I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks

tkdroamer

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No. That's why I said spinning hook kick. A front leg hook kick can also be used, especially in punching or grappling range. It can also be done with a sidekick, generally because they dodged and you missed. So you hook it back rather than withdrawing it along the same line as the kick.
It cannot be done with a properly performed back kick. A back kick is done with the toes pointed downward. The only way that flexing the knee would hit the back of the head would be if you kicked between their ribs and arm, which seems awkward. It also seems like they'd clamp down on your leg easily...
This usage is best limited to point sparring or as a distracting or unbalancing technique. It isn't super powerful.

Point sparring does not require maximum power, and in many cases penalizes competitors for using excessive force.
"full body rotated spinning hook kick" is redundant. All spinning kicks, by definition, are full body rotation, whether back, side, or hook. You balance and pivot on the front leg, turning towards your back. You deliver the kick with the rear leg and then either complete the spin, returning to your original stance, or step down from the kick, moving forwards.

A hook kick is thrown differently depending on whether your goal is speed or power. This is a pretty good demonstration of the difference.

That isn't a spinning hook kick. You are probably thinking about a front leg hook kick.

There is a way to do a rear leg hook kick the way you are describing, but it is not a spinning hook kick. Rear leg hook kicks done this way are used to close distance while executing a deceptive attack. You balance and pivot on the front leg, but you turn forwards, not back. At this point, it looks like you're throwing a roundhouse kick. But instead of extending the leg, you keep it tucked until you pass your opponent. You then halt your rotation, and do a front leg hook kick. You can target pretty much any part of the body, depending on your skill level.

You can do the same thing with a roundhouse. Turn backwards as if you're going to throw a hook kick, keep the chamber longer, halt the rotation, and snap the kick out.

Done properly, you do your best to telegraph the fake kick and your opponent will move to counter that kick, providing you with an opening for the real one.

The are not powerful versions, and are also most useful for point matches.
The video does a good job of showing the potential hazard of the kick (whatever you call it). It would be more effective to show the target in the video since it is hard to tell exactly how the body is positioned relative to the kicking foot. He appears to leave his torso very exposed, but it could be the angle of the video making it look that way.
For most people, the post-kick motion is just as important, if not more, than the kick itself. Assuming you are not trying to do a knockout kick. Which could still matter depending on the rules.
When a person is flexible enough to throw a spinning hook kick to the head from punching range, all bets are off on pulling the kick. This is why I said the best was to control a hook kick is to block it.

If you think about it as a ratio, the number of knockouts vs. matches is very, very, very low. While they are legal, they are very seldom intentional. More of a side effect of the speed involved.
 

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The video does a good job of showing the potential hazard of the kick (whatever you call it). It would be more effective to show the target in the video since it is hard to tell exactly how the body is positioned relative to the kicking foot. He appears to leave his torso very exposed, but it could be the angle of the video making it look that way.
The torso is exposed, but it's also moved out of range by the way he leans. The lean also helps to balance the extended leg, especially on the more power-oriented version, preventing the centrifugal forces from disrupting your balance during the spin. And, of course, if you're attacking that torso during the very brief time it's exposed, you're going to find it somewhat more difficult to avoid figurative decapitation.
For most people, the post-kick motion is just as important, if not more, than the kick itself. Assuming you are not trying to do a knockout kick. Which could still matter depending on the rules.
I do my best to make every strike a knockout. But I'm well past the competition age, and it's never been a primary interest for our MDK system.
When a person is flexible enough to throw a spinning hook kick to the head from punching range, all bets are off on pulling the kick. This is why I said the best was to control a hook kick is to block it.
I do recommend some caution with this. I think the best way to defend against it is deflection or avoidance rather than a typical linear TKD block. In my youth, I saw a fellows forearm snap from an outside block used against a spinning hook kick. It was...distressing, although obviously more so for him.
 

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It depends on when you change your mind from back kick to hook kick. If you're already extended, it's too late. But you can certainly chamber and spin like for a back kick and do a hook kick instead.
But then you're not doing a back kick, now are you?
To change from a back kick to a hook kick, you'd need to do so early. The leg needs to be extended earlier in the rotation in order to do a hook kick. If you've spun far enough for the back kick, it's too late to change your mind.
 
