Taekwondo - the public image - why it sucks!

[Manny]

Mark, you've asked a very serious and direct question. It deserves a serious and direct answer if anything is going to come of it other than just another thread on some web board.

First, what IS the public image. Difficult to answer for ALL the public, but we can generally start with what is probable. Taekwondo, as an image, is day care kiddie karate. It isn't a serious martial art. And to be blunt, it isn't really a martial art it is a martial sport. It caters to children and allows 6 year old black belts to run around yelling 'hi-ya'. It offers a questionable Olympic sport and local competitions for bullies and poor sports, including the adults. It has belts that have every color of the rainbow including stripes to keep the carrot dangling in front of the kid (or adult doing a hobby), with a $50 tag attached to each. It has a easily achievable BB in the shortest amount of time because hey...if a 6 year old can do it...

That is the image of TKD. And to be honest, that is just what many people want. It makes them more money that way.

In my area TKD schools come and go. They have no staying power because to be honest, with the internet, people are waking up to what a crock TKD actually has become. The schools in my area that have demonstrated staying power are Okinawan Karate, Aikido and Jujutsu. Why? They are perceived, justifiably, as serious martial arts with stringent standards. The Aikido school for example has a minimum of five years to BB if all requirements are passed. The student wears a white belt the entire time until BB is achieved.



Alright, let's talk. You've seen me and Glenn go around on this. You've seen my deliberate and straight-forward view on the WTF and KKW (and others). There is a reason Mark (and everyone)...they are a joke and SHOULD make you want to vomit in your own mouth. They violate their own standards on a whim. They have zero accountability. Leaders have committed crimes against the organization and other members. There has been deliberate racial discrimination. The majority of BB's in the organization belong to children in Korea where it is passed out like candy. And now they have a world wide money grab...er, special testing.

And this is suppose to be the premier TKD organization? Really? Seriously? And then you wonder why TKD gets such a bad rap?

How about all of you ditch the WTF and KKW? Oh, I know someone will say they provide a unified standard to follow. My response, what unified standard? The one they make you follow or the one for their buddies? Which side of the double-standard are you? Those that sing the praises of these corrupt organizations...what is there angle? Are they hooked into them in some way that requires the orgs continued existence and financial flow? Are they hooked into it for their rank? Have they spent so much time and money that they have nothing else without it? Serious questions.

Maybe a BUNCH of you should for a cooperative? One with serious and strict standards and rules that don't get changed at a whim. One that doesn't charge an arm and a leg to join. Here's a thought...make it free (or at least only what is needed to print a cert and ship it...about $10). The ones that are only in TKD for the money won't join, but then you don't need or want them anyway.

The KKW and the other big orgs aren't going to change unless they are really shoved hard to do so. And no one is really going to be doing any shoving anytime soon are they? Be honest. This makes a dandy web discussion but that's all it is isn't it? Great place to rant and complain but it isn't like any of you are going to do anything...are you? Here's a little lesson from physics; an object at rest (KKW) tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force (you).

So...does any of this go beyond MT or is it just a feel-good-to-rant thread?

It's sad but you are true about almost anything on this reply.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Another point in all this is jelousy. Tkd takes a huge share of the martial arts dollar and from a business perspective this would cause a lot of jelousy. I know the hall we train in has a karate class that trains after us. The karate instructor can only shake his head as 50 tkdists leave the hall and he starts his karate class with 10 students, this will always inherently cause some jelousy. Tall poppie syndrome happens in all walks of life.

 

[oftheherd1]

Another point in all this is jelousy. Tkd takes a huge share of the martial arts dollar and from a business perspective this would cause a lot of jelousy. I know the hall we train in has a karate class that trains after us. The karate instructor can only shake his head as 50 tkdists leave the hall and he starts his karate class with 10 students, this will always inherently cause some jelousy. Tall poppie syndrome happens in all walks of life.

Yes, times change. I can remember when it was the other way around. When you told people you studied TKD, you had to explain that it was Korean Karate.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Mark, you've asked a very serious and direct question. It deserves a serious and direct answer if anything is going to come of it other than just another thread on some web board.

First, what IS the public image. Difficult to answer for ALL the public, but we can generally start with what is probable. Taekwondo, as an image, is day care kiddie karate. It isn't a serious martial art. And to be blunt, it isn't really a martial art it is a martial sport. It caters to children and allows 6 year old black belts to run around yelling 'hi-ya'. It offers a questionable Olympic sport and local competitions for bullies and poor sports, including the adults. It has belts that have every color of the rainbow including stripes to keep the carrot dangling in front of the kid (or adult doing a hobby), with a $50 tag attached to each. It has a easily achievable BB in the shortest amount of time because hey...if a 6 year old can do it...

