I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks

[tkdroamer]

This is checkmark risk assessment at it's finest. You know there's a risk, and you just put in a CYA clause so you don't get sued or fined.

The fact you have a procedure to deal with an event doesn't mean you're protected from it. It's like insurance. My insurance company doesn't do anything to prevent my car from crashing. I still have to drive my car safely if I don't want to crash. My insurance company is just there so that if I do get into an accident, I don't also go into bankruptcy.

The risks go up because the allowed contact goes up. If I were to have an airsoft league that starts using metal BB guns when you hit 5 years experience, which would you say is the reason the league is more dangerous? Is it because my opponents have 5 years of experience, or because we upgraded from plastic to metal BBs?

This is so beyond a lack of logic that it doesn't deserve a response.

I have no reason to CYA. I could not care less whether you compete or not. Not my rules, not my writing.
If me or you want to compete, we are bound by those rules, just like everyone else. I am not the one trying (or is it crying) to get the bar lowered. Goodness knows, it has lowered enough the last few years.

No one in WT TKD is doing something outside the rules (metal BB's, really?). No one is expecting someone who is not experienced enough or prepared enough to compete. That would be on the competitor. Much more the opposite because it is a huge waste of tournament time. Why is that so hard to understand? Are you sure you are in the right sport? Maybe checkers is more your speed.

 

[skribs]

This is so beyond a lack of logic that it doesn't deserve a response.

I have no reason to CYA. I could not care less whether you compete or not. Not my rules, not my writing.
If me or you want to compete, we are bound by those rules, just like everyone else. I am not the one trying (or is it crying) to get the bar lowered. Goodness knows, it has lowered enough the last few years.
No one in WT TKD is doing something outside the rules (metal BB's, really?).

No one is expecting someone who is not experienced enough or prepared enough to compete.

That would be on the competitor. Much more the opposite because it is a huge waste of tournament time. Why is that so hard to understand? Are you sure you are in the right sport? Maybe checkers is more your speed.

Let's get back on topic, since my analogies went over your head and you've resorted to character insults instead of actual arguments. Here are three simple facts:

1. Concussions are permanent brain damage, they will not heal
2. No amount of training will make your brain less susceptible to concussions
3. The likelihood of getting a concussion is based much more on the amount of force allowed than on the skill level of the fighters

Please try and refute one of these facts. Because unless you can, your rants mean nothing.

 

[tkdroamer]

Let's get back on topic, since my analogies went over your head and you've resorted to character insults instead of actual arguments. Here are three simple facts:

1. Concussions are permanent brain damage, they will not heal
2. No amount of training will make your brain less susceptible to concussions
3. The likelihood of getting a concussion is based much more on the amount of force allowed than on the skill level of the fighters

Please try and refute one of these facts. Because unless you can, your rants mean nothing.

1. Disagree as stated.
According to the American Association of Neurological Surgeons (AANS), a single concussion will generally not cause permanent damage. Whether permanent damage to the brain results from a concussion is often a question of frequency or the amount of time between the first and second concussion.
Repetitive concussion and the time between seem to be the bigger issue in regard to CTE.

2. Fully disagree. That is like saying not being able to walk well does Not increase your likelihood of falling. Everything we do in life could be considered a concussion hazard. Can a brain be conditioned to be more resistive to a concussion? Yes. By training the body to protect the brain.
3. Fully disagree. Why do fighters or athletes in other sports train?

Man, you are just not making any sense.

 

[tkdroamer]

I imagine at least half of that million don't compete in that class because they aren't men.

This is correct. Currently, there are more women WT competitors than men.

 

[skribs]

1. Disagree as stated.
According to the American Association of Neurological Surgeons (AANS), a single concussion will generally not cause permanent damage. Whether permanent damage to the brain results from a concussion is often a question of frequency or the amount of time between the first and second concussion.
Repetitive concussion and the time between seem to be the bigger issue in regard to CTE.

