I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks

Dirty Dog

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If I go to 12 competitions and get 2 concussions, and then I get in a self-defense situation and avoid one, am I really better off?
The answer is absolutely a maybe.
Because you didn't postulate what would have happened in that self defense situation otherwise. You might well have ended up dead. Head injuries can be anything from minor, no big deal things to hugely life changing. Dead is dead.
 
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The answer is absolutely a maybe.
Because you didn't postulate what would have happened in that self defense situation otherwise. You might well have ended up dead. Head injuries can be anything from minor, no big deal things to hugely life changing. Dead is dead.
My point is that the idea of "You must go through this dangerous thing or what you learn is useless" is one of those absolute statements.

Training should be about finding the right balance between realism and safety. As that is a subjective thing, having options available for those fighters who would prefer to err on the side of safety would help.

It is different in Taekwondo compared to most other striking sports, in that KO is not our primary goal. Points are typically what we go for. Points are all that we go for in lower levels and lower age groups, as KOing your opponent in those brackets will get you disqualified.

And I'm not necessarily advocating for the option to be removed for those who do want more realism. I think what @WaterGal suggested would be the best solution. A hobbyist bracket and a competitive bracket. Maybe it's just something that should be done more often at the local level.
 
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How do you prevent someone from getting the false confidence that - I touch you first, I win and you lose?

IMO, this kind of confidence is very dangerous in reality.
Many matches in full contact are decided by judges or points. Wrestling and BJJ have point systems for each technique. Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai have matches go to judge's decision if there is no finish.

That, and any person capable of rational thought should be able to tell the difference between a point sport and a real life situation. Just like someone who plays Mortal Kombat probably knows that they aren't going to shoot fireballs out of their fists if someone jumps them on the street.
 

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My point is that the idea of "You must go through this dangerous thing or what you learn is useless" is one of those absolute statements.

Training should be about finding the right balance between realism and safety. As that is a subjective thing, having options available for those fighters who would prefer to err on the side of safety would help.

It is different in Taekwondo compared to most other striking sports, in that KO is not our primary goal. Points are typically what we go for. Points are all that we go for in lower levels and lower age groups, as KOing your opponent in those brackets will get you disqualified.

And I'm not necessarily advocating for the option to be removed for those who do want more realism. I think what @WaterGal suggested would be the best solution. A hobbyist bracket and a competitive bracket. Maybe it's just something that should be done more often at the local level.
Show anywhere where someone practicing must 'go through this dangerous thing'.

As had been said over and over, there have been local level tournaments forever.
 

tkdroamer

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Many matches in full contact are decided by judges or points. Wrestling and BJJ have point systems for each technique. Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai have matches go to judge's decision if there is no finish.

That, and any person capable of rational thought should be able to tell the difference between a point sport and a real life situation. Just like someone who plays Mortal Kombat probably knows that they aren't going to shoot fireballs out of their fists if someone jumps them on the street.
Nearly All WT/TKD matches are decided points. WT/TKD has a clearly defined points system for techniques.
 

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If I can get KOs in competition, then what's the point in knowing how to defend them in a real fight?

If I go to 12 competitions and get 2 concussions, and then I get in a self-defense situation and avoid one, am I really better off?
Competition is also about seeing who is best. If youre not ready to get hurt, youre not ready to compete.
 
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Competition is also about seeing who is best. If youre not ready to get hurt, youre not ready to compete.
Level of allowed contact and level of skill required to win are unrelated from each other.
 

tkdroamer

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Level of allowed contact and level of skill required to win are unrelated from each other.
That may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard regarding a martial arts competition.
 
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That may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard regarding a martial arts competition.
If you are not going for knockout, then people will min/max more for going for points. It will require different skills and different athletic traits to be the best than if you're going for knockouts. But the skill requirement is still there.

The fact that you cannot divorce level of contact from level of skill does not make the statement ridiculous.
 

