Indian girl uses Karate to defend herself. Is Karate an effective martial art for self defense?

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She punched them and kicked them where it counts.... So first off karate doesn't own those particular techniques ... But anyway

The last question how can a smaller person defend against a larger.....

Bucket loads of confidence, if you train hard and you have confidence then it goes a long way to helping you in a situation. I know and know of plenty of people that never used any of their training because they were too scared or psyched out.

No matter what style you train the techniques are not going to apply themselves, you have to have the mindset to fight.
 

Skullpunch

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She punched them and kicked them where it counts.... So first off karate doesn't own those particular techniques ... But anyway

The last question how can a smaller person defend against a larger.....

Bucket loads of confidence, if you train hard and you have confidence then it goes a long way to helping you in a situation. I know and know of plenty of people that never used any of their training because they were too scared or psyched out.

No matter what style you train the techniques are not going to apply themselves, you have to have the mindset to fight.

There is some truth to the confidence argument but if you don't have skills to back them then it won't help, in fact it could easily get you killed.

And true, karate may not "own" dick attacks so to speak but her training most certainly enabled her to attack their dicks with more power and precision. There certainly is some technique to that even if it isn't a cornerstone of the style, imagine an untrained girl just flailing for balls and hoping to get lucky? We could be reading a very different story here.
 
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Tom21

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It is interesting that she is doing knee strikes and throws in the video. Is it a special form of karate for self-defense or are these techniques usual Karate moves? I was just wondering because a friend of mine practised karate and he mostly learned kicks and punches.
 

Paul_D

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It is interesting that she is doing knee strikes and throws in the video. Is it a special form of karate for self-defense or are these techniques usual Karate moves? I was just wondering because a friend of mine practised karate and he mostly learned kicks and punches.
Karate was created for self defence. Kata is a record of the strikes, throws, joint locks, ground fighting etc for self defence. Long story short but the block/kick/punch version of karate that became popular is essentially the children's version of karate created by Itosu when karate was introduced to school children.
 

lklawson

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Kata is a record of the strikes, throws, joint locks, ground fighting etc for self defence.
To you.

There is no consensus, no vast chorus speaking in unison, among experts as to the meaning and intent of kata. There was a thread around here someone about just this issue.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Paul_D

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There is no consensus, no vast chorus speaking in unison, among experts as to the meaning and intent of kata. There was a thread around here someone about just this issue.
Kirk
Interesting, does a large number of people mis-understdning something change it's purpose?

If you give someone an ice cream scoop, and they have no idea what it is, and start using it for gardening does it become a trowel, or is it still an ice cream scoop?
 

oftheherd1

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To you.

There is no consensus, no vast chorus speaking in unison, among experts as to the meaning and intent of kata. There was a thread around here someone about just this issue.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

IKLAWSON - Sorry about the using of your name with lower case letters in another post. I was keying off of what it looked like under your name and in your ID in quoted posts. I will use all caps from now on since that is what you prefer.

As to your quoted post, I think you are correct that kata/forms isn't always well defined for students. And maybe for that reason not well understood. I think it is also possible it is left to students to advance sufficiently to make those types of connections themselves. I am no expert, since I have only studied one MA that had forms, and I didn't advance very far in it. My main art does not use forms, but only what we call techniques. Nevertheless, I thought forms were useful in learning blocks, punches and kicks if nothing else. I also thought that forms were a way to learn multiple attacker defense. As I said, I was never an expert.

You have probably seen Bill Mattocks' post below, but if not, and for others who haven't, I am quoting it as I think it is very informative. I think it describes the learning and adoption of what I always thought of as the essence of martial arts. Usually, I think it sneaks up on you and one day you realize you are immersed in and living what you have been taught.

I don't hate. Honest. And I do try to be polite. :)

When I started training, kata was just another thing. Part of my training. Required, along with basic exercises and the Japanese terms for our kata and exercises, for promotions. We were taught, of course, the 'meaning' of the kata we were learning, often known as 'bunkai'. We practiced kata with partners and without; when we practiced with partners, we practiced the bunkai, with the partner playing the part of the attacker who 'forced us' to do the attack or defense inside the kata.