1. I do stand corrected regarding a single concussion. However, this is not a universally-accepted position. How long does concussion last: long-term effects

Also, this is regarding a single concussion. Unless fighters are forced to retire after a single concussion, then they may face multiple concussions and be at much higher risk of CTE. And some studies show that you are at risk of CTE even if you've never had a concussion, but have taken multiple heavy blows.

2. Fully disagree. That is like saying not being able to walk well does Not increase your likelihood of falling. Everything we do in life could be considered a concussion hazard. Can a brain be conditioned to be more resistive to a concussion? Yes. By training the body to protect the brain.

Except, the sidewalk isn't trained to knock me down and smack me in the head. As much as I'm training to protect my brain, my opponents are training to hit it.

To make your analogy work, if you're 2 years old you walk on a sidewalk. By 5, the sidewalk is shaking. By 10, all sidewalks are permanently icy. And so on and so on.

And just because you can get an injury anywhere, does that mean you can't do things to prevent it? Risk isn't binary. Risk isn't "exists" or "doesn't exist". There are industry formulas to calculate the likelihood and impact of a risk, and best practices to reduce that risk to an acceptable level.

For example, I work in cybersecurity, where a big threat is ransomware. Which option should I take:

• Say, "Ransomware will always be a risk no matter what security protections we put in place", buy insurance for such an event, and call it a day.
• Provide phishing awareness training to users to make them less likely to click on the links, and then make sure we have technical security controls in place, such as email filters, antivirus, and up-to-date backups, in order to make it much more difficult for ransomware to get on the system, and then also have a response in place that prevents damage from occurring.

Your assessments of "risk exists, therefore deal with it" seems much more in line with the first one. I hope, for your company's sake, that you're either trolling here or you apply risk management principles much better in your real job.

3. Fully disagree. Why do fighters or athletes in other sports train?

To be better than the other opponent. I thought this would be obvious. If I am better, I am more likely to win. That is the primary purpose of training, especially in other sports.

If you were to ask a basketball player "Why do you practice your free throws?" Do you think his answer is "Safety" or "Because I want to score points"? Would basketball be a better game if you could purposefully knock out your opponent?

Competition is going to place you against players who are around your skill level. There are very few fighters who completely dominated their opponents over their entire career (and many that did have questions about whether they avoided certain fights). Yes, if I'm better, I'm less likely to receive a concussion blow from my opponent. That chance reduces significantly more if knockouts aren't allowed in the first place.

Unless you think concussion should be the appropriate punishment for losing. In which case I'd say you're either delusional or sadistic.

Man, you are just not making any sense.

Based on this discussion so far, if I'm not making any sense to you, it probably means I'm making perfect sense.

 

[tkdroamer]

1. I do stand corrected regarding a single concussion. However, this is not a universally-accepted position. How long does concussion last: long-term effects

Also, this is regarding a single concussion. Unless fighters are forced to retire after a single concussion, then they may face multiple concussions and be at much higher risk of CTE. And some studies show that you are at risk of CTE even if you've never had a concussion, but have taken multiple heavy blows.


Except, the sidewalk isn't trained to knock me down and smack me in the head. As much as I'm training to protect my brain, my opponents are training to hit it.

To make your analogy work, if you're 2 years old you walk on a sidewalk. By 5, the sidewalk is shaking. By 10, all sidewalks are permanently icy. And so on and so on.

And just because you can get an injury anywhere, does that mean you can't do things to prevent it? Risk isn't binary. Risk isn't "exists" or "doesn't exist". There are industry formulas to calculate the likelihood and impact of a risk, and best practices to reduce that risk to an acceptable level.

For example, I work in cybersecurity, where a big threat is ransomware. Which option should I take:

• Say, "Ransomware will always be a risk no matter what security protections we put in place", buy insurance for such an event, and call it a day.
• Provide phishing awareness training to users to make them less likely to click on the links, and then make sure we have technical security controls in place, such as email filters, antivirus, and up-to-date backups, in order to make it much more difficult for ransomware to get on the system, and then also have a response in place that prevents damage from occurring.

