Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

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Hanzou

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Kinda depends on where, but "blue belt." Whatever....


LoL! Wrong again. It takes on average 2 years to get a blue belt in Bjj.

Anyways.... back to topic.
 

elder999

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LoL! Wrong again. It takes on average 2 years to get a blue belt in Bjj.

Anyways.... back to topic.

No, it depends on where...there are quite a few schools-includoing the "gracie online academy" where blue belt can be achieved in less than 2 years....

it comes after white, so it'll always be kinda "yellow" to me...
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It didn't take me a year to get blue belt in BJJ,.....of course, I had already been dan grade in judo for what seems like forever,now, and I doubt I'll ever pursue anything beyond purple......BJJ, after all, is Basically Just. Judo.....
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Hanzou

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No, it depends on where...there are quite a few schools-includoing the "gracie online academy" where blue belt can be achieved in less than 2 years....

Yeah, that's why I said "average".

it comes after white, so it'll always be kinda "yellow" to me...
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Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....

It didn't take me a year to get blue belt in BJJ,.....of course, I had already been dan grade in judo for what seems like forever,now, and I doubt I'll ever pursue anything beyond purple......BJJ, after all, is Basically Just. Judo.....
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Except for the transitions, leg locks, no-gi, leg takedowns, ankle picks, etc.
 
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Shai Hulud

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I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.
I would then inquire into the content of her training regimen. Is she pressure/stress tested enough to mimic real-world scenarios beyond the safe world of the dojo? Or does she only train as a hobby or for health? It takes a different kind of mindset to make a fighter. In this I believe that it is not so much what you train, but how you train. It is your approach to training that will make the difference. I have met many elite martial artists here in the martial arts circles of St. Petersburg; a number of them only to be destroyed on the mats by Russian and/or Ex-Soviet military operators. If you want to win fights, you must train for fights, and sparring is not the only way to do that.

As far as Davis is concerned, she walked away from that confrontation unbowed, which I consider the immediate goal of self-defense.
 

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I would then inquire into the content of her training regimen. Is she pressure/stress tested enough to mimic real-world scenarios beyond the safe world of the dojo? Or does she only train as a hobby or for health? It takes a different kind of mindset to make a fighter. In this I believe that it is not so much what you train, but how you train. It is your approach to training that will make the difference. I have met many elite martial artists here in the martial arts circles of St. Petersburg; a number of them only to be destroyed on the mats by Russian and/or Ex-Soviet military operators. If you want to win fights, you must train for fights, and sparring is not the only way to do that.

As far as Davis is concerned, she walked away from that confrontation unbowed, which I consider the immediate goal of self-defense.
Shai, don't believe a word Hanzou is writing. He is ignoring the facts and writing ********. My advice to him would be to focus!

Here is yet another account.
Karate black-belt Taela Davis turns the tables on rapist who attacked her Daily Mail Online

"So I turned around and tried to get my body weight behind me and I punched him in the face and made his nose bleed, but that didn't really do as much as I'd hoped.

'He grabbed both my arms so I couldn't hit him again so I ended up headbutting him, which was really painful, but with my karate training we are told to find an opening.

'Then I managed to get some distance in between us and decided to knee him the groin and ribs repeatedly.'

Ms Davis' yelling soon caught the attention of a passer-by whose appearance, 'spooking' her attacker, causing him to flee."




Read more: Karate black-belt Taela Davis turns the tables on rapist who attacked her Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

She was on her feet attacking her attacker when the third party guy turned up. Make sure you read her Facebook account that is included in the article. Also read the previous articles I linked. They tell a bit more about her training.
 

Chris Parker

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Hmm without wading into the quagmire that this thread has become (again), there's a few things that leapt out to me, that honestly I'm a little surprised haven't been addressed already...

Grappling/ground fighting is critical. I don't think it's the only thing they need to know, but a purple belt (or at least an experienced blue belt) in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction. That goes for anyone, really..

Steve gotta say this is completely inaccurate. A particular ranking in BJJ should be a fundamental pillar of self defence instruction? Dude what? You, by your own admission, have never trained in, been interested in, gained any experience in, or have any real understanding of self defence training however you are experienced in BJJ training. So all your BJJ experience can then be surmised as not being focused on self defence which makes it questionable as to just how "fundamental" BJJ ranking is to a self defence methodology.

