Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

elder999

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Karate.

Of course all of that is irrelevant to the main point; All of those are modern styles of Karate.

May as well say, then, that all karate are modern styles of karate-only some with free-sparring, and some without.

How are you making that differentiation? What karate would you say is "not modern?"
 
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Hanzou

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May as well say, then, that all karate are modern styles of karate-only some with free-sparring, and some without.

How are you making that differentiation? What karate would you say is "not modern?"

Pre-War and Post-War. Pre-War tends to be more traditional. Post-War is more modern.
 

PhotonGuy

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I checked out the link and I would say her main problem was that when she was attacked she was in the white. She was out enjoying a walk and was oblivious to her surroundings and that's why the attacker was able to surprise her. She needed to be in the yellow. You should be in the yellow whenever you go out. She ended up with broken ribs and bruising but had the stranger not arrived and scared off her attacker she probably would've faired much worse. Some grappling experience definitely would've helped her and I think for all martial arts practitioners its good to be well rounded in both striking and grappling. Also, for women defenders especially I think its important to go to the most vulnerable areas such as the eyes. Instead of punching him in the face it might've been more effective if she had attacked his eyes, especially if she has long nails.
 

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I'm curious where you get the idea that I believe that Bjj is "invincible". I'm in agreement with you that it is very important. Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it. Further, since the majority of my martial arts experience in grappling, that's the perspective I'm coming from. I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style. I've gotten that charge simply by asking why Kung Fu and Karate while engaged in fighting doesn't resemble pre-arranged forms that are supposedly so integral to their system.

And of course comes the childish charge that I simply don't understand traditional styles, which sounds like a snake oil salesman who gives you a tonic that doesn't do what its supposed to do.

Here's what I do understand; I understand that my experiences with traditional martial arts line up perfectly with those Asian martial artists slapping themselves silly on the streets of China. They even line up perfectly with the video of that Karate guy wildly hitting that pimp and knocking him unconscious by pure luck. You really think I don't know why karate guys don't fight like their katas? You really think I don't know why a Taiji master can't stop a simple takedown? You really think I don't know why Wing Chun and Aikido guys came up with that anti-grappling nonsense? You really think I don't understand why Stephen Hayes can't come up with a simple counter to the guard?

I know the answers to all of those questions. I'm simply seeking some honesty, and to date, I have yet to receive any. :( That's okay though. It's what I've come to expect from a certain segment of the MA community.
Oh n the nonsense!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 

drop bear

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I checked out the link and I would say her main problem was that when she was attacked she was in the white. She was out enjoying a walk and was oblivious to her surroundings and that's why the attacker was able to surprise her. She needed to be in the yellow. You should be in the yellow whenever you go out. She ended up with broken ribs and bruising but had the stranger not arrived and scared off her attacker she probably would've faired much worse. Some grappling experience definitely would've helped her and I think for all martial arts practitioners its good to be well rounded in both striking and grappling. Also, for women defenders especially I think its important to go to the most vulnerable areas such as the eyes. Instead of punching him in the face it might've been more effective if she had attacked his eyes, especially if she has long nails.

Big call from what is a random attack.
 

K-man

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Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it.
Now that is an out and out deliberate untruth. This is your first contribution to a thread I started to seriously discuss bunkai. It is actually the first reply to my OP.

Unfortunately, I'm forced to define Bunkai as a method to make up techniques that have nothing to do with the kata itself. I have yet to run across any consistent methodology to break down bunkai, nor have I seen anyone utilize bunkai in an alive manner. We only see bunkai utilized for demonstration purposes.

In my honest opinion, bunkai has been simply manufactured in order to give some meaning to kata practice; A practice that is rapidly losing ground to more direct methods of instruction that have abandoned the practice of kata altogether. I still believe that karate would be better off by eliminating kata, increase sparring practice, and teach the techniques themselves in a method similar to boxing or MMA.

That's simply MY opinion though.
Denying the existance of bunkai makes it hard to make a positive contribution. Then of course you come back to the usual boxing or MMA is better. There was no reference to MMA before you brought it up.