Your assessments of "risk exists, therefore deal with it" seems much more in line with the first one. I hope, for your company's sake, that you're either trolling here or you apply risk management principles much better in your real job.

To be better than the other opponent. I thought this would be obvious. If I am better, I am more likely to win. That is the primary purpose of training, especially in other sports.

If you were to ask a basketball player "Why do you practice your free throws?" Do you think his answer is "Safety" or "Because I want to score points"? Would basketball be a better game if you could purposefully knock out your opponent?

Competition is going to place you against players who are around your skill level. There are very few fighters who completely dominated their opponents over their entire career (and many that did have questions about whether they avoided certain fights). Yes, if I'm better, I'm less likely to receive a concussion blow from my opponent. That chance reduces significantly more if knockouts aren't allowed in the first place.

Unless you think concussion should be the appropriate punishment for losing. In which case I'd say you're either delusional or sadistic.



Based on this discussion so far, if I'm not making any sense to you, it probably means I'm making perfect sense.

Again, I go back to the OP, you want to compete in a type of competition where you do not like the rules. Find something else to do. It is really that simple.
If you think you have a leg to stand on to get the rules changed go for it. Lamenting your opinion on a forum is not going to get that done.

 

[skribs]

Again, I go back to the OP, you want to compete in a type of competition where you do not like the rules. Find something else to do. It is really that simple.
If you think you have a leg to stand on to get the rules changed go for it. Lamenting your opinion on a forum is not going to get that done.

God forbid I discuss things Taekwondo-related on a Taekwondo forum! The horror!

 

[Steve]

Concussions and brain injury seem to be in a lot of peoples’ minds right now. (Ha, on their minds)

Regarding rule sets and risk, I don’t really have any answers, as such. But this is in large part why I have lost interest in football and MMA, as a fan. The more I learn about CTE, the less enjoyable it is for me to watch people shorten their lives.

I totally understand what both sides of this discussion are saying. It’s complicated. I mean, is the answer to fundamentally change the rules in these sports to better protect peoples’ heads? I don’t know… maybe? Otherwise, there’s a bit of a Running Man element to it, if anyone understands that reference.

 

[skribs]

Concussions and brain injury seem to be in a lot of peoples’ minds right now. (Ha, on their minds)

Regarding rule sets and risk, I don’t really have any answers, as such. But this is in large part why I have lost interest in football and MMA, as a fan. The more I learn about CTE, the less enjoyable it is for me to watch people shorten their lives.

I totally understand what both sides of this discussion are saying. It’s complicated. I mean, is the answer to fundamentally change the rules in these sports to better protect peoples’ heads? I don’t know… maybe? Otherwise, there’s a bit of a Running Man element to it, if anyone understands that reference.

It's not really a fundamental change to the sport, since for most fighters (kids and adults that aren't black belts) it's 100% about scoring points. Even for adult black belts, you can win by points. It's not like MMA where a win by points is considered "leaving it in the hands of the judges."

 

[tkdroamer]

God forbid I discuss things Taekwondo-related on a Taekwondo forum! The horror!

You could insert any style into the OP and the results would be exactly the same.

 

[tkdroamer]

Concussions and brain injury seem to be in a lot of peoples’ minds right now. (Ha, on their minds)

Regarding rule sets and risk, I don’t really have any answers, as such. But this is in large part why I have lost interest in football and MMA, as a fan. The more I learn about CTE, the less enjoyable it is for me to watch people shorten their lives.

I totally understand what both sides of this discussion are saying. It’s complicated. I mean, is the answer to fundamentally change the rules in these sports to better protect peoples’ heads? I don’t know… maybe? Otherwise, there’s a bit of a Running Man element to it, if anyone understands that reference.

I have to say I do not get the reference. Can you elaborate?

 

[skribs]

You could insert any style into the OP and the results would be exactly the same.

If I were to talk about boxing, then the difference is it would be off topic here, and I would need to go to the boxing forum.

If you don't want to talk about things on a forum, then what are you doing here?

 

[Steve]

I have to say I do not get the reference. Can you elaborate?

