Shame on our neighbours

[Ahriman]

So, I just got home, I escorted my friend to the train station. As I arrived home, my girlfriend asked that do I want to laugh? At this moment I realized that her longsword is on the floor right in front of her, so I had a guess of what happened.
She heard some loud noise originating in front of the house we live in, then those noises became sounds of cries for help and beating. A young woman was beaten by her (likely) boyfriend, after the second punch she got on the ground where this bastard started kicking her. Our neighbours (older and middle aged men and women) watched this with the biggest effort at help was a quiet "someone should call the police". My girlfriend grabbed her sword and the leash of her dog and went downstairs, and asked the guy that what'd he prefer: be attacked by a dog or be slashed up by a sword. At first the guy didn't care, but when she loosened the leash and with her right hand assumed a proper pflug, he changed his mind and ran away.
After he ran away, our neighbours became braver, some came downstairs and one called the ambulance. The ambulance arrived soon, stabilized the victim, and asked what happened. My girlfriend told them the story, to get the reply "and with all of these men around a blind girl had to help??".
The victim's clothes were torn, her nose broken, her head broken in, other injuries are likely but Zsuzsi doesn't know about them.
...
I still have to restrain myself from going door-to-door busting their unworthy heads. I know that Zsuzsi can take care of herself, but this is really a shame and shows quite well the cowardice around here. Oh, no one apologised, no one said a thing.
And as an epilogue, Zsuzsi is 100% blind.
...
Consequence: people are mostly unworthy cowards, but if you do want to help, you can regardless of any disability.

 

[Sukerkin]

My lord, Ahriman! Our governments really are turning us into petrified sheep aren't they?

I can't guarantee that I would step into a fight between girlfirend/boyfriend, as that's the surest way to get set on by both of them, but what you describe sounds a lot more serious than that.

I like to think that I'd at least get close enough to say something that might get the attackers attention, most especially I'd hope I'd have the courage if there was a crowd gathering for crying out loud!

Was it physical fear that restrained everyone do you think? Or fear of litigation?

 

[Ahriman]

Well, a broken-in head (broken in=the connection between areas of the skull disappears and the bone fragments move towards the brain) is definitely more serious than a simple quarrel. At the time Zsuzsi got down there was no chance of getting both of them against her as the girl was on the ground screaming for help and bleeding like hell.
...
It wasn't fear from what I gathered. It was more like amusement. If I'd find that bastard and dissect him alive in full view of them they'd watch it in the exactly same manner. They just didn't care. I use the term "coward" as I hope that at least some of them were only that, cowards.
This kind of behaviour occurs quite often here. People don't care about helping. They watch and when things get bloody they go a bit farther away, but they still watch and later they regurgitate the story to fascinate those who weren't around then.

edited to add: Zsuzsi clarified a thing right now. When she got there the girl wasn't screaming any more. She wasn't able to do so.

 

[Sukerkin]

I was pretty sure you meant a "fractured skull" when you said "broken in head" but I didn't want to assume - I'm astonished that noone did anything with an assault that violent taking place on their doorstep.

I can assure you that if it happened outside our house something would be done but then we live in a small town rather than a city and my neighbour is a policeman as opposed to an annonymous 'someone' who I don't know.

 

[morph4me]

I was pretty sure you meant a "fractured skull" when you said "broken in head" but I didn't want to assume - I'm astonished that noone did anything with an assault that violent taking place on their doorstep.

I can assure you that if it happened outside our house something would be done but then we live in a small town rather than a city and my neighbour is a policeman as opposed to an annonymous 'someone' who I don't know.

Unfortunately it's a phenomenon called Diffusion of Responsiblilty, and it's very common. Nobody does anything, because they assume that someone else will do it. People don't even call the police, because they assume someone else has done it and they don't want to get involved.

Ahriman, I'm glad your girlfriend decided to get involved and help someone who needed it, you should be very proud of her. I wish she had called the police instead of putting herself at risk. I'm glad everything turned out alright.

 

[tellner]

Thanks to Morph4me for saying it first. This isn't the result of an evil gummint plot. It's basic human nature. The more people there are and the less personal stake they have the less likely they are to get involved. Think Kitty Genovese and a thousand less famous cases. Most of us are frightened self-absorbed children almost all the time. Congratulations to your girlfriend for being that rarest of things, a functioning adult human being.

