I wish World Taekwondo didn't allow knockout kicks

Tez3

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Who ever said there wasn't? I said there is no 1:1 relationship that a person will get knocked out or brain damage from WT/TKD sparring, as the OP infers.
Plus, some of your list makes my argument. They are not all related to WT/TKD. You could make a list like that for any contact sport.
You know that sentence doesn't make sense? 1:1 relationship?
 

tkdroamer

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You know that sentence doesn't make sense? 1:1 relationship?
I will try to rephrase then. It is not a 100% certainty that a person will get knocked out, brain damage, or even hurt in every WT/TKD match.
That would be a 1:1 relationship.
 

Tez3

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I will try to rephrase then. It is not a 100% certainty that a person will get knocked out, brain damage, or even hurt in every WT/TKD match.
That would be a 1:1 relationship.
Considering even a small hit to the head causes bruising to the brain, I'd say you were incorrect. You see, this is the scary thing, small hits do damage, accumulated small hits cause brain damage. Everyone is looking at the big hits, the KO which are obvious you do concussion checks etc but those small bits you get in soaring, competing etc are the ones to watch as well. You simply don't want too many of them.
 

tkdroamer

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Because I would like to compete without that risk. As I was able to before I got my black belt. That option is no longer available. I would either have to change organizations, or I would have to sandbag (pretend to be a blue belt so I could compete with their rules).

It would be like if I joined an adult flag football league, but after 3 years I wasn't allowed to play anymore and had to move into a tackle league. Yes, there are risks of injury in flag football, but there's a lot less contact.

You can't train yourself out of a KO.

Plenty of sports, including the aforementioned football, and including MMA, have changed rules for player safety. A lot of techniques have been banned from UFC, for example.

If a win condition is KO, then at some point you're likely to get KO'd. At the very least, it's significantly more likely than it was before.

You're treating risk like this binary thing. It is so much more complex than that. There are many factors that determine the likelihood and effect of a risk. Athletics carry risk of concussion. That risk can be increased or decreased by rules that favor or ignore player safety. Risk itself can be ignored, accepted, avoided, mitigated, or a number of things.

I don't know why I'm stuck trying to explain to you that if you go into a competition where a KO is a win, that you're more likely to be KO'd. It would be like trying to explain why you're more likely to drown while swimming than riding a bike.
You have come full circle with answering your own question in the original post. Like you, I do not know why me or anyone else has to answer a question you clearly know the answer to.
What is the intended purpose of the exercises, practice and repetitive task done from white to black belt? To improve as a martial artist, whatever that means in a person's given style. For most, not all, there is a spirit of competition. Competition with themselves and with others. While some try to blur the line, there is a clear delineation between traditional and sport martial arts.
In EVERY sport I can think of, there is a defined set of rules to be followed when it comes to organized competition. Let's use flag football as an example since it has already been batted around. I personally know people who have had horrific injuries from flag football, that occurred within the rules. Stuff just happens in a competitive arena sometimes. Risk is a part of life.
In some sports like TKD, there are levels of competition. There are 'friendly's' where the rules are less aggressive and more loosely defined up the elite Gran Prix's and Nationals. I am sure you already know all of this.
Lamenting about a level of competition you do not want to compete in makes zero sense. Find a friendly to compete in, even if it is not a strictly TKD tournament to satisfy you competitive needs.
Trying to change the WT rules when you are so far removed from the sport so that you can play is strange at best. Have you even been to at WT tournament? I would say the knockouts you see on Youtube consist of maybe the top 5% in the world. Like the flag football analogy, you could walk into a kick at a friendly and get knocked out. The likelihood would be about the same as it is for a WT match.
I always encourage my competitors to know and research their competition when possible. You should do the same. If you feel your training or skills are not up to their level, then by all means you should not compete, Unless you want to test yourself.
 

tkdroamer

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Considering even a small hit to the head causes bruising to the brain, I'd say you were incorrect. You see, this is the scary thing, small hits do damage, accumulated small hits cause brain damage. Everyone is looking at the big hits, the KO which are obvious you do concussion checks etc but those small bits you get in soaring, competing etc are the ones to watch as well. You simply don't want too many of them.
Fair enough. Go live in a bubble if you want to.
 

Tez3

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Fair enough. Go live in a bubble if you want to.
Do you know how to risk assess? Taking time to understand the risks involved before deciding to do something is common sense not living in a bubble. Ignoring all medical and scientific research because of some macho need to fight is plain stupid.
 

tkdroamer

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Do you know how to risk assess? Taking time to understand the risks involved before deciding to do something is common sense not living in a bubble. Ignoring all medical and scientific research because of some macho need to fight is plain stupid.
Oh my.
Yes, I have to risk assess in my line of work. Parts of an assessment are rather obvious, some are innocuous and hard to see, and sometimes risks are unknown no matter how much assessment is made.
As far as the post, the information was already there to make an intelligent assessment. Yet I have not seen one yet. Instead, everyone wants to live in a powder puff league and modify the rules of something they have nothing to do with. Like I have said over and over, that is fine and certainly a personal choice. Just like choosing to compete in higher levels of competition.
You are trying to turn this into a macho vs. soft debate and it is not that at all. It is simply a matter of personal choice. Are you trying to take that freedom away?
 

Tez3

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Oh my.
Yes, I have to risk assess in my line of work. Parts of an assessment are rather obvious, some are innocuous and hard to see, and sometimes risks are unknown no matter how much assessment is made.
As far as the post, the information was already there to make an intelligent assessment. Yet I have not seen one yet. Instead, everyone wants to live in a powder puff league and modify the rules of something they have nothing to do with. Like I have said over and over, that is fine and certainly a personal choice. Just like choosing to compete in higher levels of competition.
You are trying to turn this into a macho vs. soft debate and it is not that at all. It is simply a matter of personal choice. Are you trying to take that freedom away?
Yeah I want everyone doing no risk soft yoga in a padded room while wearing Red Man suits but I'm just kinky.

