worthwhile stuff there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue171yjKmA&feature=related
 

searcher

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Thesemindz-when it comes to the size of a person I look at th targets that are exposed on ALL people(ears, eyes, etc.). No matter the size, if you pop their eardrum or you take out an eye, they are going down. Or they will at least be rendered senseless for a short time. Time enough to get away.

Also think about your breathing. Try to keep it smooth and even plus they need to be irritated. This will allow them to get short-winded very quickly(most people get that way even if they are in shape) and for you to still be fresh. A winded BG is easier to control and most will give up in short order. JMO.
 

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So tonight I'm delivering a pizza to this trailor, and the person who answers the door is this pissed off fat chick who has to weigh four hundred pounds. Easily.

And while she's glaring at me, I start working some self defense scenarios through my head. I'm looking at the door and thinking about slamming it into her as I retreat, and I'm checking my footing on her porch steps, and I'm planning to throw the pizza bag at her feet to try and trip her up. Nothing I don't do at every single delivery. But I get to thinking. This chick is huge. She's at least as tall as I am, and half again as wide. She's big, and pissed off, and I don't really want to get in a fight with her.

Of course, nothing happened, she paid for the pizza and I went on my way. But this got me thinking about fat people.

Now, I'm not thin. In fact, I'm fat. I wasn't always, but I am now, and I need to work on that. But I also know, because I've done martial arts both fat and thin, that the extra weight changes my fighting style, a lot.

I started fat, and learned to use my "back up mass" to throw my opponents around. I learned to use my elbow strikes as pushes to move around people smaller than me. When I lost the weight, these things didn't work anymore. I had to relearn how to use certain moves and techniques to adjust for my greatly decreased body mass. Now I'm fat again, and can use the old stuff, but I've lost the speed I had when I was smaller.

So in the past when I've fought fat people in the dojo, it affected my strategy. They're harder to grapple, harder to strike, and harder to escape. In a confined space, they take up more room and are harder to evade. I've grappled with people so fat I couldn't mount them correctly, and had to resort to less effective "cowboy" style mounts. The extra layers of fat can protect their internal targets to some degree, and help to dissipate the force of strikes.

All those things don't necessarily make them harder to fight, it just means you have to fight them differently. Smaller, more fit people may be faster, and have more endurance, or they may strike with more snapping and whipping strikes. Don't underestimate a fat person's endurance though. After years of training, I had a more developed cardiovascular system than many of my thinner contemporaries, and could run circles around them sparring and grappling after they gassed. Fatness and thinness don't necessarily equate to fitness.

So what do you guys think? I don't want this to turn into fat bashing. I'm fat too. I get it. I just want to discuss approaches to fighting overweight people, and what you've learned or observed in doing so.


-Rob

Some large people can be pretty surprising with how quick they move, strength, etc. While someone may be overweight, IMO, I don't think that should mean that they're going to be easy. However, from all of those that I have seen, stamina is usually their downfall.

Now, I'll give my thoughts on the dojo and in the real world.

Dojo: As far as sparring goes, I think the best thing to do would be to use timing and wait until they're tired. Their size may or may not hinder movement, so it may come down to the waiting game. Of course, just because it may be more difficult to roll with them, do techniques on them, etc., that doesnt mean that its impossible. You will just have to work harder on what you're doing.

Real life: Hitting them in the stomach may not prove as effective for the obvious reasons. However, no matter how big someone may be, there are still targets that will wear them down. I would suggest: kicking at the legs. I'm not talking about a front kick, I'm talking about a solid round kick to the thigh. I don't care how conditioned someone may be, a hit to the groin is an effective strike. I would also suggest getting them on the defense. This would require overwhelming them so quick, that they don't have a chance to think about much.
 

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Some large people can be pretty surprising with how quick they move, strength, etc. While someone may be overweight, IMO, I don't think that should mean that they're going to be easy. However, from all of those that I have seen, stamina is usually their downfall.

Now, I'll give my thoughts on the dojo and in the real world.

Dojo: As far as sparring goes, I think the best thing to do would be to use timing and wait until they're tired. Their size may or may not hinder movement, so it may come down to the waiting game. Of course, just because it may be more difficult to roll with them, do techniques on them, etc., that doesnt mean that its impossible. You will just have to work harder on what you're doing.