That is the image of TKD. And to be honest, that is just what many people want. It makes them more money that way.

In my area TKD schools come and go. They have no staying power because to be honest, with the internet, people are waking up to what a crock TKD actually has become. The schools in my area that have demonstrated staying power are Okinawan Karate, Aikido and Jujutsu. Why? They are perceived, justifiably, as serious martial arts with stringent standards. The Aikido school for example has a minimum of five years to BB if all requirements are passed. The student wears a white belt the entire time until BB is achieved.



Alright, let's talk. You've seen me and Glenn go around on this. You've seen my deliberate and straight-forward view on the WTF and KKW (and others). There is a reason Mark (and everyone)...they are a joke and SHOULD make you want to vomit in your own mouth. They violate their own standards on a whim. They have zero accountability. Leaders have committed crimes against the organization and other members. There has been deliberate racial discrimination. The majority of BB's in the organization belong to children in Korea where it is passed out like candy. And now they have a world wide money grab...er, special testing.

And this is suppose to be the premier TKD organization? Really? Seriously? And then you wonder why TKD gets such a bad rap?

How about all of you ditch the WTF and KKW? Oh, I know someone will say they provide a unified standard to follow. My response, what unified standard? The one they make you follow or the one for their buddies? Which side of the double-standard are you? Those that sing the praises of these corrupt organizations...what is there angle? Are they hooked into them in some way that requires the orgs continued existence and financial flow? Are they hooked into it for their rank? Have they spent so much time and money that they have nothing else without it? Serious questions.

Maybe a BUNCH of you should for a cooperative? One with serious and strict standards and rules that don't get changed at a whim. One that doesn't charge an arm and a leg to join. Here's a thought...make it free (or at least only what is needed to print a cert and ship it...about $10). The ones that are only in TKD for the money won't join, but then you don't need or want them anyway.

The KKW and the other big orgs aren't going to change unless they are really shoved hard to do so. And no one is really going to be doing any shoving anytime soon are they? Be honest. This makes a dandy web discussion but that's all it is isn't it? Great place to rant and complain but it isn't like any of you are going to do anything...are you? Here's a little lesson from physics; an object at rest (KKW) tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force (you).

So...does any of this go beyond MT or is it just a feel-good-to-rant thread?

I was going to reply to this thread, but KSD did such a perfect job, I am just going to point at what he wrote.

AOG

 

[Manny]

Another point in all this is jelousy. Tkd takes a huge share of the martial arts dollar and from a business perspective this would cause a lot of jelousy. I know the hall we train in has a karate class that trains after us. The karate instructor can only shake his head as 50 tkdists leave the hall and he starts his karate class with 10 students, this will always inherently cause some jelousy. Tall poppie syndrome happens in all walks of life.

Oh yes, here in my city the most successfull martial arts dojangs/dojos are the TKD ones, the ones who have plenty of kids.

Manny

 

[RobinTKD]

Is this really how it is in North America? Over here in the UK the 2 biggest orgs are UKTA and TAGB, both ITF style TKD, so maybe we don't get it so much here with the WTF and KKW, but I've been to a good few clubs and the youngest BB I've ever seen (in any martial art) was 9, and he was definitely deserving of it, great technique and focus, and more power than is right for a kid of that age, the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.

Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits

 

[ETinCYQX]

Is this really how it is in North America? Over here in the UK the 2 biggest orgs are UKTA and TAGB, both ITF style TKD, so maybe we don't get it so much here with the WTF and KKW, but I've been to a good few clubs and the youngest BB I've ever seen (in any martial art) was 9, and he was definitely deserving of it, great technique and focus, and more power than is right for a kid of that age, the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.

Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits

:BSmeter:

 

[Cyriacus]

Is this really how it is in North America? Over here in the UK the 2 biggest orgs are UKTA and TAGB, both ITF style TKD, so maybe we don't get it so much here with the WTF and KKW, but I've been to a good few clubs and the youngest BB I've ever seen (in any martial art) was 9, and he was definitely deserving of it, great technique and focus, and more power than is right for a kid of that age, the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.

Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits

Since someone branded this in bollocks-o-vision, i can confirm that the Organisation is very much prominent in the UK.
Im not sure about the 9yo though.

 

[RobinTKD]

I'm not entirely sure what is supposed to be ******** about what i said? I didn't say that the WTF and KKW aren't big over here, but twice the amount of people study ITF in England. The national championships are an ITF based sparring system in which the finals are usually between either 2 tagb fighters or tagb and ukta. the WTF has only really got bigger over here in the last couple of years.

 

[ETinCYQX]

"Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits "

That's an asinine thing to say and pretty damn far from being North America exclusive or WTF exclusive.

