Can an underweight man realistically protect himself/fight his way out of a situation?

[K-man]

Did I start an almost 100 page thread? Add that to the old resume...

Don't get too carried away. Your best thread didn't even make 100'posts.

Back to the MMA vs TMA I guess. MJS brought up a good point. Its either or. Either self defense training works or it does not, regardless of TMA vs MMA. And we all know it works for the most part. No one is invincible, but good training is enough to save your own life.

Don't rely on 'good training'. Good training could be for a variety of reasons and may be totally useless in a fight. Good RB training gives you a good chance of defending yourself.

My whole problem now is the "realistically" part. If you are being mugged, you give your wallet. If being challenged to a fight, you avoid it (if possible). That leaves self defense for mainly against a crazed/multiple crazed attackers (most likely with weapons). Knockout game, rapists, being jumped, ect. A singular (and most likely unarmed guy) vs.

Not always. Some fights just develop around you, usually fuelled by alcohol. You may need your training to simply get away from a melee.

As was brought up before, fighting spirit counts for a lot. With out it, even the best instructors would loose. With it, untrained people would win.

Fighting spirit is good, experience and ability counts more, IMHO.

So, back to MJS's comment: for true self defense, does almost everything come down to the fighting spirit, to the extent that training almost becomes a singular factor, such as endurance?

Simple answer to your last point .... no! And, in most fights endurance isn't an issue either, unless you're talking competition fighting.
:asian:

 

[MJS]

Did I start an almost 100 page thread? Add that to the old resume...

LOL! No, that would be the one I started here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112643-Sport-And-TMA-Again

K-Man and I were just making the reference to that other thread, because lately, it seems like certain threads tend to drift towards a MMA discussion, even when that's not the original topic.

Back to the MMA vs TMA I guess. MJS brought up a good point. Its either or. Either self defense training works or it does not, regardless of TMA vs MMA. And we all know it works for the most part. No one is invincible, but good training is enough to save your own life.

Agreed!!

My whole problem now is the "realistically" part. If you are being mugged, you give your wallet. If being challenged to a fight, you avoid it (if possible). That leaves self defense for mainly against a crazed/multiple crazed attackers (most likely with weapons). Knockout game, rapists, being jumped, ect. A singular (and most likely unarmed guy) vs.

Yup. Although situation depending, I personally don't always agree with the compliance with the mugger, but again, that's just me. Of course, it's possible to go your entire life or a good part of it, and never have to defend yourself. However, I'd rather have the skills and not need them, than to need them and wish I had 'em.

As was brought up before, fighting spirit counts for a lot. With out it, even the best instructors would loose. With it, untrained people would win.

So, back to MJS's comment: for true self defense, does almost everything come down to the fighting spirit, to the extent that training almost becomes a singular factor, such as endurance?

I would say that having the desire, will, spirit, etc., is important. I've seen people cringe at the idea of doing something that'll hurt someone else. Kind of makes you want to ask them why they're training in the first place. LOL. Of course, that stuff, IMO, is part of it. Being aware, and exercising some good common sense, also goes a very long way.

 

[SENC-33]

Self defense is obviously about avoidance first but if avoidance isn't an option you train to control adrenaline, you train to strike pre-emptively and end the threat and you train to get away as quickly as possible.

If endurance becomes a factor you have failed at the above ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[drewtoby]

Thanks everyone for your contribution! I have one last follow up question...

I now know strength and training are all elements for a self defense situation, with training usually being more helpful.

Knowing this, would it be more beneficial for me to seek out additional training in the summers (being a student, I'll be free) or to start going to the gym for more than just cardio? I'm insanely busy in the winter, but could cram in two days a week for muscle retention. If I start a new art, I may have to go dormant during the winter months or cut back to one lesson a week. I always find time for hapkido year round though

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm... it's actually not something anyone here can answer. We don't know your training, it's focus, your level of ability, your training, your schedule (aside from the vague impression given here), what you actually need to focus on, where you need improvement, or anything else that would factor into an informed answer.

In general, though, more of the same training (for consistency and improvement) would be my advice... either more classes (at the same art) or more home training. Cardio is the best usage of your gym time.

 

[Zero]

Muscle is of course a major part of self defense, only a professional fighter would stand a chance in a fight against a 2 meter tall Strong man competitor, your average club black belt wouldnt stand a chance.