Real life: Hitting them in the stomach may not prove as effective for the obvious reasons. However, no matter how big someone may be, there are still targets that will wear them down. I would suggest: kicking at the legs. I'm not talking about a front kick, I'm talking about a solid round kick to the thigh. I don't care how conditioned someone may be, a hit to the groin is an effective strike. I would also suggest getting them on the defense. This would require overwhelming them so quick, that they don't have a chance to think about much.

I know some very large individuals that are really, really dangerous people. They utilize their size, weight as an advantage and it can be a tremendous advantage in the moment if used properly.
 

terryl965

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I've got plenty of faults ... like being tasteless for one. But as you said, what people think of me matters not unless you are giving me a pay check.

But back to my original point, the midsection's pretty much useless in their case. waste of energy for too little results. Go for the legs and watch out for the arms. Try to keep some distance and maybe they'll gas.

Probaly some good advice about the legs, but that would be against most people.
 

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True, but the mid-section is more impervious to punches on a fat person so it makes more sense to go for the legs. Same punch at a smaller person to the midsection would yield more damage. Spear hand strikes, maybe.
 
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Thesemindz

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In an effort to re-rail...I've also noticed a significant issue with trying to apply joint locks, chokes, and hugs and holds on fat people.

I know that they're joints are still vulnerable, because I had my knee wrenched by a training partner once about eight years ago resulting in an injury that's never fully healed, and still hurts from time to time. That being said, most people aren't able to apply effective bear hugs to me because by the time their arms come around, they can't get a good solid grip on me.

As to chokes, in class one night we were doing a drill where we would engage an opponent at 12 oclock in a side headlock, perform a sacrifice fall backwards, taking our opponent over our heads and end in a neck tweak or worse. As we rotated around, I got partnered up with a big fat guy. During the drill, I could barely keep the headlock on him as I fell backwards, and had to release it early as I flipped him over to avoid injurying him badly. In addition to having to reach further to get my arm around his neck, his additional weight added a lot more momentum to the filp, and often resulted in him getting thrown further away when I landed.

Being bigger and heavier works both for and against fat people. It may cause them to gas, but it may also add significant mass to their strikes. It may slow them down, but they may be able to fill enough space to keep you from escaping. And don't make the mistake of thinking fat means no endurance. Like I said earlier, some fat people can run circles around skinny little punks who's only exercise is lighting a joint.

What techniques in your system would you have to adapt for effectiveness against fat people?


-Rob
 

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Remember the K-1 fight of Bob Sapp vs Ernesto Hoost. Sapp was HUGE. Hoost lost but Sapp was too banged up to continue. Hoost kicked his legs all up.
 
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Thesemindz

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Here's another example of a fat versus skinny fight.


Notice the use of primarily unaimed wide swinging hand strikes, and the way the fat guy is able to dominate the small space.


-Rob
 
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Omar B

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Remember the K-1 fight of Bob Sapp vs Ernesto Hoost. Sapp was HUGE. Hoost lost but Sapp was too banged up to continue. Hoost kicked his legs all up.

Great, an example of what I was trying to say, thanks.

As for the joints thing. I'm no grappler at all, but I've found that certain pressure points (around the arm pits, wrists, below the clavicle, etc) need a great deal more pressure and more precision for them to work. So more bulk on you might help in that way.

Chop them down at the legs, works every time.
 
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Thesemindz

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Here's a video of two amateur fat guys having a boxing match.


Notice how many step through punches you see? I thought those never happened.


-Rob
 
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geezer

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I'd be careful making assumptions based on appearance alone. I'm pretty fit for an old guy, but to be honest, I'm not that tough. One of my instructors, by comparison, has let himself go, and frankly, is pretty fat. ...And short. ...And powerful. ...And damned fast. Now if someone is morbidly obese, that's bound to affect their abilities. But otherwise, I wouldn't assume anything. You could be knocked out before the fat guy, or girl, gets out of breath!
 

Aiki Lee

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I used to train with a man in To Shin Do who was a LARGE individual. He didn't move at lightning speeds, but his movement didn't seem any slower than anyone else. I think fat people can fight as effectively as anyone else, just perhaps not as long.

One thing though was during bo practice he would snap peoples oak bo in half when he hit them, because he used his entire body weight. One strike from him was enough to kill a man I think.
 
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