More importantly, how arrogant is it to say that a modern sporting-heavy, limited application, limited context system, simply by having a specialisation of one small area of the minor area of combative defensive skills, would then be a fundamental aspect, or even a requirement? I'll put it this way my self defence curriculum features no BJJ at all ground work is perhaps 5% of the overall approach it's almost opposite to BJJ there and, bluntly it's about a thousand times more advanced, suited, applicable, and detailed than anything I've seen in any BJJ approach, school, class, or material.

In other words, no, there is nothing that supports the idea that rank in BJJ should be considered a "fundamental pillar" of anything of the kind.

Look I get the idea that having something dealing with ground defence and escape is a good idea but the way you've worded this is simply wrong.

That being said, if she really wants to learn self defense, then she could go get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and learn to shot and learn to draw under fire and respond. Of course most people (males included) just do the minimum training to get the license.

If a pistol is not what one wants to carry, and sometimes is not allowed on a college or school campus then training with knives and grappling with knives is important. One one gets used to deploying a blade while on the ground and then using it they can then carry a pen or other improvised tool on them in areas where a knife cannot be legally carried.

Rich, this happened in Melbourne in fact, the school the young lady attended is a branch dojo of my first school and it happened about 5 minutes from a friend of mine's house and I have to say that everything you're suggesting here is not legal here at all. You cannot own a gun here for reasons of self defence there is no such thing as a "concealed carry" law or permit (other than some Law Enforcement which is still not the same as having it for self defence) and, for the record, the same type of laws apply to the carrying of blades (knives etc).

I get the perspective you're coming from, but when reality intervenes, you need to be aware that different areas will have a different take on things and I'd also say that the deployment of a weapon in such circumstances would not necessarily be seen as "reasonable".
 

elder999

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Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....

Not really. I'm "instructor level" in other arts; I'm 55 years old and have chosen to focus my own training in other areas-my "taste" of BJJ was more than enough to compliment my judo and wrestling background, especially since I'm not interested in becoming any sort of BJJ instructor teacher-judo and Miyama ryu suit me just fine, at this point, and I got enough of a feel for the BJJ methodology to counter the "average" young punk with an "average" training level in it in a street encounter, which is all I was really interested in in the first place.....

BesidesI like the sound of "ude garami , and American english is my native language, so "coil lock" also works, but oomaplata just makes me giggle: it sounds like a children's breakfast cereal to me!!
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Never mind go-
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go-
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gogoplata
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Except for the transitions, leg locks, no-gi, leg takedowns, ankle picks, etc.

Transitions, strategy, quite a few angles-to be sure......as for the rest of it, well, as I've posted elsewhere, in most places, judo isn't what it once was: while it's difficult for some to imagine no-gi judo (it's a blind spot in Greg Jackson grappling training-most of those guys are suckers for judo throws) it's equally difficult for me to imagine not training no-gi judo. While the rules have pretty much eliminated leg takedowns and pick ups from judo competition, it's hard for me to imagine not teaching them......as for leg locks and ankle picks, well......like I said, I'm 55...it's hard for me to imagine being able to submit younger men who have trained for any length of time without having them in my repertoire,,,,,and hard to imagine not teaching anything that's in my repertoire.....most of my training is self-defense oriented, though, not for competition-I used to travel a bit, and still go to MMA gyms when I'm out of town, so it's not as though I don't wind up rolling with someone on occasion anyway....

Oh, and yeah-see above. I pretty much agree with almost everything Chris and K-Man have said in regards to the OP and other posts regarding it.....except for it being in Australia, I'd generally agree with Rich as well, though most firearm training in the U.S. (and none of the required concealed carry training) doesn't deal with CQB, which this situation was-a lot of openly carrying cops wouldn't have been able (as in :"known how") to draw their firearm in this scenario......never mind a civilian with just the training for carrying....
 
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Steve

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Thanks for sharing your opinion, Chris. Mine is that some skill in ground fighting should be considered a pillar of any serious effort to learn self defense skills. You don't need to be an expert, but should stick with it long enough to be proficient, which I would say is about high blue or purple level, or equivalent in another grappling art.