It’s a novella written by Stephen King, one of the Bachman books. In it, people volunteer to take part in a game where they will likely be killed. They do it in the hopes of a big paycheck to help the folks they’re leaving behind.

Basically, the more I learn about CTE, the harder it is for me to enjoy watching people engage in sports where they are likely shortening their lives. Don’t get me wrong. It’s not a boycott or crusade. I just lost interest over time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I were to talk about boxing, then the difference is it would be off topic here, and I would need to go to the boxing forum.

What you are talking about is general striking art issue.

If head punch is not allowed,

- boxing and TKD will turn into point system fight.
- Sanda and MMA will let wrestler to dominate the ring.

IMO, the only effective tool for a striker to defeat a wrestler is to allow the striker to knock down/out the wrestler.

Not allowing head punch will give wrestler an easy way to obtain a clinch. When clinch happen, the striking game end right there and the wrestling game start. The striker won't have any chance to fight against a wrestler.

In the following no head contact Sanda clip, a striker's punch on the wrestler's nose (head contact) changed the game, but the striker still lost at the end.

 

[tkdroamer]

It’s a novella written by Stephen King, one of the Bachman books. In it, people volunteer to take part in a game where they will likely be killed. They do it in the hopes of a big paycheck to help the folks they’re leaving behind.

Basically, the more I learn about CTE, the harder it is for me to enjoy watching people engage in sports where they are likely shortening their lives. Don’t get me wrong. It’s not a boycott or crusade. I just lost interest over time.

Interesting. I get the sense today's athletes do not see it that way, but I suppose they are indirectly doing the same thing given the size of some of the player contracts.

 

[tkdroamer]

If I were to talk about boxing, then the difference is it would be off topic here, and I would need to go to the boxing forum.

If you don't want to talk about things on a forum, then what are you doing here?

Then someone could say you are talking about competitive ring/mat fighting and say you are off topic. You are crawlfishing.

 

[tkdroamer]

If I were to talk about boxing, then the difference is it would be off topic here, and I would need to go to the boxing forum.

If you don't want to talk about things on a forum, then what are you doing here?

Like every thread stays on topic? Oh sure.

 

[skribs]

Then someone could say you are talking about competitive ring/mat fighting and say you are off topic. You are crawlfishing.

This comment makes absolutely no sense. I'm discussing Taekwondo on a Taekwondo forum right now. If there is a better forum on MartialTalk to discuss Taekwondo competitions and our opinions of them, please let me know.

If I were to talk about boxing on a boxing forum, and they had a specific subforum for talking about competitive ring fighting, then that would make sense. But if I were to go to MartialTalk's boxing forum and talk about boxing, it wouldn't be off-topic.

You're trying to say that my post is off topic. You're the one making the wild claim here. Prove that it's off topic for this forum or give up on this talking point.

Like every thread stays on topic? Oh sure.

Threads at least start on topic, otherwise they get closed or moved to the appropriate forum. You can't blame me for putting this on the wrong forum if it goes off topic after I post it.

 

[tkdroamer]

This comment makes absolutely no sense. I'm discussing Taekwondo on a Taekwondo forum right now. If there is a better forum on MartialTalk to discuss Taekwondo competitions and our opinions of them, please let me know.

If I were to talk about boxing on a boxing forum, and they had a specific subforum for talking about competitive ring fighting, then that would make sense. But if I were to go to MartialTalk's boxing forum and talk about boxing, it wouldn't be off-topic.

You're trying to say that my post is off topic. You're the one making the wild claim here. Prove that it's off topic for this forum or give up on this talking point.

Threads at least start on topic, otherwise they get closed or moved to the appropriate forum. You can't blame me for putting this on the wrong forum if it goes off topic after I post it.

Sooo, you have not moved this thread off topic?

 

[skribs]

Sooo, you have not moved this thread off topic?

You're not even making any sense anymore. Can you point to me any post in this thread which is off-topic, either by me or anyone else? If you're going to make accusations, then they should be accusations of things that actually may have happened.

I can't tell if you're trolling, or just so far divorced from reality that you're making stuff.