Make self-defense for girls mandatory!!

[Loki]

I've been trying to get my 10 year-old sister to learn self-defense for two years now, but no good.

This morning every major Israeli newspaper had the same headline: "15 year old girl murdered for no reason". The killer was a juvenile delinquent who was given a weekend vacation from an institute that morning. He was drunk and high on contact glue fumes. She was on the way to the mall from her house, few minutes walk all in well-lit areas, when he attacked and choked her to death. When asked why he did it, he said "dunno".

My mom, shocked at this, told my sister who was reading the article with her: "You know, if she learned self-defense, she probably would still be alive."

Reading this myself, I was shocked twice. Once for the sheer randomality of the murder (doesn't happen often here), twice because I learned the response to that situation exactly in my first MA lesson.

Most girls in Israel (and most of the world, I assume) have not the faintest idea in self-defense (except MAYBE an awkward kick to the nuts). Girls who don't train in MA, are naturally tough or learn some basic form of self-defense have no idea what to do in case of an attack, much less expect one in advance.

My thoughts on the subject of mandatory self-defense classes for high school girls have been coming and going for the past two years, but this is has gone too far. Self-defense has to be taught in high school. A four-point average means nothing if you're dead.

I know that random violence is relatively rare and I'm probably being a bit emotional because of this event, but I honestly think that our sisters, daughters and girlfriends should have some idea of how to defend themselves.

What do you think?

~ Loki

 

[Flatlander]

I think that this idea has a number of problems.

For example, is it sexist? Why girls only? Who compiles the curriculum? Where is it delivered? How do you enforce it, given that its "mandatory"? What measure of certainty do you have that it will be effective? Who funds it? At what age should they start? Finish? What do the boys do while the girls are doing this? Who shall be held responsible when girls continue to die, even after they've been trained? Should this be exclusively in Israel, or global in scope? What about the women who are no longer in school? Do they get ignored? How do you see the mindset of the male criminal evolving with the change in the defensive ability of the victim? How do you propose to keep up with that?

Just off the top of my head...

 

[Loki]

I think that this idea has a number of problems.

For example, is it sexist? Why girls only? Who compiles the curriculum? Where is it delivered? How do you enforce it, given that its "mandatory"? What measure of certainty do you have that it will be effective? Who funds it? At what age should they start? Finish? What do the boys do while the girls are doing this? Who shall be held responsible when girls continue to die, even after they've been trained? Should this be exclusively in Israel, or global in scope? What about the women who are no longer in school? Do they get ignored? How do you see the mindset of the male criminal evolving with the change in the defensive ability of the victim? How do you propose to keep up with that?

Just off the top of my head...

These are all technicalities. I'm NOT proposing a comprehensive plan after consulting a team of experts, I'm conveying a concern and offering a general solution. 'Nuff said.

~ Loki

 

[Loki]

CLARIFICATION:
My primary concern is sexual assault, so maybe this isn't the best anecdote for my post, but women make much easier prey. A guy in this girl's place would have been a lot more likely to fight back effectively. Male rough-and-tumble and some schoolyard fights as youngesters plus naturally higher aggresiveness give them an edge over females in combat, this is why I think girls need these lessons a whole lot more than guys.

~ Loki

 

[arnisador]

There was a mandatory unit on it in my wife's high school.

Mandatory for everyone? Too paternalistic.

 

[Loki]

Mandatory for everyone? Too paternalistic.

Not mandatory as in sparring every Monday and self-defense drills every Thursday, it's not a MA class. I was thinking more towards a work shop, a few lessons during the school year teaching awareness, general pointers on self-defense and some techniques.

Suggestions?

~ Loki

 

[arnisador]

Teaching awareness and general pointers--definitely. That could go a long way toward helping! Making it part of Health class makes sense to me.

 

[Flatlander]

These are all technicalities. I'm NOT proposing a comprehensive plan after consulting a team of experts, I'm conveying a concern and offering a general solution. 'Nuff said.