It was only later, much later, that my eyes began to open to a fuller appreciation of kata. I would say 'understanding', but I cannot claim to have any real understanding yet. There is advanced bunkai, applications that are different than the 'obvious' bunkai for each part of the kata. That's fun and eye-opening and I love it. There is a depth to the bunkai that I won't live long enough to fully explore.

But it goes well beyond that, even though that would be quite enough to keep me busy forever.
I'm trying to think of an apt analogy, and I'm drawing a blank, but here's a couple that come close. It's like the difference between being given a mathematical formula for solving a given problem, and being given access to the whole of mathematics, free to more fully understand the solution you've been given, but also to experiment and develop your own solutions, solutions which might be more elegant or work even better for you.

It comes in bits and pieces, joyful little moments when you apply a technique from a kata, like say tipping an attacker's elbow up slightly while leveraging their forearm down, and suddenly realizing that this flows perfectly into another technique from another kata, even one that is overtly designed to do something else entirely, and it ties into your overall understanding of what the heck it is you're doing.

It's being in a meeting at work and suddenly realizing you are practicing kata when someone decides to toss and attack your way. You find yourself accepting, redirecting, off-balancing, and defeating your opponent and only later realizing that you just used your kata to deal with a business issue.

It is that 'ah ha!' moment when you see an attack coming during sparring and you react with a kata movement that doesn't even (on the surface) apply to the situation, but yet, it does, and holy cow, it works anyway, because the principle is solid and you've trained your body to do it. In one specific example, there is a move in Wansu kata where just before the 'dump', you pull your right hand back to your obi, preparatory to digging in and scooping up the opponent's leg; in this case, a punch came towards me and I used that same 'put my open hand on my obi' move to slap his attack down and away from me. That was actually automatic; I didn't think about doing it, but it worked perfectly and set me up to counter by turning my opponent's body towards me and opening them up. The basic bunkai of that kata doesn't address any use of that hand other than to place it on your obi and *then* use it to scoop the opponent prior to dumping them. Yeah, it works for that too. But the act of just getting your hand to the obi is also a strike/block and boom, there it is in the kata if you spend time thinking about it, and more so if you spend time practicing it. "It's all in there," as I hear over and over again.

For me, kata has become everything. It's more than just my basic exercises encoded into a series of movements that train the hand-eye coordination and create muscle memory. It is more than just a boring series of things I have to learn to get promoted (actually I don't have any more open handed kata to learn to be promoted, but I'll work on all my kata for the rest of my life and still won't be proficient at them). Kata is moving meditation, a book of recipes, a tome or storehouse of knowledge that opens when the mind is ready to see the answers. Kata is my friend and companion on my journey. I can talk to my kata, my kata talks back.

It's not mystical or anything. It's not a religion, nor is it spiritual, at least not to me. I'm not Japanese or Okinawan, and I don't particularly identify with the culture, I'm American and I think and act like one. But I recognize that something happened here. Kata developed for whatever historical reasons, and I have read some things that seem to indicate about as much thought went into it as I would think about how to change the oil in my car (get a bucket, get a wrench, buy some oil, get busy). But as time has passed, I have found something inside kata that to me represents a much deeper way to think about, well, everything. How it got there, I cannot say, but it sure does seem to be there. It's like reading a dictionary; it might seem like a weird pastime, but it sure is fun for those who have learned to take it as a storehouse of knowledge.

I don't think kata makes me a better karateka or a better fighter or a tough guy or anything at all specifically better, although as I illustrated, it can certainly help me and has done so. I think kata has opened my eyes to the fact that I am on a journey, one which doesn't have an end, and one which I deeply enjoy traveling.

So when I say that kata is karate and karate is kata, for me at least, it's true. It wasn't true in the beginning, but it is now. Again, for me, and I accept that it's not for everyone.
Please note that I agree with his post, but that doesn't mean anyone else has to do so, and my opinion is in no way binding on anyone else.
 

Steve

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Interesting, does a large number of people mis-understdning something change it's purpose?

If you give someone an ice cream scoop, and they have no idea what it is, and start using it for gardening does it become a trowel, or is it still an ice cream scoop?
what if the person using the scoop as a trowel said the same thing? In his mind, a large number of people are using a trowel to scoop ice cream. How can you be so sure you're not the trowel guy?

