Is there really anything you can't teach yourself?
- Thread starter DoubleZ711
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shihansmurf
Black Belt
In that case ya gotta have Patrick Swayze to get you outta there.
Every Road House needs a cooler.....
As an aside, I do think that a person that has a solid level of knowledge and ability in the skill in question can learn and develop from self directed study from books and video, I just don't think that a student can go from zero to hero that way. If a student is already an experienced practitioner of a striking art, for example, then a video on kicking tips will be usefull. If a person is already good at Shotokan then learning Unsu from a tape, in conjunction with feedback from training partners, is fully effective. Someone with no weapons background trying to learn Arnis from a DVD and no teacher would be a recipe for disaster, in my view. The way I see it, books, videos, and the like are great reference material, wonderful support to a live instructor, and outstanding adjunct to live training, but never a replacement.
Just my view
Mark
I can't believe I got to reference RoadHouse. Now my day is complete.
Last edited:
Haze
Blue Belt
The first martial artists had no instructor or he would not have been the first martial artist.
Through out time arts have been passed on and tweaked. But it had to start somewhere.
Now, you can struggle along discovering things and trying to refine them and discard things as you find they do not work or are just to complicated to pull off in a real situation or you can go study under someone who has been taught and can pass it on. This method seems to saves a lot of time.
Through out time arts have been passed on and tweaked. But it had to start somewhere.
Now, you can struggle along discovering things and trying to refine them and discard things as you find they do not work or are just to complicated to pull off in a real situation or you can go study under someone who has been taught and can pass it on. This method seems to saves a lot of time.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
You don't actually believe that there was a "first martial artist" do you? and you don't actually believe that it "had to start somewhere" do you?
Sure, there was a "first" martial artist. Of course, his name was probably something like Grog... and the only thing that made him a "martial artist" was that he was the first one to figure out a slightly more effective way to bonk someone over the head than an instinctive flailing -- and maybe figured out a way to explain it to someone else.
GBlues
Purple Belt
In that case ya gotta have Patrick Swayze to get you outta there.
Every Road House needs a cooler.....
As an aside, I do think that a person that has a solid level of knowledge and ability in the skill in question can learn and develop from self directed study from books and video, I just don't think that a student can go from zero to hero that way. If a student is already an experienced practitioner of a striking art, for example, then a video on kicking tips will be usefull. If a person is already good at Shotokan then learning Unsu from a tape, in conjunction with feedback from training partners, is fully effective. Someone with no weapons background trying to learn Arnis from a DVD and no teacher would be a recipe for disaster, in my view. The way I see it, books, videos, and the like are great reference material, wonderful support to a live instructor, and outstanding adjunct to live training, but never a replacement.
Just my view
Mark
I can't believe I got to reference RoadHouse. Now my day is complete.
Yeah. No I agree with all of you guys, that getting instruction from a good instructor is the way to go everytime. As far as videos and books, and the like go, if you have even a decent foundation you can actually get some very valuable information from them and use some of it to great effect. I think though that it isn't worth a plugged nickel if you don't have somebody to train with, a practice partner. Distance is key. The reality is that the first martial art was probably a grappling style I would think. If you look at animals and even young children, while yes they hit, they wrestle more than they do strike. It's a natural thing, when your young. At least from what I can see. Then some guy comes along who just flat sucks at grappling and says piss on that I'm gonna punch that dude in the face, and there came striking. You know, and it progressed from there. I'm not a 100% sure, but I do believe,( and correct me if I'm wrong), that Musashi was a self taught swordsman. So it is possible to teach yourself combat skills without even a book or dvd. I mean they didn't have dvd's back in those days. LOL! ANyways happy APril fools everybody!
Yeah. No I agree with all of you guys, that getting instruction from a good instructor is the way to go everytime. As far as videos and books, and the like go, if you have even a decent foundation you can actually get some very valuable information from them and use some of it to great effect. I think though that it isn't worth a plugged nickel if you don't have somebody to train with, a practice partner. Distance is key. The reality is that the first martial art was probably a grappling style I would think. If you look at animals and even young children, while yes they hit, they wrestle more than they do strike. It's a natural thing, when your young. At least from what I can see. Then some guy comes along who just flat sucks at grappling and says piss on that I'm gonna punch that dude in the face, and there came striking. You know, and it progressed from there. I'm not a 100% sure, but I do believe,( and correct me if I'm wrong), that Musashi was a self taught swordsman. So it is possible to teach yourself combat skills without even a book or dvd. I mean they didn't have dvd's back in those days. LOL! ANyways happy APril fools everybody!
Bold part mine. I agree with this. For example, I have a few BJJ instructional tapes. I also have grappling teachers. So, while I don't use the tapes to learn from, I use them as a reference. I may find something in the tape, and inquire about it with one of my teachers, and work it from there. But, in this case, I'm working it live, with a teacher, who can correct mistakes, etc.