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But then you're not doing a back kick, now are you?
Where is the cutoff between doing a kick and not doing a kick?
To change from a back kick to a hook kick, you'd need to do so early. The leg needs to be extended earlier in the rotation in order to do a hook kick. If you've spun far enough for the back kick, it's too late to change your mind.
My Master taught to do the spin hook kick almost exactly like a back kick. It was more like a whip than a wheel. Kind of like the difference between a hook punch and a haymaker. The only difference between the two is that we flared our hip on the hook kick to get the kick out to the side enough for the foot to come around. It's a faster version of the kick, and much more linear.

In both kicks, the extension starts when your hips are square to your opponent. Using this technique, it would not be too late when you're spun into position for the back kick, because you're also in position for the hook kick.
 

tkdroamer

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Where is the cutoff between doing a kick and not doing a kick?

My Master taught to do the spin hook kick almost exactly like a back kick. It was more like a whip than a wheel. Kind of like the difference between a hook punch and a haymaker. The only difference between the two is that we flared our hip on the hook kick to get the kick out to the side enough for the foot to come around. It's a faster version of the kick, and much more linear.

In both kicks, the extension starts when your hips are square to your opponent. Using this technique, it would not be too late when you're spun into position for the back kick, because you're also in position for the hook kick.
Very different mechanics between the two kicks.
A back kick is, for the most part, a linear kick and the body position will reflect that, much like a side kick. A hook kick and wheel kick are arching or circular kicks. Much more of the upper body is involved in the kick and foot placement is very different.
 
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Very different mechanics between the two kicks.
A back kick is, for the most part, a linear kick and the body position will reflect that, much like a side kick. A hook kick and wheel kick are arching or circular kicks. Much more of the upper body is involved in the kick and foot placement is very different.
The hook kick thrown the way my Master taught me is virtually identical to the back kick. It's thrown just far enough to the side that it can hit the side of the head. It's basically thrown over the opponent's shoulder.

Both the back kick and our hook kick is chambered in the same spot. Both have you lean forward (away from the opponent) to throw your hips towards them, both have the kicking foot basically touching the other knee as they pass by.

The kicking motion is very similar to what Scott Adkins describes here, except the upper body motion in our version has less upper body rotation.


You'll notice his version of the kick is not a looping arc (and in fact, he doesn't like the looping arc). His version has the foot extend close to the target, so he just needs to hook the leg in order to strike.

This next clip from Howcast has the upper body motion I'm talking about, but a much wider angle on the kick itself:


Here's one that matches both the upper body and lower body by Alex Wong:


The shoulders are square leading up to the kick, and come around on the follow-through. But it is 100% built on the turning back kick or spinning side kick instead of coming around in an arc like a wheel kick.
 
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I also want to be clear. I'm not saying the wheel kick is wrong, or that any of these variables are wrong if not done the way my Master taught them. As with most techniques, it's situational when to apply each variation. I'm merely defending that this is one way of doing a spinning hook kick, and what the pros are compared to the way wheel kicks are thrown.
 

tkdroamer

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The hook kick thrown the way my Master taught me is virtually identical to the back kick. It's thrown just far enough to the side that it can hit the side of the head. It's basically thrown over the opponent's shoulder.

Both the back kick and our hook kick is chambered in the same spot. Both have you lean forward (away from the opponent) to throw your hips towards them, both have the kicking foot basically touching the other knee as they pass by.

The kicking motion is very similar to what Scott Adkins describes here, except the upper body motion in our version has less upper body rotation.


You'll notice his version of the kick is not a looping arc (and in fact, he doesn't like the looping arc). His version has the foot extend close to the target, so he just needs to hook the leg in order to strike.

This next clip from Howcast has the upper body motion I'm talking about, but a much wider angle on the kick itself:


Here's one that matches both the upper body and lower body by Alex Wong:


The shoulders are square leading up to the kick, and come around on the follow-through. But it is 100% built on the turning back kick or spinning side kick instead of coming around in an arc like a wheel kick.
Adkin's kick is very good. But it is not a kick you are going to change mid-kick. The first video does a good job of showing the upper body influence used in the hook kick. Throw your upper body like that with a back kick and you will over-rotate.

Ok's kick is rather unorthodox. It looks under-rotated and very wide. This is more of a current 'WT' style kick.

Wong's hook is similar to Ok's. But her explanation is different and not consistent with most TKD teaching. It is very WT. Notice how turned up her toes are in the back kick demo. This is not a back kick. She really glossed over that part.

Nowhere have I heard anyone say looping arc. Adkin's hook is circular. Most of the back kick demos are linear. A wheel kick may be thought of more as a loop I suppose. More of an ellipse.
 