Hey Kofo (if you still about)!
A lot of what you have said in your posts does have some hard truths to it Kofo. But the above (and sorry for not commenting on this the other day when this thread was hotter than a wildfire), without qualification (which is a view so often seen), does bug me and is far from the truth.
Yes, if a large bodybuilder/power lifter or strongman gets you in a tight grip, boxed in a corner or ends up on top of you, you may be in trouble. But don't be thinking that the muscles and strength necessarily makes them able to deliver more effective blows than a trained and experienced fighter or that they know what to do with such strength, such as joint locks/kimura etc. The blunt trauma of their blows/swings will be pretty severe, however, I would rather take a shot from them than a top class boxer, even of a lower weight division. Unless they have fight training also, these big guys, due to their size are dangerous, but are not experienced in dishing out hurt - and often not in receiving that kind of hurt. The muscles they have do not protect them (except from front on attacks to torso) from damage. Their knees/joints and jaw are still just as susceptible as anyone elses.
Further, if they do get you in their grips, if you are an experienced grappler or MA practitioner, then the soft targets are still just as viable, they are not used to protecting these or working through the pain of eye gouges, knees/strikes to the groin, frontal throat strikes etc.
Even quite a few bouncers I have come across, some who have been friends or at least acquaintences, are purely of the deterent type, being muscle bound and without flexibility or speed, or any real fighting skill.
Yes, size counts. And yes, a big chap who has hand skills is one to be feared - but your strongman is not in that category.

I am nothing like the strongmen of course but I used to powerlift and have roughhoused in the gym with lifters and body builders who were big guys and that have seen me work the heavy bag in the gym and wanted to have some fun. I can tell you, they don't expect a foot sweep/foot stamp or even high kick to head.

Guys that say of big fighters, ie trained fighters "don't worry, he won't be able to handle your speed" do make me chuckle. But your comment is equally in the same vein.

 

[Zero]

And no, drewtoby didn't pay me (as yet) five bucks to keep this thread going past the 100 post mark...

 

[TKDTony2179]

Nope thats just regular knock outs nothing like this stuff you belive in

Sorry I dont belive in this stuff. And neither does Guy Bloom, having withstanded these tricks,commented to the "instructor" on why he didnt go down. "It just didnt hurt enough"

I believe in the pressure point system but at the same time I don't think it is that easy to do it with a resisting person. Same as some throws and some joint locks. They just about have to be right on time and you must be in the right moment to make it happen. Just like what Chris P. showed in the video of the UFC knock outs those are some points being struck. Behind the ear ( you see that a lot with kicks and punches) and solar pelexus are two number one spot to strike but the ones on the foot, under the eye, on the hands, arms, left pec, under the arms, on the traps, on your back, and where ever else are harder to find and some people just really do have a higher since for pain. I did talk with the guy in the video you posted and yet he said the samething. You do see them in UFC competition but rarely do you see them chain linking the pressure points. Remember, most of the pressure points are just used for acropuncture (forgive me if misspelled.)

 

[wingchun100]

I keep coming back to this question. I'm 6 foot and weigh in at a scale-tipping 140lbs (I run) :mst:, and have been training in hapkido the past several years. I know hapkido is designed to not be dependent on strength, but being so light gives me a lot smaller margin of error with my locks/throws/ect. Also, it makes several throws/locks not viable in a real life scenario.

Then we come to the striking issue: if I am unable to throw or lock my opponent for whatever reason, my strikes have significantly less force than that of a larger person. While it comes down to vital targets, I would take a wrecking ball over a hammer. Oh, and I don't have muscle/fat to help protect me.

The only two things I have going for me are endurance and determination. That and the element of surprise, 2 fold (the side of me most don't know exist, and hapkido). Which, surprise is crucial for hapkido, as most don't expect someone to be able to do some of the things we do.

But, back to the main question: is it realistic for someone like me to be able to protect himself/fight his way out of any surprise situations? Especially against a larger opponent? (multiple opponents are subject to debate for heavier people, so I'll leave this one out for now)

(By fight I mean being cornered, and having no choice but to take the guy(s) down)

I think in most cases it IS possible because, knowing we are at a size disadvantage, we will be more "scrappy" than the other person who thinks they have an easy win on their hand. I am only 5'7", so a lot of people are bigger than me. But if I were cornered, my lack of strength wouldn't be a disadvantage because I would fight "dirty" and use my environment. Maybe that 6 foot tall behemoth won't feel anything if I punch him, but you can bet he will feel it if I use his momentum to send him flying into a brick wall or trip him face-first into the ground.

 

[K-man]

I think in most cases it IS possible because, knowing we are at a size disadvantage, we will be more "scrappy" than the other person who thinks they have an easy win on their hand. I am only 5'7", so a lot of people are bigger than me. But if I were cornered, my lack of strength wouldn't be a disadvantage because I would fight "dirty" and use my environment. Maybe that 6 foot tall behemoth won't feel anything if I punch him, but you can bet he will feel it if I use his momentum to send him flying into a brick wall or trip him face-first into the ground.

And if he is fighting "dirty" as well or if he is well balanced?