Zero
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Are you sure the name is correct? I tried googling several permutations, but turned up nothing.
EDIT: D'oh. April fools. Damn. I almost made it through the day without falling for it
Hey thanks Bruno@MT, that really made me laugh!!
Zero
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Okay, April fools crap and all that aside, I generallly agree with the premise that self training and learning from books, video etc, is fine once you are already at a certain level. But maybe there are real examples of those who were so dedicated and gifted (mentally/physically) that almost starting from scratch they could hone themselves into a truely formidable fighter with great skill?
Take Miyamoto Musashi (real deal this time), reknowned as the greatest samurai of all time and probably one of the most lethal swordsman on a global basis. WHile he was witness to fights and involved in a major battle at the age of 16 (I think), from this age, and with not a great deal of formal training (although he was trained in his youth by his father(?) and uncle in sword and jitte), he pretty much exilled himself to a life of exclusive training. Spending much time on his own in the wilds experimenting and perfecting the art of sword fighting with katana. Although there are varying accounts of his unorthodox methods and lack of "honor/sportmanship" in fighting, he was undefeated in live blade combat and attained a level where no one could better him. This guy fought live blade, kill or be killed duels.
Take Miyamoto Musashi (real deal this time), reknowned as the greatest samurai of all time and probably one of the most lethal swordsman on a global basis. WHile he was witness to fights and involved in a major battle at the age of 16 (I think), from this age, and with not a great deal of formal training (although he was trained in his youth by his father(?) and uncle in sword and jitte), he pretty much exilled himself to a life of exclusive training. Spending much time on his own in the wilds experimenting and perfecting the art of sword fighting with katana. Although there are varying accounts of his unorthodox methods and lack of "honor/sportmanship" in fighting, he was undefeated in live blade combat and attained a level where no one could better him. This guy fought live blade, kill or be killed duels.
The first martial artist (as we define martial artist in the west) would have been the first person to successfully codify numerous techniques into a single body of knowledge for the express purpose of transmitting it to others.
So from that standpoint, yes, someone would have been the first. Before that, though, people certainly passed on the how to's of war and fighting as it pertained to their particular region.
Honestly, I really hate the term, 'martial artist' when applied in an historical or ancient world context. It sound so.... hokey. 'Martial' artist is a modern term that came about when Asian fighting systems were brought to the west in the twentieth century, so far as I know at least.
Daniel
Bruno@MT
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Yep. Moose is the real deal, and had the documented kills and the legacy to prove it.
But (there was going to be a but, of course
)- He did get a fairly thorough basic training in various weapons arts.
- He spent most of his waking time working on his skills instead of 1 hour distance learning per day.
- There is a reason everyone and his dog knows Musashi. He was truly exceptional. Even in his day, when sword fighting was important and every samurai learned the art, the vast majority, even the ones with a lifetime of formal training could not compare to him.
Not a great deal of formal training? I'd question that.
If dad and uncle trained him from the time he was a young child until he was sixteen, I'd say that that is quite a bit. Keep in mind that in his day, many people learned a family style, or a style that was associated with a locale or region. His training may not have been at a formal institution, but I'd be willing to bet that it was more formal and more comprehensive than what most westerners have, even after several years.
Daniel
blindsage
Master of Arts
Sooo, basically the Musashi example does not in anyway provide support for the OP.
Besides the fact that leaving all possible legendary embellishments aside, what if Musashi was this prodigy that without much training he was able to teach himself to be one of the greatest swordsmen in history? Would that in any way back the assertion that the 99.9999999% of humanity that didn't have his gifts could replicate them, and don't need an instructor? Probably not.
Besides the fact that leaving all possible legendary embellishments aside, what if Musashi was this prodigy that without much training he was able to teach himself to be one of the greatest swordsmen in history? Would that in any way back the assertion that the 99.9999999% of humanity that didn't have his gifts could replicate them, and don't need an instructor? Probably not.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
I agree with the above posts about musashi, but I'll throw in a few other things.
According to Keji Tokitsu's research on Musashi, he drew the conclusion that Musashi did have much formal training with his father or other warriors that he may have encountered on his journey like at the hozoin temple or with the yagyu clan. Not to mention that this was an era where musashi could consistantly test his ideas through duels to the death, so I'm sure he did everything he could to discover the most useful fighting methods, which logically assumes he would have studied other systems (even if just through observations and discussions with warriors) to see what they did to come up with a way to beat it.
According to Keji Tokitsu's research on Musashi, he drew the conclusion that Musashi did have much formal training with his father or other warriors that he may have encountered on his journey like at the hozoin temple or with the yagyu clan. Not to mention that this was an era where musashi could consistantly test his ideas through duels to the death, so I'm sure he did everything he could to discover the most useful fighting methods, which logically assumes he would have studied other systems (even if just through observations and discussions with warriors) to see what they did to come up with a way to beat it.