If you disagree, great. Your opinion is noted. I'm sharing my opinion, and don't believe that makes me arrogant.
 
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Hanzou

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Not really. I'm "instructor level" in other arts; I'm 55 years old and have chosen to focus my own training in other areas-my "taste" of BJJ was more than enough to compliment my judo and wrestling background, especially since I'm not interested in becoming any sort of BJJ instructor teacher-judo and Miyama ryu suit me just fine, at this point, and I got enough of a feel for the BJJ methodology to counter the "average" young punk with an "average" training level in it in a street encounter, which is all I was really interested in in the first place.....

BesidesI like the sound of "ude garami , and American english is my native language, so "coil lock" also works, but oomaplata just makes me giggle: it sounds like a children's breakfast cereal to me!!
rolling.gif


Never mind go-
rolling.gif
go-
rolling.gif
gogoplata
rolling.gif
rolling.gif
rolling.gif

Uh, okay... My point was that purple belt comes after blue, and purple belts are permitted to teach classes. I don't think there's many Japanese-based MA schools allowing Green belts to teach.


Transitions, strategy, quite a few angles-to be sure......as for the rest of it, well, as I've posted elsewhere, in most places, judo isn't what it once was: while it's difficult for some to imagine no-gi judo (it's a blind spot in Greg Jackson grappling training-most of those guys are suckers for judo throws) it's equally difficult for me to imagine not training no-gi judo. While the rules have pretty much eliminated leg takedowns and pick ups from judo competition, it's hard for me to imagine not teaching them......as for leg locks and ankle picks, well......like I said, I'm 55...it's hard for me to imagine being able to submit younger men who have trained for any length of time without having them in my repertoire,,,,,and hard to imagine not teaching anything that's in my repertoire.....most of my training is self-defense oriented, though, not for competition-I used to travel a bit, and still go to MMA gyms when I'm out of town, so it's not as though I don't wind up rolling with someone on occasion anyway....

That's great. I was making sure to point out that Bjj isn't "Just Judo" anymore. The rules neutering Judo to the ground, and Bjj absorbing every facet of grappling like a gigantic black hole make that more and more apparent everyday. When Bjj surpasses Judo in terms of number of practitioners in a few years, it will be interesting to see how that effects Judo. As it stands, many Bjj clubs offer Judo to their students, and actively combine it with wrestling and no-gi grappling. Maybe you should teach at your Bjj school? Might save you some money on classes. ;)

Oh, and yeah-see above. I pretty much agree with almost everything Chris and K-Man have said in regards to the OP and other posts regarding it.....

Is that supposed to be a surprise? :p
 
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Hanzou

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I would then inquire into the content of her training regimen. Is she pressure/stress tested enough to mimic real-world scenarios beyond the safe world of the dojo? Or does she only train as a hobby or for health? It takes a different kind of mindset to make a fighter. In this I believe that it is not so much what you train, but how you train. It is your approach to training that will make the difference. I have met many elite martial artists here in the martial arts circles of St. Petersburg; a number of them only to be destroyed on the mats by Russian and/or Ex-Soviet military operators. If you want to win fights, you must train for fights, and sparring is not the only way to do that.

I wouldn't argue that she isn't a fighter. She would need to be in order to sustain her resistance against that attack. I'm curious if a guard sweep or two couldn't have tilted that confrontation more in her favor, so she wasn't left screaming for help, needing a third party to intervene to end the assault.

As far as Davis is concerned, she walked away from that confrontation unbowed, which I consider the immediate goal of self-defense.

Absolutely. Regardless of the pitfalls, she definitely came out on top in the end. I'm simply wary about anyone depending on third party intervention to save themselves. As was displayed many times, there's occasions where no one wants to get involved.
 
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Chris Parker

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Thanks for sharing your opinion, Chris. Mine is that some skill in ground fighting should be considered a pillar of any serious effort to learn self defense skills. You don't need to be an expert, but should stick with it long enough to be proficient, which I would say is about high blue or purple level, or equivalent in another grappling art.

If you disagree, great. Your opinion is noted. I'm sharing my opinion, and don't believe that makes me arrogant.