Further, since the majority of my martial arts experience in grappling, that's the perspective I'm coming from. I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style. I've gotten that charge simply by asking why Kung Fu and Karate while engaged in fighting doesn't resemble pre-arranged forms that are supposedly so integral to their system.
You have had your question answered by numerous people many times. You refuse to accept any of their answers despite the fact that many members are talking as highly ranked instructors of those styles.

And of course comes the childish charge that I simply don't understand traditional styles, which sounds like a snake oil salesman who gives you a tonic that doesn't do what its supposed to do.
Well quite simply, you have comprehensively demonstrated you don't.

Here's what I do understand; I understand that my experiences with traditional martial arts line up perfectly with those Asian martial artists slapping themselves silly on the streets of China. They even line up perfectly with the video of that Karate guy wildly hitting that pimp and knocking him unconscious by pure luck. You really think I don't know why karate guys don't fight like their katas? You really think I don't know why a Taiji master can't stop a simple takedown? You really think I don't know why Wing Chun and Aikido guys came up with that anti-grappling nonsense? You really think I don't understand why Stephen Hayes can't come up with a simple counter to the guard?
And none of these statements are putting down other styles? Even a new one here ... now even Aikido has 'anti-grappling' 'nonsense.

I know the answers to all of those questions. I'm simply seeking some honesty, and to date, I have yet to receive any. :( That's okay though. It's what I've come to expect from a certain segment of the MA community.
OK. Let's look at honesty.

"I know the answers to all of those questions." Your don't or if you do you are not being honest in the rest of your posts where you question what people are saying.

"In my honest opinion, bunkai has been simply manufactured in order to give some meaning to kata practice; A practice that is rapidly losing ground to more direct methods of instruction that have abandoned the practice of kata altogether. I still believe that karate would be better off by eliminating kata, increase sparring practice, and teach the techniques themselves in a method similar to boxing or MMA."

Easily demonstrated to be false so why is it still "your opinion" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? When you first came onto MT you didn't even know that kata and bunkai were separate things.

And honesty?
"I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it."
 
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Hanzou

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Now that is an out and out deliberate untruth. This is your first contribution to a thread I started to seriously discuss bunkai. It is actually the first reply to my OP.

Denying the existance of bunkai makes it hard to make a positive contribution. Then of course you come back to the usual boxing or MMA is better. There was no reference to MMA before you brought it up.

Boxing and MMA are the same as Bjj? When did that happen?


You have had your question answered by numerous people many times. You refuse to accept any of their answers despite the fact that many members are talking as highly ranked instructors of those styles.

The only answer I've ever gotten was that I don't "understand" kata or bunkai. When others asked the same question, they got the same answer. It's interesting that Ashihara and Enshin Karate changed the traditional kata completely to make them more fighter-friendly. Did Hideyuki Ashihara and Jk Ninomiya not understand kata and bunkai either? Their sparring looks a heck of a lot better than anything I've seen out of Goju, Shotokan, Wado, or any of the older Karate styles, so maybe they're on to something?

And none of these statements are putting down other styles? Even a new one here ... now even Aikido has 'anti-grappling' 'nonsense.


Anti-grappling nonsense.
 

drop bear

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What's "traditional?" As in :"Pre-war tends to be more traditional...." just to be clear, how do you differentiate "more traditional" from "more modern" when it comes to karate?

I don't know. I jeep getting told tma,s don't spar. Although I generally consider traditional as wearing a gi.
 
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Hanzou

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I don't know. I jeep getting told tma,s don't spar. Although I generally consider traditional as wearing a gi.

Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing. Those styles are often called "fighting Karate", and if I ever get back into Karate again, it would be in one of those styles. Probably Ashihara or Enshin, since they're not as kata-heavy.
 

drop bear

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Now lets look at the really fun bits white we are getting all snarky.

Sports mentality vs a life or death fight. Beating people with punches choking people out untill they pass out and letting them go. It seems there just might be an overlap here.

The super serious stress of a street fight making you into a gumby without some sort of specialized street geared psychological training. (coming to you at the low low price of....)

It seem both of these women could come up with a plan of attack and apply it successfully. And where I did meet resistance change that plan.

Which does not sound at all like the mind shattering stress that. Forces people into gross motor movements.
 

drop bear

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Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing. Those styles are often called "fighting Karate", and if I ever get back into Karate again, it would be in one of those styles. Probably Ashihara or Enshin, since they're not as kata-heavy.