~ Loki

No need to get defensive. You asked what people thought, and that's what I think. I feel that the question of mandatory self defense classes for girls only in school poses a number of problems. Whether or not its a good idea would be determined by whether or not reasonable solutions to those problems can be discovered. Further, I see little relevance in speaking in generalities. If you are legitimately concerned about this issue, put some work into the problem, and some effort into affecting change. That starts with considering the issue from all sides, and putting together a plan of action. I am simply trying to help with that process. If you don't want it, no problem for me. 'Nuff said.

 

[Loki]

No need to get defensive. You asked what people thought, and that's what I think. I feel that the question of mandatory self defense classes for girls only in school poses a number of problems. Whether or not its a good idea would be determined by whether or not reasonable solutions to those problems can be discovered. Further, I see little relevance in speaking in generalities. If you are legitimately concerned about this issue, put some work into the problem, and some effort into affecting change. That starts with considering the issue from all sides, and putting together a plan of action. I am simply trying to help with that process. If you don't want it, no problem for me. 'Nuff said.

Sorry, just looked off-topic to me.
I did put some work into the problem, and I have new plans regarding action in the field.

~ Loki

 

[TigerWoman]

Random violence is becoming more and more frequent. I have argued with my instructor for years that teens are not really taught self defense WELL. My daughter at age 18 almost tested for 2nd dan were it not for his changing a break to knife/concrete. I was in the process of "catch-up" to teach her self-defense in the last months before college and her test in May. It is our schools' rule that before 12, children do not learn self defense. So then when she went to adult classes at 12, she started learning the techniques only for her belt level, red so tested for black belt only having to demonstrate six. (I was required to do all for 2nd dan.) So, already at 20 she has had an instance in which she had to know self-defense but she was lucky. So now she sees the value in the lessons I was giving her before...only problem is, is that she didn't get them ingrained, not enough time nor motivation then, and now she doesn't have the time.

Just last week, here in Minnesota, in a small college town, two girls were attacked, abducted for rape. One girl got away and one attacker was caught. The other girl wasn't so lucky, she did get raped.

I concur heartily that all children should learn basic escape maneuvers and later after 12, the serious stuff. We should be teaching it in high school. But it's hard to even just demonstrate it in our schools, let alone hold classes. Somehow everyone (not in MA) thinks violence begets violence, when just the opposite happens. TW

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've been trying to get my 10 year-old sister to learn self-defense for two years now, but no good.

This morning every major Israeli newspaper had the same headline: "15 year old girl murdered for no reason". The killer was a juvenile delinquent who was given a weekend vacation from an institute that morning. He was drunk and high on contact glue fumes. She was on the way to the mall from her house, few minutes walk all in well-lit areas, when he attacked and choked her to death. When asked why he did it, he said "dunno".

My mom, shocked at this, told my sister who was reading the article with her: "You know, if she learned self-defense, she probably would still be alive."

Reading this myself, I was shocked twice. Once for the sheer randomality of the murder (doesn't happen often here), twice because I learned the response to that situation exactly in my first MA lesson.

Most girls in Israel (and most of the world, I assume) have not the faintest idea in self-defense (except MAYBE an awkward kick to the nuts). Girls who don't train in MA, are naturally tough or learn some basic form of self-defense have no idea what to do in case of an attack, much less expect one in advance.

My thoughts on the subject of mandatory self-defense classes for high school girls have been coming and going for the past two years, but this is has gone too far. Self-defense has to be taught in high school. A four-point average means nothing if you're dead.

I know that random violence is relatively rare and I'm probably being a bit emotional because of this event, but I honestly think that our sisters, daughters and girlfriends should have some idea of how to defend themselves.

What do you think?

~ Loki

Won't work. Teaching someone something against their will, is no different than teaching them nothing to begin with. The most powerful weapon a person has is their will to engage in violence for their own protection, and that cannot simply be taught. I agree that women should learn to defend themselves, but most have no desire to. You cannot turn an herbivore in to a meat eater simply by making it mandatory. The sad fact is, even if the techniques were taught, most women wouldn't or couldn't use them in a real conflict anyway, as the proper mindset is missing, and that is the mindset that tells them to harm someone else to protect themselves. In fact, even if they had a gun in their hand, pointed at the bad guy, and had the technical skills to use it, many people would not or could not pull the trigger. Even a gun is secondary to the will behind it.

