Indian girl uses Karate to defend herself. Is Karate an effective martial art for self defense?

Hanzou

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Karate's Grappling Methods: Amazon.co.uk: Iain Stuart Abernethy, Peter Skillen: 9780953893201: Books

However broad or narrow your interpretation of "grappling" is I think you would be hard pushed to argue that not one single chapter of this book covers something which falls within your interpretation of grappling. The conclusion therefore is that karate does include grappling.

How much of it you consider "grappling" and how much you do not, is purely a personal choice based on your interpretation of course.

Yeah I quoted the author earlier. His statement was that karate grappling was "crude" and if your goal is defeat a skilled grappler, you should take a grappling art.

Considering that karate was supposedly designed to beat down unskilled people, if your goal is to defeat a skilled striker, you should probably take a different striking art as well.

As for grappling coming out of karate and other sources, I eagerly await the day we see Karate, Aikido,Tai Chi, Hapkido, etc. practitioners entering grappling tournaments and doing well.
 

RTKDCMB

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if your goal is defeat a skilled grappler, you should take a grappling art.

You mean if your goal is defeat a skilled grappler, with grappling, you should take a grappling art?

if your goal is to defeat a skilled striker, you should probably take a different striking art as well.

Yeah because everyone knows that Karate doesn't have any skilled strikers right?
 

Hanzou

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You mean if your goal is defeat a skilled grappler, with grappling, you should take a grappling art?

Well, typically trying to punch and kick your way out of a hold or pin is a pretty bad idea, so yeah its usually a good idea to counter grappling with grappling.

Yeah because everyone knows that Karate doesn't have any skilled strikers right?

Don't shoot the messenger. The stated goal of karate isn't to fight off skilled/trained attackers, its to fight off unskilled ruffians. That's what one of its founders specifically stated.

So if you just so happen to run across a ruffian trained in boxing I guess you're screwed.
 

Touch Of Death

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Well, typically trying to punch and kick your way out of a hold or pin is a pretty bad idea, so yeah its usually a good idea to counter grappling with grappling.



Don't shoot the messenger. The stated goal of karate isn't to fight off skilled/trained attackers, its to fight off unskilled ruffians. That's what one of its founders specifically stated.

So if you just so happen to run across a ruffian trained in boxing I guess you're screwed.
A boxer's knee will break just like anyone else's. The founder of my Karate, did include skilled attackers. LOL
 

Hanzou

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A boxer's knee will break just like anyone else's. The founder of my Karate, did include skilled attackers. LOL

One of the first things we need to explore is what type of grappling we are talking about when referring to karate grappling. In 1908 the purpose of traditional karate was clearly defined by the great Anko Itosu. In a letter to the Okinawan education authority outlining the nature of karate he wrote, [Karate] is not intended to be used against a single opponent but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian. What Itosu is telling us is that the original karate was not designed for dealing with a single skilled martial artist in a ring or in the dojo, but is instead a means of keeping ourselves safe in civilian self-protection situations.- See more at: Karate Grappling: Did It Really Exist? | Iain Abernethy

Like I said, don't shoot the messenger.
 

RTKDCMB

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Don't shoot the messenger. The stated goal of karate isn't to fight off skilled/trained attackers, its to fight off unskilled ruffians. That's what one of its founders specifically stated.

So if you just so happen to run across a ruffian trained in boxing I guess you're screwed.
You should know, you're the Karate expert. :)
 

RTKDCMB

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Like I said, don't shoot the messenger.
From the same article written by whoever the manager is:

"Traditional karate grappling does not address a consensual fight with a skilled opponent".

"This is not to say karate is in any way deficient. It simply means it was designed for a certain set of circumstances and that we need to be clear on what kind of grappling we are discussing. "

"Willingly engaging in a grapple means you are in the fight for the long haul and escape becomes much more difficult"

Karate Grappling: Did It Really Exist? | Iain Abernethy

Maybe if you deliver the whole message then people might not want to shoot you so often. :)
 
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Hanzou

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From the same article written by whoever the manager is:

"Traditional karate grappling does not address a consensual fight with a skilled opponent".

"This is not to say karate is in any way deficient. It simply means it was designed for a certain set of circumstances and that we need to be clear on what kind of grappling we are discussing. "

"Willingly engaging in a grapple means you are in the fight for the long haul and escape becomes much more difficult"

Karate Grappling: Did It Really Exist? | Iain Abernethy

Maybe if you deliver the whole message then people might not want to shoot you so often. :)

It's the same message, I simply cut out the double-speak and excuses. :)
 

Paul_D

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So if you just so happen to run across a ruffian trained in boxing I guess you're screwed.
Only of you a) do not understand the dynamics of criminal violence, and b) don't understand how Karate is intended to be applied against it and c) are mistaking fighting for self defence.
 