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If you are not going for knockout, then people will min/max more for going for points. It will require different skills and different athletic traits to be the best than if you're going for knockouts. But the skill requirement is still there.

The fact that you cannot divorce level of contact from level of skill does not make the statement ridiculous.
What do you mean by 'min/max for going for points?
 

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I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks​


How do you control the power of a spin hook kick? The power comes from the body spinning. It's not like a straight punch that you can pull it back just 1 inch away from your opponent's face.
 

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I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks​


How do you control the power of a spin hook kick? The power comes from the body spinning. It's not like a straight punch that you can pull it back just 1 inch away from your opponent's face.
How do you control the power of a spinning hook kick? By blocking it. Often times that is as easy as just stepping forward.
 

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I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks​


How do you control the power of a spin hook kick? The power comes from the body spinning. It's not like a straight punch that you can pull it back just 1 inch away from your opponent's face.
This is a misconception. PART of the power comes from the spin, not all of it. Just like a straight punch, you can indeed pull it short of the opponent. Because you control the spin.

If you want to follow through and return the kicking foot to the rear, you can do that by using the ball or toes of the foot for the point or impact and allowing the ankle to flex (or just relax it, really). The foot slides across, rather than directly impacting, and delivers very little power.

In some circumstances, a good kicker can also use the spinning hook when in very close range. The knee is flexed early, causing the heel to impact the BACK of the head. This can be delivered as a light tap with relative ease.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This is a misconception. PART of the power comes from the spin, not all of it.
Are you talking about a back kick changed into a hook kick instead? You use back kick to kick next to your opponent's head. You then change your back kick into a hook kick to kick the back of your opponent's head.

During the point system fight time, many people did their spinning hook kick this way. IMO, the amount of power is less than a full body rotated spinning hook kick. The hooking motion require only partial body rotation.
 
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Do you have a masters division? What are their rules like?
 
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What do you mean by 'min/max for going for points?
"Min/max" is a term used a lot in video games regarding the strategy for building a team or character. It typically means focusing on ways to maximize a desired trait or ability, while minimizing everything else. Sometimes it means maximizing multiple traits by picking the best options for both.

(Still using the video game analogy here, I'll make it a real-world example in a minute). For example, let's say you have a martial arts game. You could get different stats for striking or grappling. If your character is a boxer, then you would focus on anything that improves your punching and forget everything else, and you would be min/maxed for punching. Or if you're a kickboxer, you might try to optimize kicking and punching. If there was something that gave you a 10% boost to punching and something that gave you 5%, then the boxer might want to go with both of those, where a kickboxer would take the 10% boost, and also a similar 10% boost to kicking.

In the real world, we don't just put stats into our character. However, there are several things about how we train that might affect this:
  • Conditioning with a bigger priority on speed and cardio and less on power
  • Strikes trained in a way that encourages efficiency of movement over total energy transfer
  • Quicker footwork and defenses to react quicker to the faster strikes
Someone who trains for a year to be competitive in a knockout environment is going to look different than someone who trains for a year to be competitive in a point environment. Similar to how someone who is trained to competitive in powerlifting is going to look different than someone who trains to be competitive in sprinting.

Someone who trains for knockout competitions might even be at a slight disadvantage if put into a point setting against someone who trained for the point system. There might be scoring targets they are less likely to protect because they aren't high value in full contact. There might be some techniques that sneak in because they're medium-power techniques that can tag a point. And they might simply be a step slower.

Anything competitive is going to increase player skill, because the competition will force players to train physically and technically to be as good as they can, as well as to analyze fights and see if they can come up with new strategies or details to make techniques work better.

In a post-fight analysis, a knockout fighter might look at why he didn't land a knockout blow, or what he left open for his opponent to knock him out. A point fighter might look at why some techniques failed to score, or what he left open for his opponent to score. Both fighters will go back to practice with a problem to solve, which will ultimately make them better at the game. How do you tighten up to prevent your opponent landing a blow, and how do you set up your opponent so you are able to land your own?