 

[MA-Caver]

Won't work. Teaching someone something against their will, is no different than teaching them nothing to begin with. The most powerful weapon a person has is their will to engage in violence for their own protection, and that cannot simply be taught. I agree that women should learn to defend themselves, but most have no desire to. You cannot turn an herbivore in to a meat eater simply by making it mandatory. The sad fact is, even if the techniques were taught, most women wouldn't or couldn't use them in a real conflict anyway, as the proper mindset is missing, and that is the mindset that tells them to harm someone else to protect themselves. In fact, even if they had a gun in their hand, pointed at the bad guy, and had the technical skills to use it, many people would not or could not pull the trigger. Even a gun is secondary to the will behind it.

Loki, Sgtmac_46 is correct here. It is sad that this goes on. Thing is that it has been going on for centuries and it will probably continue to go on. Another thread here talks about sheep, sheepdogs and wolves. It was agreed that those of us who study MA/SD are basically sheepdogs that have evolved from sheep. But not everyone is going to make that leap. Consider also that conditioning sometimes plays a part in a female's (woman or girl) ability or willingness to "put up a fight". Abusive fathers/boyfriends/husbands can and have conditioned their "victims" to not fight-back/resist else it will make it worse.
Culturally things in Isreal and other mid-east countries women are supposed to be passive. Thus making it manditory goes against the country's society values. In this country times are changing where it's becoming okay for a woman to be tough and fighting back, but it's not as widespread as it should be.
Still individually no-one knows what they are capable of doing at any given moment. We can train, brain-train and practice and be on the alert at all times; but when the whistle blows and "it's for real" ... all of that can go right out the window. Witness battlefield testimonies of men underfire during any war. Trained to the max to confront the enemy and kill them before they get killed and a number of them will freeze up as soon as they hit the beach or get into the firefight. Same as on the streets. So there's no guarantee that teaching MA/SD will produce the desired results when it actually happens.
The word "mandatory" means required or commanded by authority; obligatory. Or in short forced. Brings to mind a quote I read somewhere...

"He that is convinced against their will is of the same opinion still."

The most effective fighters are those who will want to fight and the best defenders are those who are willing to defend no matter the cost. You know as well as the rest of us that getting into a "for-real" (physical) confrontation that the odds of us getting hurt (no matter how well trained we are) are fairly high. But we're willing to take that risk and willing to take the pain and do what is necessary. Not everyone is going to do that.
Just my four bits.

:asian:

 

[Loki]

I agree with what you guys are saying, that forcing isn't the best idea. But think of it this way: Our level groupings in math are 3, 4 and 5 points. Does the fact that math is also forced mean that everyone will drop to 3 points and do the minimum required to pass? You still see a lot of people doing 4 and 5 points, many of them excelling or at least giving it a shot. Even those who learned 3 points math have learned something.

People who go to my MA class have different mindsets too. Some are just there for an interesting workout, some are there for the confidence building aspect, and some are there for maximum preparation for a real fight. That latter are usually the toughest fighters, and will usually be more prepared than the other two categories, but all of them have at least a general idea of self-defense, intentions differing.

This is also why I said I don't think they should be taught a full MA, from the basics to the top. Pointers, awareness and some general techniques (see my reply above to Arnisador). Even if they gain nothing more than a better awareness that they are potential victims and the street isn't as safe as they might have thought, that's still something.
I refuse to believe that since forcing isn't the best method of teaching, the whole idea should be abandoned. If there is a need for better awareness and defense ability in teenage girls, something should be done.

~ Loki

 

[KenpoTex]

Most girls in Israel (and most of the world, I assume) have not the faintest idea in self-defense (except MAYBE an awkward kick to the nuts). Girls who don't train in MA, are naturally tough or learn some basic form of self-defense have no idea what to do in case of an attack, much less expect one in advance.

You mention females specifically but the above comments really apply to most people regardless of gender. Caver brought up the Sheep/Sheepdog thing (I'm not going to participate in another debate on that subject ) and once again, the analogy fits. Most people in general have absolutely no clue when it comes to self-defense they're just walking "food" for the predators out there. They live their lives in "condition white" so they never realize (or refuse to acknowledge) that they might be in danger. Then there's the little problem of not having any idea how to respond when actually faced with a threat.