 

[wingchun100]

That wasn't the OP's question. He asked if it was realistic for an underweight man to protect himself, and I gave my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

I believe in the pressure point system but at the same time I don't think it is that easy to do it with a resisting person. Same as some throws and some joint locks. They just about have to be right on time and you must be in the right moment to make it happen. Just like what Chris P. showed in the video of the UFC knock outs those are some points being struck. Behind the ear ( you see that a lot with kicks and punches) and solar pelexus are two number one spot to strike but the ones on the foot, under the eye, on the hands, arms, left pec, under the arms, on the traps, on your back, and where ever else are harder to find and some people just really do have a higher since for pain. I did talk with the guy in the video you posted and yet he said the samething. You do see them in UFC competition but rarely do you see them chain linking the pressure points. Remember, most of the pressure points are just used for acropuncture (forgive me if misspelled.)

Punching someone hard behind the ear in the temple and on the jaw might knock someone out. Poking them won't.

 

[K-man]

That wasn't the OP's question. He asked if it was realistic for an underweight man to protect himself, and I gave my opinion.

And I happen to agree with you, but for a different reason. 'Dirty tricks' are part and parcel of my training. I teach them as mainstream, but they are not something you can rely on to win a fight by themselves. You need to know how to enter, how to evade, how to get away as well as how to strike effectively etc. In tournaments I have seen small guys out point big guys on many occasions but that was nothing to do with size. They were just really good fighters.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

If you are small and have to fight what else are you going to do?

Look it is doable. But it is not really the issue.

Get as strong as you can. Get as well trained as you can and you will have more of a chance in a fight. And that is about as good as anyone can hope for.

But just for some inspiration. Here is a chick manhandling a marine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbjf0N1LS-8

 

[K-man]

Punching someone hard behind the ear in the temple and on the jaw might knock someone out. Poking them won't.

True, but vital points are attacked in different ways. The ones you mention are meant to be hit, not poked. They also need to be hit at the right angle. The benefit is if you hit the right place you don't have to hit as hard. Like in wingchun100's comment on dirty tricks, vital points are in the same category. They can enhance your effectiveness but they don't replace your ability to fight effectively.
;asian:

 

[K-man]

If you are small and have to fight what else are you going to do?

Look it is doable. But it is not really the issue.

Get as strong as you can. Get as well trained as you can and you will have more of a chance in a fight. And that is about as good as anyone can hope for.

But just for some inspiration. Here is a chick manhandling a marine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbjf0N1LS-8

Mmm! A sporting contest with rules. Do you think she would have beaten him on the street?

What else are you going to do? Well for a start there is aggression. You see it a lot where it is called 'small man' syndrome. Although that is meant to be a derogatory term in fact it is quite an accurate one. If a small person can harness his aggression, often that alone can be sufficient to turn the tables. How many times do you see a smaller dog get the better of a larger one? Hence the saying by Mark Twain — 'It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.'
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

True, but vital points are attacked in different ways. The ones you mention are meant to be hit, not poked. They also need to be hit at the right angle. The benefit is if you hit the right place you don't have to hit as hard. Like in wingchun100's comment on dirty tricks, vital points are in the same category. They can enhance your effectiveness but they don't replace your ability to fight effectively.
;asian:

It is a combination of hitting hard hitting the right spot and avoiding getting hit in the process. That is a pretty consistent theme for martial artists.

Bodybuilder getting manhandled.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lPrlas4UwS8

 

[drop bear]

Mmm! A sporting contest with rules. Do you think she would have beaten him on the street?

What else are you going to do? Well for a start there is aggression. You see it a lot where it is called 'small man' syndrome. Although that is meant to be a derogatory term in fact it is quite an accurate one. If a small person can harness his aggression, often that alone can be sufficient to turn the tables. How many times do you see a smaller dog get the better of a larger one? Hence the saying by Mark Twain — 'It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.'
:asian:

She beat him under the conditions she was fighting him. I am not sure what else is supposed to be speculated about that.

Aggression is good but not high percentage when you have to train it into someone. So it falls down to you either have it or you don't. Like either being big or not. But being as well trained and getting as strong as you can is something you can actually do.

 

[K-man]

She beat him under the conditions she was fighting him. I am not sure what else is supposed to be speculated about that.

Exactly. But that doesn't address the question I asked.

Aggression is good but not high percentage when you have to train it into someone. So it falls down to you either have it or you don't. Like either being big or not. But being as well trained and getting as strong as you can is something you can actually do.

Being well trained would be a key. Using positive aggression is another. Being strong is relative. It is important when you are young but how important is strength to a 60 yo smaller guy being attacked by a 30 yo thug? The secret to fighting is to attack your opponent's weakness, not his strength. If you are smaller, older or weaker you have to use your smarts, not your testicles.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Being well trained would be a key. Using positive aggression is another. Being strong is relative. It is important when you are young but how important is strength to a 60 yo smaller guy being attacked by a 30 yo thug? The secret to fighting is to attack your opponent's weakness, not his strength. If you are smaller, older or weaker you have to use your smarts, not your testicles.
:asian:

Strength is something you can control good training is something you can control. Developing these will give you the best chance defending an attack.

A 72 year old manhandling a robber.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...face-burglar-got-wrong-72-year-old-boxer.html