 

[Cyriacus]

"Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits "

That's an asinine thing to say and pretty damn far from being North America exclusive or WTF exclusive.

Might i interject here, and recommend in future, making the text you are referring to Bold, or Italic, or somesuch?

 

[andyjeffries]

I'm not entirely sure what is supposed to be ******** about what i said? I didn't say that the WTF and KKW aren't big over here, but twice the amount of people study ITF in England.

Where are you getting your stats from? I couldn't find reliable stats on practitioner numbers last time I looked, but comparing the number of BTC registered instructors (as the only metric available), the BTCB had far more than any other single ITF or independent group and 2/3 of all the independent/ITF groups combinedd. Also bear in mind that there are a lot more KKW Taekwondo practitioners outside the BTCB than in it (UKTDC, being an obvious example of a non-BTCB, non-BTC group).

For example, the BTCB list of BTC registered instructors contains 1,155 names. The BTC stats on the TAGB shows 585 and the others (some of which may be actually Kukkiwon-style) add up to 1162 (212 + 51 + 130 + 178 + 280 + 28 + 67 + 53 + 47 + 71 + 13 + 32).

So, a while ago I had it in mind that the ITF was far larger but have no stats to prove this and it seems that it may actually not be the case. Even the recent Sport England activity survey for Taekwondo doesn't describe style of Taekwondo, so we don't have stats from them.

My question obviously is then - for you to say "twice the amount of people" - where are you getting this from?

The national championships are an ITF based sparring system in which the finals are usually between either 2 tagb fighters or tagb and ukta. the WTF has only really got bigger over here in the last couple of years.

But you're referring to the ITF National Championship. What about the BTCB National Championships? Or the BTCB British Open? Of course the ITF National Championships contain finals with ITF-stylists, I think that's a given ;-)

The WTF/KKW Taekwondo presence in the UK has always been a constant in my mind, but I guess we're just from different sides of the fence so maybe it's only recently they've made their presence more felt over your side of the fence...

 

[andyjeffries]

Since someone branded this in bollocks-o-vision, i can confirm that the Organisation is very much prominent in the UK.

The TAGB is very prominent in the UK, I absolutely agree. Personally I think that's due to better marketing prowess than the KKW/WTF presences, rather than size though.

 

[andyjeffries]

the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.

That may be a big difference between ITF Taekwon-do and KKW Taekwondo in the UK then. I NEVER have to explain what Taekwondo is and I NEVER would tell people it's Korean Karate. I don't know if that's a difference in where we live (you live in Scotland, right?). I work in London and live just north of London. Adverts for Taekwondo in the 2012 Olympics have been in the free daily papers down here.

Even going back a long while though, before it was as well known, I would have explained that it's a mainly kicking martial art and sport (before Olympics, including the word Olympics after 1988) and never have thought to use Karate as a comparison (unless I was explaining "a martial art, you know, like Karate, Aikido, Judo but mainly kicking" if they looked blank at "martial art").

Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits

I think a lot of people are not getting your British sense of humour on this one mate ;-)

 

[Cyriacus]

The TAGB is very prominent in the UK, I absolutely agree. Personally I think that's due to better marketing prowess than the KKW/WTF presences, rather than size though.

Possibly.
The only reason it wouldnt surprise me if they had a higher presence in the UK is that we god a HUGE turnout from Team UK in NZ last year. As in, even when compared to any of the other given Countries. Granted, most were just Spectating, but still. It was alot of people.

Personally though, ive never cared which Organisation has a higher presence. Were both Big Organisations, aiming for much in the same thing. Though its completely off topic, ill use here to say that ill never get why so many people (Albeit, i have yet to see such a person on this site in the recent past; I found one post many pages into the past trying to compare Orgs) try and debate pros and cons of Organisations, when its all subjective. Look at Karate - It has so many variations at this point, that you may as well cut off the Karate part of the name, and just call it Kenpo/Shotokan/Kyokushin/IsshanRyu(Is that how its spelt?) or whathaveyou. Same stuff, different ways of doing the exact same thing.

 

[RobinTKD]

That may be a big difference between ITF Taekwon-do and KKW Taekwondo in the UK then. I NEVER have to explain what Taekwondo is and I NEVER would tell people it's Korean Karate. I don't know if that's a difference in where we live (you live in Scotland, right?). I work in London and live just north of London. Adverts for Taekwondo in the 2012 Olympics have been in the free daily papers down here.

No I live in Northamptonshire, but i personally have never met a WTF/KKW practitioner in the UK, when i first started learning TKD i honestly thought (albeit very naively) that the style had never made it over here. Since having posted my original comment, i've spoken to a few of the more senior grades at my class and they agree with you that the WTF is getting bigger, faster in the UK now. The TAGB really don't seem to have that strong a presence around this area so much, there are A LOT more independent clubs, and the UKTA are almost non-existent around here now when previously every other club was UKTA.