:asian:

 

[Ahriman]

Calling the police... shows that you don't live in Hungary. :wink: They either ignore the call or arrive 15-20 minutes later even when they have about 1 kilometre to go. According to the ambulance, a few more minutes or even seconds in that situation would have resulted in the death of the victim. I'd go further by saying that it was luck that she endured that long. If the guy would have simply stomped on her neck instead of "simply" kicking her head and body...
...
And I live with Zsuzsi because she is quite much like me. We just can't stand still and wait as crimes take place, especially when it's absolutely unprovoked or when the victim is so much weaker than the attacker. We want peace and stability and neither of us have problems with a little violence if it brings us closer to what we want.
...
Zsuzsi asks that how many of you would (or could) just stand and only make a phone call when a woman is being kicked around on the ground? It's simply not our way.

 

[morph4me]

Calling the police... shows that you don't live in Hungary. :wink: They either ignore the call or arrive 15-20 minutes later even when they have about 1 kilometre to go. According to the ambulance, a few more minutes or even seconds in that situation would have resulted in the death of the victim. I'd go further by saying that it was luck that she endured that long. If the guy would have simply stomped on her neck instead of "simply" kicking her head and body...
...
And I live with Zsuzsi because she is quite much like me. We just can't stand still and wait as crimes take place, especially when it's absolutely unprovoked or when the victim is so much weaker than the attacker. We want peace and stability and neither of us have problems with a little violence if it brings us closer to what we want.
...
Zsuzsi asks that how many of you would (or could) just stand and only make a phone call when a woman is being kicked around on the ground? It's simply not our way.

Just because it's good advice, doesn't mean I'd necessarily follow it. I probably would have ended up doing the same thing, Zsuizsi did, but I'm not that bright. I'm better at giving advice than following it

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ahriman,

While there are places in Texas where passerbys might just call police, I can say for certian that would be the minimum response. Well over 250,000 people have CCW permits here, and being Texas, everyone has a gun in the house (well not everyone but a majority, that's for sure.)

Your girlfriend did the right thing. No two ways about it. Only if it was in a confined area, maybe she would have been better served with a short sword! And I hope you and her now have an upgraded first aid kit.

As for the police, in any nation, even England were there are spy TVs everywhere just about, the police can't be everywhere and I don't expect them. The government? The purpose of government is limited (I don't care what they say they can do, it's limited, even the Communist who had uncheck power were limited.)

I don't depend on the government. Around there they are considered a tolerated nucence that keeps the roads paved and water running. 911 (to call the cops with) is a crutch by some, but not all.

Deaf

 

[Kacey]

Ahriman, I'm so glad that your girlfriend is, first, uninjured herself, and second, that she was willing to take action in this situation. Kudos and congratulations to her!

There are too many documented cases in which passersby stand and watch wrongs - even atrocities - occur. That is why one of the things pounded in hardest at first aid certification classes is to designate someone to call the police - don't say "someone call for help", point at a particular person and command him/her to call 911 NOW.... then watch to be sure it happens. Order other people to help as needed - and in the meantime, get to work, because you're likely to be the only one moving.

 

[tshadowchaser]

There should be more people like your girl friend.
She was brave to interfere in a domestic violence situation. My compliments to her.

On the other hand if she had used the sword or the dog had bitten the guy she could possibly have been charged in most state.

I hope the girl involved presses charges on that guy

 

[Deaf Smith]

Have any of you wondered why people do nothing?

Just about all the places I've heard of this the population as been basicly disarmed. Notice Ahriman's girlfriend was armed and trained.

Could self confidence one can alter the situation be a large factor? And to have that self confidence one would have to have access to weapons and the ability to use them?

And also importantly, the society around them would have to be supportive. If the community frowns on self defense, then you will see most people will not want to be involved.

Deaf

 

[Kacey]

Have any of you wondered why people do nothing?

Just about all the places I've heard of this the population as been basicly disarmed. Notice Ahriman's girlfriend was armed and trained.

Could self confidence one can alter the situation be a large factor? And to have that self confidence one would have to have access to weapons and the ability to use them?

And also importantly, the society around them would have to be supportive. If the community frowns on self defense, then you will see most people will not want to be involved.

Deaf

As morph4me said earlier, the Diffusion of Responsibility is a known and studied concept.

Diffusion of responsibility is a social phenomenon which tends to occur in groups of people above a certain critical size when responsibility is not explicitly assigned.

Diffusion of responsibility can manifest itself:

• in a group of peers who, through action or inaction, allow events to occur which they would never allow if alone (action is typically referred to as groupthink; inaction is typically referred to as the bystander effect) or
• in hierarchical organizations as when, for example, underlings claim that they were following orders and supervisors claim that they were just issuing directives and not doing anything per se.

Too many people are content to follow (as the neighbors followed each other in standing around making comments instead of taking action) rather than lead - but once someone does lead, as in this case, others will follow the leader's example and respond as the leader does.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well it's as the late Jeff Cooper( gods rest his soul) once said, successful self defense is not so much a matter of skill as a matter of will.