But still considered a tma? I mean most styles we do are generally pretty young.

Actually I am going to help train a kk guy for a comp. So will get my no face punching.
 

elder999

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Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing..

NO!

Kyokushin was "fighting karate," the "strongest karate" long before going to Thailand and fighting Muay Thai fighters-something that occurred mostly in the late 60's and 70s (Ninomiya Joko was one guy who went to Thailand to fight) .....or any influence from Muay THati-like I posted, we were fighting full-contact, bare knuckle when I was a child-in the early 70's, and didn't see kicks to the thigh until around 1973 or '74.....while many kyokushin fighters have become kickboxers over the years, kyokushin is not "karate+kickboxong." it's karate...and I'd have to ask (since I'm the 3rd dan in kyokushin, and you're the whatever belt in BJJ)
what's not "traditional" about the taikyoku kata, the pinan kata,kanku dai, bassai dai, sushiho or naihanchidz, gekkisai, sanchin or tensho kata? Because they're the biggest chunk of kyokushin......(and they're all "pre-war," so I'm confused.....not )

Oh, and here's some guys fighting like they do kata....just for you:

and some shotokan guys fighting with bunkai:

 
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elder999

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Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing..

NO!

Kyokushin was "fighting karate," the "strongest karate" long before going to Thailand and fighting Muay Thai fighters-something that occurred mostly in the late 60's and 70s (Ninomiya Joko was one guy who went to Thailand to fight) .....or any influence from Muay THati-like I posted, we were fighting full-contact, bare knuckle when I was a child-in the early 70's, and didn't see kicks to the thigh until around 1973 or '74.....while many kyokushin fighters have become kickboxers over the years, kyokushin is not "karate+kickboxong." it's karate...and I'd have to ask (since I'm the 3rd dan in kyokushin, and you're the yellow belt in BJJ)
what's not "traditional" about the taikyoku kata, the pinan kata,kanlu dai, bassai dai, sushiho or naihanchidz, gekkisai, sanchin or tensho kata? Because they're the biggest chunk of kyokushin......(and they're all "pre-war," so I'm confused.....not )

Oh, and here's some guys fighting like they do kata....just for you:

and some shotokan guys fighting with bunkai:

 

elder999

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Sorry about the double post...can't seem to post as quickly...can't seem to edit or delete....I'm so......"discouraged." .......not.
rolling.gif


I mean.....bite me......
rolling.gif
 
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elder999

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Bondly. Did Hideyuki Ashihara and Jk Ninomiya not understand kata and bunkai either?

No. As I posted elsewhere and earlier, you can think of their karate as being reduced to bunkai-without the kata-all fighting,way less spiritual development (though there's plenty of fighting spirit, there's not as much personal devlopment-it's the same conversation I've had with Ninomiya sensei for, well, decades, every time he's tried to convert me....I like kata....)
 
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Hanzou

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NO!

Kyokushin was "fighting karate," the "strongest karate" long before going to Thailand and fighting Muay Thai fighters-something that occurred mostly in the late 60's and 70s (Ninomiya Joko was one guy who went to Thailand to fight) .....or any influence from Muay THati-like I posted, we were fighting full-contact, bare knuckle when I was a child-in the early 70's, and didn't see kicks to the thigh until around 1973 or '74.....while many kyokushin fighters have become kickboxers over the years, kyokushin is not "karate+kickboxong." it's karate...and I'd have to ask (since I'm the 3rd dan in kyokushin, and you're the yellow belt in BJJ)
what's not "traditional" about the taikyoku kata, the pinan kata,kanlu dai, bassai dai, sushiho or naihanchidz, gekkisai, sanchin or tensho kata? Because they're the biggest chunk of kyokushin......(and they're all "pre-war," so I'm confused.....not )

Oh brother.... :rolleyes:

How about we just forget I mentioned Kyokushin so your panties don't get into a bunch and we can get back to the topic, k?

Also there are no yellow belts in Bjj.


Oh, and here's some guys fighting like they do kata....just for you:

One looks like kickboxing without the head shots, and the other is point sparring trash.
 

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