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Adkin's kick is very good. But it is not a kick you are going to change mid-kick.
I would consider the chamber as the cutoff point where you can switch from one kick to the other. At the point where you are spun into position for a back kick and chambered for it, you can switch to a hook kick. Once you start extending the kick, it gets a lot trickier, but you can open the hips to get the kick outside.**
Ok's kick is rather unorthodox. It looks under-rotated and very wide. This is more of a current 'WT' style kick.
This is a thread about WT, it would make sense we would be looking at WT style kicks. Is the WT spin hook kick somehow not a spin hook kick?
Wong's hook is similar to Ok's. But her explanation is different and not consistent with most TKD teaching. It is very WT.
Again, this is a WT thread. Earlier you were criticizing me because you didn't think I was WT. Now you're criticizing my examples that are?
Notice how turned up her toes are in the back kick demo. This is not a back kick. She really glossed over that part.
As I said above, there is variation in each detail of a kick based on a number of factors. You can start with the toes chambered down like a back kick or chambered to the side like a side kick, and turn both of those chambers into a hook kick.
Nowhere have I heard anyone say looping arc.
Do you need me to define these words for you, or are you capable of picking it up from context?
Adkin's hook is circular. Most of the back kick demos are linear. A wheel kick may be thought of more as a loop I suppose. More of an ellipse.
All three kicks in this example are thrown straight from the chamber, and the circular motion comes more from bending the knee than from the hip* or from the body rotation. The shape of the WT hook kick in these examples is more like a 7 or an L. The foot travels straight, just slightly off target. At the apex of the kick, the knee bends again, in order to swing into the opponent's head. The opening of the hips is mostly a linear thrust like a back kick.

Compare this to a wheel kick (what people typically think of as a spinning hook kick or spinning heel kick). In the wheel kick, the knee and foot start traveling around the hips instead of under them. The hips swing around instead of pushing straight back. The foot follows a curved path instead of a linear path with a sharp corner. The foot will also swing much wider.

Adkin's kick is only circular from the knee at the apex of the kick. It's not circular for the extension of the leg up until that point.

*Ok's kick does have some hip swing after the apex, because it is extended further off-target than the other examples I provided. However, he also extends linearly, instead of swinging during the extension.

**Edit-to-add: It's actually not as tricky as I thought. You just have to flair your knee a little. You can do this almost up to the moment of impact.
 
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tkdroamer

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I would consider the chamber as the cutoff point where you can switch from one kick to the other. At the point where you are spun into position for a back kick and chambered for it, you can switch to a hook kick. Once you start extending the kick, it gets a lot trickier, but you can open the hips to get the kick outside.**

This is a thread about WT, it would make sense we would be looking at WT style kicks. Is the WT spin hook kick somehow not a spin hook kick?

Again, this is a WT thread. Earlier you were criticizing me because you didn't think I was WT. Now you're criticizing my examples that are?

As I said above, there is variation in each detail of a kick based on a number of factors. You can start with the toes chambered down like a back kick or chambered to the side like a side kick, and turn both of those chambers into a hook kick.

Do you need me to define these words for you, or are you capable of picking it up from context?

All three kicks in this example are thrown straight from the chamber, and the circular motion comes more from bending the knee than from the hip* or from the body rotation. The shape of the WT hook kick in these examples is more like a 7 or an L. The foot travels straight, just slightly off target. At the apex of the kick, the knee bends again, in order to swing into the opponent's head. The opening of the hips is mostly a linear thrust like a back kick.

Compare this to a wheel kick (what people typically think of as a spinning hook kick or spinning heel kick). In the wheel kick, the knee and foot start traveling around the hips instead of under them. The hips swing around instead of pushing straight back. The foot follows a curved path instead of a linear path with a sharp corner. The foot will also swing much wider.

Adkin's kick is only circular from the knee at the apex of the kick. It's not circular for the extension of the leg up until that point.

*Ok's kick does have some hip swing after the apex, because it is extended further off-target than the other examples I provided. However, he also extends linearly, instead of swinging during the extension.

**Edit-to-add: It's actually not as tricky as I thought. You just have to flair your knee a little. You can do this almost up to the moment of impact.
'L' or '7' are good analogies of the kick shape relative to the travel of the foot. I have even heard it described as an inverted capital 'U' where you are literally pulling the head back toward you.

Are you suggesting all three kicks are the same?

Leaning on them being WT kicks because this is a WT thread is very weak given all three kicks are different.