It's kind of like how both boxing and BJJ are going to push fighters to their limits, even though there's basically 4 techniques in boxing (jab, cross, hook, uppercut) and about 4,000 techniques in BJJ. A boxer is going to be very, very good at those 4 punches, where a BJJ fighter is going to have to be comfortable in a ton of different situations. However, the relative lack of depth in each individual technique doesn't make BJJ any less competitive than boxing. Nor does boxing being relatively narrow in scope make it any less competitive than BJJ.

I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks​


How do you control the power of a spin hook kick? The power comes from the body spinning. It's not like a straight punch that you can pull it back just 1 inch away from your opponent's face.
There are a few different ways you can accomplish this.
  • On impact, recoil your foot by straightening your knee or rolling your hip, so that you do not follow through.
  • Adjust your timing so you are not spinning (or spinning as fast) at the moment of impact
  • Disconnect your foot from your body weight (think of it like swinging a nunchaku vs. swinging a stick) so that it is not going to strike with full force.
Basically, try to tap the head instead of driving all the way through.
Do you have a masters division? What are their rules like?
Are you talking about higher age divisions? In TKD, "Master" is an honorary based on rank (like Professor in BJJ). The rules don't change for different adult age groups, although local tournaments may differ.
 

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Are you talking about a back kick changed into a hook kick instead? You use back kick to kick next to your opponent's head. You then change your back kick into a hook kick to kick the back of your opponent's head.
No. That's why I said spinning hook kick. A front leg hook kick can also be used, especially in punching or grappling range. It can also be done with a sidekick, generally because they dodged and you missed. So you hook it back rather than withdrawing it along the same line as the kick.
It cannot be done with a properly performed back kick. A back kick is done with the toes pointed downward. The only way that flexing the knee would hit the back of the head would be if you kicked between their ribs and arm, which seems awkward. It also seems like they'd clamp down on your leg easily...
This usage is best limited to point sparring or as a distracting or unbalancing technique. It isn't super powerful.
During the point system fight time, many people did their spinning hook kick this way. IMO, the amount of power is less than a full body rotated spinning hook kick.
Point sparring does not require maximum power, and in many cases penalizes competitors for using excessive force.
"full body rotated spinning hook kick" is redundant. All spinning kicks, by definition, are full body rotation, whether back, side, or hook. You balance and pivot on the front leg, turning towards your back. You deliver the kick with the rear leg and then either complete the spin, returning to your original stance, or step down from the kick, moving forwards.

A hook kick is thrown differently depending on whether your goal is speed or power. This is a pretty good demonstration of the difference.
The hooking motion require only partial body rotation.
That isn't a spinning hook kick. You are probably thinking about a front leg hook kick.

There is a way to do a rear leg hook kick the way you are describing, but it is not a spinning hook kick. Rear leg hook kicks done this way are used to close distance while executing a deceptive attack. You balance and pivot on the front leg, but you turn forwards, not back. At this point, it looks like you're throwing a roundhouse kick. But instead of extending the leg, you keep it tucked until you pass your opponent. You then halt your rotation, and do a front leg hook kick. You can target pretty much any part of the body, depending on your skill level.

You can do the same thing with a roundhouse. Turn backwards as if you're going to throw a hook kick, keep the chamber longer, halt the rotation, and snap the kick out.

Done properly, you do your best to telegraph the fake kick and your opponent will move to counter that kick, providing you with an opening for the real one.

The are not powerful versions, and are also most useful for point matches.
 
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It cannot be done with a properly performed back kick. A back kick is done with the toes pointed downward. The only way that flexing the knee would hit the back of the head would be if you kicked between their ribs and arm, which seems awkward.
It depends on when you change your mind from back kick to hook kick. If you're already extended, it's too late. But you can certainly chamber and spin like for a back kick and do a hook kick instead.
 
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