List for me again your experience and qualifications in self defence training and teaching, Steve. Start with how much training (specific) you have received, and move onto your own teaching and structure of a self defence syllabus. Please note that saying that you have x-years of BJJ experience will not be taken as self defence training.

Then, I might take you back to the post I quoted where you specifically stated that you felt that a blue or purple belt in BJJ was a "fundamental pillar of self defence instruction" despite many, many forms of self defence training existing completely without it. And yeah, I do consider it rather arrogant to state that what you do, despite having no real self defence focus itself, is essential to self defence which implies that without your system/approach, it's not good, adequate, real, whatever self defence.
 

elder999

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The rules neutering Judo to the ground, and Bjj absorbing every facet of grappling like a gigantic black hole make that more and more apparent everyday. When Bjj surpasses Judo in terms of number of practitioners in a few years, it will be interesting to see how that effects Judo.

Coming from the periphery of the judo orgs. in the U.S., I can tell you that judo seems to be pretty much running scared.....

As it stands, many Bjj clubs offer Judo to their students, and actively combine it with wrestling and no-gi grappling. Maybe you should teach at your Bjj school? Might save you some money on classes. ;)

See above: when I go commercial (since I've been teaching out of my barn for....well, a long time, now) I'll have actively combined BJJ, no-gi grappling and wrestling with my judo and other stuff.....(Hey, you got peanut butter on my chocolate!)

The other point being that I get BJJ training so infrequently at this point that I might attain purple by 2018....if ever


Is that supposed to be a surprise? :p

This is a forum-we're not the only two people in the conversation, right?
 
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Coming from the periphery of the judo orgs. in the U.S., I can tell you that judo seems to be pretty much running scared.....

Unfortunate. It would be interesting to see how Judo would have evolved without all those artificial bottlenecks stifling its development.

See above: when I go commercial (since I've been teaching out of my barn for....well, a long time, now) I'll have actively combined BJJ, no-gi grappling and wrestling with my judo.....(Hey, you got peanut butter on my chocolate!)

Why not add in your Kyokushin striking? Throws of Judo, ground fighting of Bjj, and the striking of Kyokushin would be a potent mix. Just don't do something lame and pretend that it's some lost Japanese Jujutsu ryuha, and call yourself "Soke".

This is a forum-we're not the only two people in the conversation, right?

Of course.
 

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I wouldn't argue that she isn't a fighter. She would need to be in order to sustain her resistance against that attack. I'm curious if a guard sweep or two couldn't have tilted that confrontation more in her favor, so she wasn't left screaming for help, needing a third party to intervene to end the assault.



Absolutely. Regardless of the pitfalls, she definitely came out on top in the end. I'm simply wary about anyone depending on third party intervention to save themselves. As was displayed many times, there's occasions where no one wants to get involved.

So you don't teach in self defense, for people to yell for attention/assistance? I would have thought that standard fare. And I get the impression that she was gaining the upper hand before the third party showed up. But if that is what ended it sooner, why criticize her?

No two self defense situations are likely to be the same. I can think of things that I think might have been better (from my point of view). However, again, we may conjecture as much as we wish, but we weren't there nor involved in the fight. She was and she seems to have done something right; she wasn't raped nor killed and her attacker left, hopefully somewhat disconcerted.
 
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More importantly, how arrogant is it to say that a modern sporting-heavy, limited application, limited context system, simply by having a specialisation of one small area of the minor area of combative defensive skills, would then be a fundamental aspect, or even a requirement? I'll put it this way my self defence curriculum features no BJJ at all ground work is perhaps 5% of the overall approach it's almost opposite to BJJ there and, bluntly it's about a thousand times more advanced, suited, applicable, and detailed than anything I've seen in any BJJ approach, school, class, or material.

Would that self defense approach be Ninjutsu?

Also wouldn't Karate also be considered a modern, sport-heavy, limited application, limited context system?
 

elder999

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Unfortunate. It would be interesting to see how Judo would have evolved without all those artificial bottlenecks stifling its development.

Well, you gotta remember that I started in judo when I was 8 years old.....frankly, the sporting aspect has made it devolve, if anything....