As far as mandatory SD training, I like the idea of having awareness/avoidance or rape-prevention integrated into the curriculum in some fashion. Discussion of these topics could then open the door for the physical training. However, I feel that making training in SD or defensive tactics mandatory would be both counterproductive and ineffective. If someone doesn't want to learn they're not going to (you can lead a horse to water...). Some people just refuse to pull their head out of the sand.

I definately understand your frustration in dealing with your sister. I've been through the same thing with mine (she's 20). The really annoying thing is that she has had a couple of pretty close calls. About a year ago she was at the gas station and a pickup-truck with 3 guys pulled up on the other side of the pump. They started making comments and trying to flirt with her. One of them came over and offered to pump the gas for her. When she said she was fine and didn't need any help, he grabbed her by the wrist and tried to pull her to the truck. She managed to pull her hand away and she jumped in her car and took off.
She had another, similar incident a few months later. Even after these kinds of incidents, she refuses to take any kind of self-defense course (even though I've told her I would either pay for it or teach her myself). Those of you who know me (from reading my posts), know that I'm pretty extreme when it comes to self-defense. Therefore, you can probably imagine how frustrated I am that she won't wake up and smell the coffee. The sad part is that even if I do manage to convince her to take some classes or something someday, it probably won't do her any good because, as sgtmac_46 said, "the mindset is missing." This is the biggest problem with the whole situation, all the training and/or weapons in the world don't mean squat if you don't have the mindset.

 

[MJS]

I think that its great that people, especially females, learn some effective SD. However, anything something is forced upon someone, the risk of them not doing well or likeing it will always be there. In order for something to really be 100% effective, the person needs to have their heart and mind really into it. Sgtmac brough up some good points!

Mike

 

[Jaymeister]

IMO, the best thing would be to have police officers visit the schools, to talk about self defence (like they do with drugs, fireworks etc.). It might just make people realize the importance of being able to defend yourself.

 

[Loki]

As kenpotex, MJS and everyone above says (and I agree), the tools are not much without the mindset. But how is doing nothing about it any better?

Most girls I know don't take SD because SD is perceived as MA, which is stereotypically masculine. Girls are (usually) more gentle, less agressive and not as prone to go to class that teaches you various forms of hurting others. My take is that if you show girls the SD aspect of MA and how it can fit them too AND work to their benefit, a lot more girls will either take the workshops at school seriously or join a class. Those who bury their head in the sand are like religous fanatics, they won't listen to reason no matter what.

~ Loki

 

[MJS]

As kenpotex, MJS and everyone above says (and I agree), the tools are not much without the mindset. But how is doing nothing about it any better?

Most girls I know don't take SD because SD is perceived as MA, which is stereotypically masculine. Girls are (usually) more gentle, less agressive and not as prone to go to class that teaches you various forms of hurting others. My take is that if you show girls the SD aspect of MA and how it can fit them too AND work to their benefit, a lot more girls will either take the workshops at school seriously or join a class. Those who bury their head in the sand are like religous fanatics, they won't listen to reason no matter what.

~ Loki

If someone is concerned with the well being of their daughter, then yes, of course its good to do something, such as enroll her in a SD class. Your second paragraph brings up some good points. I think that the way the subject of SD is brought up, will determine how effective enrolling her will be.

Mike

 

[Adept]

I think it is a very important issue. Just last week there was a string of related sexual assaults in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. Very scary stuff.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't make SD classes mandatory. As everyone else has correctly pointed out, without the will to learn and the right mindset, you are wasting your time.

Instead I would make every attempt to raise awareness on the issue, and provide quality free training for people of all ages. This could be done in public school gymnasiums and funded by local government/private fundraising events.

A lot of people walk around in condition white, as noted earlier, because their life experience leads them to believe that all the other conditions are a fantasy. They happen to people on the television, or in movies. Not in their real lives. If we wake people up, and let them know that this is real, and can happen to them, then hopefully at least some of them will take up some SD training. Even if it's just awareness and avoidance training.

 

[47MartialMan]

Public awareness is good. Mandates are not always.

Education and willingness has to be paramount.