Even going back a long while though, before it was as well known, I would have explained that it's a mainly kicking martial art and sport (before Olympics, including the word Olympics after 1988) and never have thought to use Karate as a comparison (unless I was explaining "a martial art, you know, like Karate, Aikido, Judo but mainly kicking" if they looked blank at "martial art")

I tend to call it Korean Karate just to placate people quickly, most people who ask me don't have an interest but if they express an interest then i'll go into more detail. Plus with the ITF changing quite a lot in the last couple of years, it's getting harder to describe it as a predominantly kicking art, there's 100% more emphasis on using the hands now than when i first started.

I think a lot of people are not getting your British sense of humour on this one mate ;-)

Obviously! My point still stands though, it seems that by the way the Yanks are talking that the majority of Dojangs are belt factories over there, where as my experience over here is that they are a tiny minority, and they seem to centre more around Kickboxing, though that could be seen as a massive generalisation and in no way is meant to diminish the art of kickboxing. The bigger problem over here is the amount of MMA schools where anyone can take a couple of lessons and come out saying that they're an MMA Fighter, which can be hugely misleading.

 

[andyjeffries]

No I live in Northamptonshire, but i personally have never met a WTF/KKW practitioner in the UK

Master Kevin Hornsey (ex-Chairman of the BTCB) is in Northampton. Then again I very rarely meet other Taekwondoin by chance out and about (there is one story I have about a faker though). When I go to Taekwondo events they're WTF/KKW ones so I don't see any/many ITFers there. So I can see where you're coming from, but I know you guys exist ;-P

when i first started learning TKD i honestly thought (albeit very naively) that the style had never made it over here. Since having posted my original comment, i've spoken to a few of the more senior grades at my class and they agree with you that the WTF is getting bigger, faster in the UK now.

The funny thing is I think it's slowing down in growth or declining ;-) Our club size is a lot smaller than it used to be...

The TAGB really don't seem to have that strong a presence around this area so much, there are A LOT more independent clubs, and the UKTA are almost non-existent around here now when previously every other club was UKTA.

Actually, now you say it - I always have in mind that the TAGB is the biggest player and the gorilla in the room when it comes to marketing themselves, but actually they seem to have been a bit quiet in recent years...

The bigger problem over here is the amount of MMA schools where anyone can take a couple of lessons and come out saying that they're an MMA Fighter, which can be hugely misleading.

Amen brother! There's a Tang Soo Do club near us that has learnt a few weapons and now advertises themselves as a "Mixed Martial Art". They'd get their asses pounded out by any normal MMA fighter. Disgusting.

 

[Tez3]

Master Kevin Hornsey (ex-Chairman of the BTCB) is in Northampton. Then again I very rarely meet other Taekwondoin by chance out and about (there is one story I have about a faker though). When I go to Taekwondo events they're WTF/KKW ones so I don't see any/many ITFers there. So I can see where you're coming from, but I know you guys exist ;-P



The funny thing is I think it's slowing down in growth or declining ;-) Our club size is a lot smaller than it used to be...

The TAGB really don't seem to have that strong a presence around this area so much, there are A LOT more independent clubs, and the UKTA are almost non-existent around here now when previously every other club was UKTA.

Actually, now you say it - I always have in mind that the TAGB is the biggest player and the gorilla in the room when it comes to marketing themselves, but actually they seem to have been a bit quiet in recent years...



Amen brother! There's a Tang Soo Do club near us that has learnt a few weapons and now advertises themselves as a "Mixed Martial Art". They'd get their asses pounded out by any normal MMA fighter. Disgusting.

I can arrange that if you wish! :ultracool

 

[andyjeffries]

I can arrange that if you wish! :ultracool

If you can get them in the ring I'm sure I can arrange a bunch of people to pay to watch it :-D

 

[Archtkd]

Obviously! My point still stands though, it seems that by the way the Yanks are talking that the majority of Dojangs are belt factories over there, where as my experience over here is that they are a tiny minority, and they seem to centre more around Kickboxing, though that could be seen as a massive generalisation and in no way is meant to diminish the art of kickboxing. The bigger problem over here is the amount of MMA schools where anyone can take a couple of lessons and come out saying that they're an MMA Fighter, which can be hugely misleading.

And you know this how? Hard stats, research, study? So you think the Yanks you speak of represent the bulk of Taekwondo dojang owners in the United States. I am assuming you are talking of the few people who post stuff about Taekwondo on MT, the majority of who we can't even ascertain own their own dojangs or teach Taekwondo.