lklawson

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That's helpful. I've spoken with Mr. Abernethy online several times, though never face to face. He's reviewed my boxing book in one of his blogs/podcasts, and "recommends" it, as well as allowed me to post links for several of the republished books I've done. While I, personally, respect his opinion, I am aware that he is something of a lighting rod in the Karate community and there are numerous Karateka who either take what he says with a grain of salt or who outright reject it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Spinoza

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Okay, this is coming from a complete novice here, but all fighting styles are situational. This helped her in her situation . . . that's what martial arts is supposed to do, right? I don't know much about karate, but at the very least, it seems to me that it provides great groundwork for fundamental striking practices. Who cares if a BJJ fighter could have beaten her in another set of circumstances? She wasn't in those circumstances, and she wasn't fending of a BJJ fighter. Comparing different defensive arts shouldn't be about "my dad could beat up your dad."
 

Hanzou

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Okay, this is coming from a complete novice here, but all fighting styles are situational. This helped her in her situation . . . that's what martial arts is supposed to do, right? I don't know much about karate, but at the very least, it seems to me that it provides great groundwork for fundamental striking practices. Who cares if a BJJ fighter could have beaten her in another set of circumstances? She wasn't in those circumstances, and she wasn't fending of a BJJ fighter. Comparing different defensive arts shouldn't be about "my dad could beat up your dad."

Well, that was brought up because of the OP asking why Karate was viewed as not sufficient for self defense, while KM and Bjj were.

It had nothing to do with a Bjj fighter being able to beat her, it had everything to do with the question asked by the OP on why Karate is largely viewed the way it is.

As for it providing great groundwork for fundamental striking practices, I disagree (unless you're talking about a Kyokushin or its descendant styles). If you're looking for good fundamental striking practices, look elsewhere.
 

ballen0351

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Okay, this is coming from a complete novice here, but all fighting styles are situational. This helped her in her situation . . . that's what martial arts is supposed to do, right? I don't know much about karate, but at the very least, it seems to me that it provides great groundwork for fundamental striking practices. Who cares if a BJJ fighter could have beaten her in another set of circumstances? She wasn't in those circumstances, and she wasn't fending of a BJJ fighter. Comparing different defensive arts shouldn't be about "my dad could beat up your dad."
You will see the BJJ crowd likes to butt in on all topics to tell us how great they are
 

RTKDCMB

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It had nothing to do with a Bjj fighter being able to beat her, it had everything to do with the question asked by the OP on why Karate is largely viewed the way it is.

And the reason why the question was asked was because of misinformation and biased opinion that is presented such as in the following:

As for it providing great groundwork for fundamental striking practices, I disagree (unless you're talking about a Kyokushin or its descendant styles). If you're looking for good fundamental striking practices, look elsewhere.
 

Skullpunch

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Who cares if a BJJ fighter could have beaten her in another set of circumstances? She wasn't in those circumstances, and she wasn't fending of a BJJ fighter.

I don't recall anyone saying otherwise as a basis for their opinion, and there we come full circle once again to the problem with the witch hunt against bjj/mma "fanboys" that I noticed immediately upon signing up on this board - the classic straw man fallacy.

Look, I agree that Hanzou's opinions can get kind of extreme, but if you think something is ******** the answer isn't more ********
 

Spinoza

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I apologize for my overreaction, and it certainly was an overreaction and I stand corrected. The person in question used karate for self defense, and it was effective. It has, no doubt, been effective in many other self defense situations. All styles are going to have their strong points and their shortcomings, and every effective use of an art in self defense can be countered with some sort of "Well, if the situation had gone like [insert situations that my art excels at] instead, then [my style] would have been more effective. [Other person's style] just isn't as effective for [insert situations that my art excels at]."

Every martial art has people guilty of this, and that's my point. I'm not on any witch hunt against BJJ/MMA (that insinuation, in itself, is its own straw man fallacy). I have every respect for BJJ. I'd have the same problem if an Arnis practitioner (the only MA I have experience with) had seen a story about someone effectively using BJJ for self defense and countered with, "Yeah, well, if the assailant had a knife . . . "
 

Skullpunch

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II'm not on any witch hunt against BJJ/MMA (that insinuation, in itself, is its own straw man fallacy). I have every respect for BJJ. I'd have the same problem if an Arnis practitioner (the only MA I have experience with) had seen a story about someone effectively using BJJ for self defense and countered with, "Yeah, well, if the assailant had a knife . . . "

You may not be a witch hunter but you did make a somewhat witch-hunty statement. No hate, it happens. One post out of 14 is a much better ratio than some. It's also worth noting that if you go back and read the op he's the one who brought up jiu-jitsu in a context that basically said "a lot of people like jiu jitsu for self defense but what about karate?" Questions like that almost beg for someone who thinks jiu jitsu > karate to explain why they think that yet the only person who called him on it was Iklawson way back on the first page, first or second reply iirc. After that it turned into another deluded witch hunt.
 
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