 

[Ahriman]

Legal problems are not really an issue with Zsuzsi. At a large scale, she does the same as me, obeying laws and defending herself if (and only if) needed. In this case... any judge with a minimal amount of IQ would understand that the victim was in a life-threatening situation and Zsuzsi was the only person who was able to stop it, AND she's completely blind so if she heard the attacker getting closer then she would be absolutely justified to believe that now she is in that life-threatening situation as she can base her judgement on voice and noise input and on the previous events.
...
We have a rather wide array of first aid stuff... remember, she has epilepsia and I make arms and armours - both ensure that sooner or later someone will get hurt.
...
Ordering people around is a thing both of us are used to, and when the situation demands we somehow manage to display enough authority to get most people obey us immediately.
...
She asked me to tell you all that she appreciates the compliments and she's glad that not only we "idiots" thought that she did the right thing.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well it's as the late Jeff Cooper( gods rest his soul) once said, successful self defense is not so much a matter of skill as a matter of will.

Yes, and the will is enhanced if you have the means of self defense. Disarming the people keeps them from having those means.

Deaf

 

[Ahriman]

And I keep helping people to have acces to SD hardware. You can't disarm a nation unless the nation agrees. While most Hungarians agree, we do not. We obey the laws so we stick to legal hardware, but all of my friends have something from me to help them if needed... we use what we can, be it a spear, a sword, a crossbow or a walking cane with a comfortable "hammer-shaped" head AKA single handed poleaxe.
...
So far the police didn't come. Most likely it'll take weeks for them to get here and by that time witnesses won't really remember anything. Another bastard gets away with no penalties. I love Hungary. :frown:

 

[allenjp]

This is one of the things that makes me happy I live in the U.S. I don't know what firearms laws are like in Hungary, but in the states we have a constitutional right to own firearms, if something like this happened in my neighborhood, the bastard would have found himself staring down the business end of my Ruger P95 or Mossberg 500. Doesn't matter if it was me or my wife that was at home at that moment, (she is a better shot with a pistol than me). It is perfectly legal here to shoot someone and kill them with your personal gun if it is reasonable to believe they are trying to maim or kill another person, which in this case it is obvious that he was. Sorry that all you have available is a sword, but in that case since Szuszi is blind she wouldn't be able to use a gun anyway, but someone else in the neighborhood could have.

Tell her for me that she is one of the bravest people I have ever heard of.

 

[MA-Caver]

This is too similar to the other thread relating to the beating death of a toddler while people did very little to help.
Kudos to Zsuzsi for stepping up to bat and helping where she could and successfully at that!
Sukerkin; you're right stepping into a fight between girlfriend and boyfriend isn't always the wisest of things because as you pointed out BOTH could turn on you. However when the girl is crying for help then it's a sure bet she's not going to resent any interference on her behalf. Fact that she couldn't cry out for help at a certain point meant she was bound for the hospital and thus couldn't help herself anymore.

We're going to read more of these horror stories. We as martialists will become more caught inbetween our ability to take care of the average citizen who's beating on another and not stepping over our boundries of the law.

That's why I tend to "disappear" after EMS/LEOs arrive if I get myself involved with an accident by helping or preventing a beating. It's not playing the superhero mentality it's just I don't want to get caught up in courts and lawyers and all of that telling me I had no right to interfere or no certification to provide emergency first aid (though I got the training it's just not been LEGALLY re-certified... and to that I say so what? If I'm in over my head on something then I'll relent and not try to go beyond what my training has taught me) then some legal defendant or prosecutor wants to fine/jail me for doing the right thing?? Fuggettabbutit! I'm outta there and gone.

 

[Guardian]

Ahriman,

While there are places in Texas where passerbys might just call police, I can say for certian that would be the minimum response. Well over 250,000 people have CCW permits here, and being Texas, everyone has a gun in the house (well not everyone but a majority, that's for sure.)

Your girlfriend did the right thing. No two ways about it. Only if it was in a confined area, maybe she would have been better served with a short sword! And I hope you and her now have an upgraded first aid kit.

As for the police, in any nation, even England were there are spy TVs everywhere just about, the police can't be everywhere and I don't expect them. The government? The purpose of government is limited (I don't care what they say they can do, it's limited, even the Communist who had uncheck power were limited.)

I don't depend on the government. Around there they are considered a tolerated nucence that keeps the roads paved and water running. 911 (to call the cops with) is a crutch by some, but not all.

Deaf

Minimum at least is right for the most part, most I know here in Texas would have at least gotten the dude off her and then went from there.

I agree with you 100% on the rest of your assessment here also. We don't wait for the Government to care for us, we do that for ourselves.