And, another consideration is that if it works as a trowel as well as for scooping ice cream, is either side wrong?
 

lklawson

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IKLAWSON - Sorry about the using of your name with lower case letters in another post. I was keying off of what it looked like under your name and in your ID in quoted posts. I will use all caps from now on since that is what you prefer.
haha I'm not mad, I'm just amused. It's not the lower or upper case. My name is Leslie Kirk Lawson. LKLawson. When I use it as a username (which is every time), I just lower-case it. lklawson. My first initial isn't i, either in lower or upper case. But many people assume that the first letter is capitalized while the others are lower case. I apreciate you trying to get it. Just call me Kirk. :)

As to your quoted post, I think you are correct that kata/forms isn't always well defined for students. And maybe for that reason not well understood. I think it is also possible it is left to students to advance sufficiently to make those types of connections themselves.
Well, that's not it, in this case. What I'm pointing out is that multiple very highly ranked and highly studied experts from various lineages simply DON'T AGREE with each other on the nature and purpose of kata. Some say it's a library of techniques, as Paul_D does above, but many others give it some other meaning such as exercise, coordination drills, flow drills, or a form of shadow-boxing.

Fukakoshi himself said of kata, "Once you have completely mastered kata, then you can adapt it to kumite" so clearly he thought it was a great deal more than merely "a record of the strikes, throws, joint locks, ground fighting etc."

So, while I concede that a great many karateka agree that the purpose of kata is that of a library of techniques, again, there most certainly isn't a consensus and I am amused by karateka who pronounce that their belief on the subject is the only correct one and that everyone else is wrong or "misunderstanding."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Interesting, does a large number of people mis-understdning something change it's purpose?

If you give someone an ice cream scoop, and they have no idea what it is, and start using it for gardening does it become a trowel, or is it still an ice cream scoop?
Apparently Funakoshi thought kata was much more than merely a "record."

Aside from that, I don't feel much like arguing with you. I wrote that kata as a "record" of techniques is what kata is to you, but there are many other (often highly trained and respected) karateka who disagree. You agree with my statement. If you think they're wrong, go convince them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

ballen0351

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what if the person using the scoop as a trowel said the same thing? In his mind, a large number of people are using a trowel to scoop ice cream. How can you be so sure you're not the trowel guy?

And, another consideration is that if it works as a trowel as well as for scooping ice cream, is either side wrong?
Because some things just are what they are. Most of us that actually train Karate and use Kata know its purpose. If a minority of others says its not well....sometimes your just wrong
 

ballen0351

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Fukakoshi himself said of kata, "Once you have completely mastered kata, then you can adapt it to kumite"
Kirk
Yes once you mastered the catalog of techniques your then able to apply them Im not sure what he saying is any different then most people
 

Steve

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Because some things just are what they are. Most of us that actually train Karate and use Kata know its purpose. If a minority of others says its not well....sometimes your just wrong
This actually made me laugh out loud..

Karate guys on this forum don't even agree about kata. The only consensus ive seen around here is that hanzou is wrong. No matter what. Beyond that, you guys are all over the board. Lol.
 

ballen0351

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This actually made me laugh out loud..

Karate guys on this forum don't even agree about kata. The only consensus ive seen around here is that hanzou is wrong. No matter what. Beyond that, you guys are all over the board. Lol.
lol then your not reading close enough. Most of the "Karate guys" on here are,pretty much the same with regards to kata. But you would not get it anyway
 

Steve

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lol then your not reading close enough. Most of the "Karate guys" on here are,pretty much the same with regards to kata. But you would not get it anyway
Or maybe You're not reading close enough, and are scooping your ice cream with a gardening tool. It's really impossible to know for sure.
 

Paul_D

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what if the person using the scoop as a trowel said the same thing? In his mind, a large number of people are using a trowel to scoop ice cream. How can you be so sure you're not the trowel guy?

And, another consideration is that if it works as a trowel as well as for scooping ice cream, is either side wrong?
I know, it's an interesting thought isn't it. Does it get to the point where eventually no one is really sure what something was originally for. And if, like you say, it serves the purpose the person is using it for is it s problem.
 

Paul_D

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Aside from that, I don't feel much like arguing with you.
It wasn't intended as an argument, although I understand why it may seem that way. I was just asking a question, it was a thought that occurred to me reading your reply.

I'll will try to word things more clearly next time.
 
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