Yes, all 3 kicks are thrown from the chamber (all kicks?) but the chambers are different, for a number of reasons.

There must be some stylistic differences in the way you were taught a back kick.
As much as I like Alex Wong, I cannot agree with her description of the kicks. That is not being critical (which isn't always a bad thing), that is just being different.
 
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'L' or '7' are good analogies of the kick shape relative to the travel of the foot. I have even heard it described as an inverted capital 'U' where you are literally pulling the head back toward you.

Are you suggesting all three kicks are the same?

Leaning on them being WT kicks because this is a WT thread is very weak given all three kicks are different.

Yes, all 3 kicks are thrown from the chamber (all kicks?) but the chambers are different, for a number of reasons.

There must be some stylistic differences in the way you were taught a back kick.
As much as I like Alex Wong, I cannot agree with her description of the kicks. That is not being critical (which isn't always a bad thing), that is just being different.
I give up. You criticized me because I was not WT. Then you criticized my examples because they are WT. Then when I agreed they are WT, you turn around and criticize me for saying "they are WT" - an observation you stated in the previous post.

You're not arguing in good faith. You're just being contrarian. I have no idea what your actual opinions are, because your arguments have had the consistency of dice.
 

tkdroamer

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I give up. You criticized me because I was not WT. Then you criticized my examples because they are WT. Then when I agreed they are WT, you turn around and criticize me for saying "they are WT" - an observation you stated in the previous post.

You're not arguing in good faith. You're just being contrarian. I have no idea what your actual opinions are, because your arguments have had the consistency of dice.
All three of your videos are 'WT' people, right?
Are all three kicks the same? Absolutely not.
So, where does that leave your argument? Somewhere in the ether. There are just so many variations. If anything, that is what your videos are proof of.
 
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All three of your videos are 'WT' people, right?
I don't know their affiliation. I found videos of kicks that -at least in some way- look the way I was describing. You applied the WT label to them. Then when I also used it, you blamed me for having a weak argument.
There are just so many variations. If anything, that is what your videos are proof of.
That was part of the point I was making earlier in the thread. It's also a moot point, because I don't think any of us are arguing that there is only one true way to do a kick. There's not much point in arguing a point we agree on. Unless you do think there is only one way to do the spinning hook kick? I'm not sure. A bit ago you were making fun of the "WT" way of doing it compared with the "most TKD teaching" way of doing it.

Again, I'm getting very confused as to what your argument even is, because you seem to be on both sides of it. Especially because you seemed personally offended on the first page that I would dare try to change WT (suggesting it is something that personally affects you), and now on this page you seem to be creating distance between yourself and WT. Again, I can only conclude that all you're doing is being a contrarian. On page 1, you thought I wasn't WT, so you took up the persona of someone who was. On page 6, I'm linking to videos that you associate with WT, so you take up the persona of someone who isn't.

For what it's worth, the argument I was making when I posted those videos is that a spin hook kick can resemble a back kick. And, by extension, that it's very easy to start with a back kick and turn it into a hook kick. But that was in response to your post #106, and by now I'm writing post #115, so you've probably changed your position again.
 

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How do you prevent someone from getting the false confidence that - I touch you first, I win and you lose?

IMO, this kind of confidence is very dangerous in reality.
This was exactly why I got out of TKD. I was landing solid kicks and not getting points awarded. Once I literally side kicked someone on their butt and he slid out of the contest area and no point. Then he touched a kick on me and got a point. I transitioned to judo/Sambo. The tap outs didn't lie.
 
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This was exactly why I got out of TKD. I was landing solid kicks and not getting points awarded. Once I literally side kicked someone on their butt and he slid out of the contest area and no point. Then he touched a kick on me and got a point. I transitioned to judo/Sambo. The tap outs didn't lie.
Did they give you a reason why those kicks didn't score?
 
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It was probably 24 years ago. But no. I'm not an emotional guy, I don't mind losing, but I do like the world to make sense to me.
It just sounds like a really strange situation, unless for example your kicks were on them when they were already out of bounds, or you were not kicking in the target area, or you were in a low-contact bracket and so high contact was not allowed. In my experience, there's plenty of mis-judging that goes on, but if you got such a blatant strike, then the two most likely explanations are that you didn't have a legal strike (something that you should have known going into the match) or that the judges were corrupt.

As an example, I've seen first-hand people DQ'd from TKD competitions because they grabbed the other person's chestguard and punched them in the face. Which is something they should have known when they signed up.
 

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