Why not add in your Kyokushin striking? Throws of Judo, ground fighting of Bjj, and the striking of Kyokushin would be a potent mix.

Why didn't I think of that??!!
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Actually, the "ground fighting of BJJ" is Basically Just Judo...I've often wondered what the evolution of Brazilian judo would have been like if confined to the sporting rules of judo from the 50's, instead of the vale tudo contests that it developed in.....

QUOTE="Hanzou, post: 1707228, member: 31336"] Just don't do something lame and pretend that it's some lost Japanese Jujutsu ryuha, and call yourself "Soke".[/QUOTE]


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I always convey everything I teach (and it's going to be more than just karate, judo and jujutsu) as what it is and where it came from....I've had enough of "pretending" in my professional career to last me a lifetime.....nor have I any interest in being the super-duper uber super soke of anything-I'd rather that people be able to continue instruction with someone else somewhere else after they leave me, or after I'm gone.....
 

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List for me again your experience and qualifications in self defence training and teaching, Steve. Start with how much training (specific) you have received, and move onto your own teaching and structure of a self defence syllabus. Please note that saying that you have x-years of BJJ experience will not be taken as self defence training.

Then, I might take you back to the post I quoted where you specifically stated that you felt that a blue or purple belt in BJJ was a "fundamental pillar of self defence instruction" despite many, many forms of self defence training existing completely without it. And yeah, I do consider it rather arrogant to state that what you do, despite having no real self defence focus itself, is essential to self defence which implies that without your system/approach, it's not good, adequate, real, whatever self defence.
Chris, I do think that a blue or purple belt in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction. The equivalent in any grappling art is perfectly okay. But, that said, the emphasis on being able to work from one's back is somewhat unique to BJJ.

Regarding the rest, Chris, I'm really not interested in comparing dick sizes with you. I have never pretended to be any more than what I am.
 

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Well, you gotta remember that I started in judo when I was 8 years old.....frankly, the sporting aspect has made it devolve, if anything....
Judo is awesome. Sambo, Catch wrestling, Shuai jiao... lots of options. You can get solid grappling training outside of BJJ. Doesn't change my opinion that a grounding (no pun intended) in grappling should be considered essential. And, in my opinion, it needs to come from a primarily grappling art.

BJJ has the benefit over most of those others in that it emphasizes the guard. But, I'm a fan of any sound, grappling instruction.
 

Chris Parker

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Would that self defense approach be Ninjutsu?

This may confuse you, but no, absolutely not. Although it does form the basis of our particular approach.

Also wouldn't Karate also be considered a modern, sport-heavy, limited application, limited context system?

Depending on the system, yes. But, by the same token, I don't see anyone in this thread saying that karate is an essential aspect of self defence the way Steve suggested BJJ had to be there he's since softened (slightly) to include any similar grappling to his estimation of a particular skill level which simply shows a reduction of an understanding of "self defence" to one of the least important aspects in the first place.

That said Steve

Chris, I do think that a blue or purple belt in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction. The equivalent in any grappling art is perfectly okay. But, that said, the emphasis on being able to work from one's back is somewhat unique to BJJ.

Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though? Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on? Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"? And how can you not see it as arrogant to suggest that anyone teaching self defence who hasn't attained your prescribed rank in your personal art isn't really qualified to teach self defence?

Regarding the rest, Chris, I'm really not interested in comparing dick sizes with you. I have never pretended to be any more than what I am.

Garbage, Steve, frankly. You've been offering your take on what's required for a self defence method here, you've had a number of threads about whether or not anyone can actually teach self defence, or be an expert in it, all of which stem from your lack of experience in this field. Simply by trying to offer what comes across as informed, or at least, cognisant insight on this topic, you're putting yourself up as someone who has understanding and knowledge which, by your own admission, you don't. So you are pretending to be something you're not and not for the first time.

But really, the point of my comments was to highlight that reality. You can say that you'd highly advise a strong base in, or at least grasp of the fundamentals of BJJ as being highly advantageous for the physical aspects of a self defence curriculum but stating that it's a fundamental pillar of something you've never had any exposure to that's where you're pretending to be something you're not. And honestly, if you don't see that (you didn't the last few times we went through this, so my hopes aren't very high), then there's little that can be said.
 
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