If it's a choice why are you deriding someone for choosing not to compete with headshots and making comments about living in bubbles?
 
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You have come full circle with answering your own question in the original post. Like you, I do not know why me or anyone else has to answer a question you clearly know the answer to.
I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I've been making the same argument since I started. It's a very small circle, I guess.
What is the intended purpose of the exercises, practice and repetitive task done from white to black belt? To improve as a martial artist, whatever that means in a person's given style. For most, not all, there is a spirit of competition. Competition with themselves and with others. While some try to blur the line, there is a clear delineation between traditional and sport martial arts.
Injuries happen at every level of competition. If I get better, I face better opponents. And, as has been stated before, you cannot train your brain to not get concussed. In fact, the more hits you take to the brain, the worse future concussions will get. Your advice shows a severe lack of understanding of how to protect your brain health.
In EVERY sport I can think of, there is a defined set of rules to be followed when it comes to organized competition. Let's use flag football as an example since it has already been batted around. I personally know people who have had horrific injuries from flag football, that occurred within the rules. Stuff just happens in a competitive arena sometimes. Risk is a part of life.
So because risk exists, we shouldn't ever try to mitigate or avoid it? Is there a reason you're not competing in pistol duels? I mean, you could die from a million different things, why not get into a gun fight every day?
In some sports like TKD, there are levels of competition. There are 'friendly's' where the rules are less aggressive and more loosely defined up the elite Gran Prix's and Nationals. I am sure you already know all of this.
Yes, in fact that's the point of my post. That the higher your rank, the less friendly the rules are.
Lamenting about a level of competition you do not want to compete in makes zero sense. Find a friendly to compete in, even if it is not a strictly TKD tournament to satisfy you competitive needs.
I'm a 3rd Dan black belt. The only way for me to lower that in the organization I'm a part of is to sandbag by signing up as a lower rank. This is cheating.
Trying to change the WT rules when you are so far removed from the sport so that you can play is strange at best. Have you even been to at WT tournament? I would say the knockouts you see on Youtube consist of maybe the top 5% in the world. Like the flag football analogy, you could walk into a kick at a friendly and get knocked out. The likelihood would be about the same as it is for a WT match.
I don't even understand this. "So far removed from the sport"? All of my competitive experience as a fighter and as a coach is in World Taekwondo rules. Unless you mean that I'm not in the Olympics? I don't even know what point you're trying to make.
I have to risk assess in my line of work.
I find this very hard to believe, considering how poor your understanding of risk has been in this thread. Your attitude is that risk exists, so just deal with it. There is no nuance, no ability to evaluate risk levels.
 
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As far as the post, the information was already there to make an intelligent assessment. Yet I have not seen one yet. Instead, everyone wants to live in a powder puff league and modify the rules of something they have nothing to do with. Like I have said over and over, that is fine and certainly a personal choice. Just like choosing to compete in higher levels of competition.
I am a member of World Taekwondo. I am ranked by Kukkiwon and have participated and coached in World Takewondo tournaments. What more do I need to be in order to be part of the organization, according you to?
 

tkdroamer

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I am a member of World Taekwondo. I am ranked by Kukkiwon and have participated and coached in World Takewondo tournaments. What more do I need to be in order to be part of the organization, according you to?
Be a willing, compliant participant. Yes, this comes with a little risk.
Kukkiwon and WT are very much joined at the hip. But they are two very different entities. In a nutshell, one is a sport, the other is the martial art/governing body. Your KKW association has very little to do with the competition side of things. Are you a certified coach?
Millions of people can say the same as you but an incredibly low percentage of them compete in the men's adult weight classes in upper-level events.
If you want to be involved in competition without competing (we all get there at some point) look in to KKW/WT coaching/refereeing and Master classes. Coach kids and teens and learn to referee rings at the B level or higher and get into upper-level tournaments. You can also look into AAU events.

These are not my rules. They are just the reality.
 
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tkdroamer

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I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I've been making the same argument since I started. It's a very small circle, I guess.

Injuries happen at every level of competition. If I get better, I face better opponents. And, as has been stated before, you cannot train your brain to not get concussed. In fact, the more hits you take to the brain, the worse future concussions will get. Your advice shows a severe lack of understanding of how to protect your brain health.

So because risk exists, we shouldn't ever try to mitigate or avoid it? Is there a reason you're not competing in pistol duels? I mean, you could die from a million different things, why not get into a gun fight every day?

Yes, in fact that's the point of my post. That the higher your rank, the less friendly the rules are.

I'm a 3rd Dan black belt. The only way for me to lower that in the organization I'm a part of is to sandbag by signing up as a lower rank. This is cheating.

I don't even understand this. "So far removed from the sport"? All of my competitive experience as a fighter and as a coach is in World Taekwondo rules. Unless you mean that I'm not in the Olympics? I don't even know what point you're trying to make.

I find this very hard to believe, considering how poor your understanding of risk has been in this thread. Your attitude is that risk exists, so just deal with it. There is no nuance, no ability to evaluate risk levels.
I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I've been making the same argument since I started. It's a very small circle, I guess.
I am saying you knew the answer before you asked the question.
So because risk exists, we shouldn't ever try to mitigate or avoid it? Is there a reason you're not competing in pistol duels? I mean, you could die from a million different things, why not get into a gun fight every day?
It is because risks exist that competitors train to be the best. At least part of the reason. I do not pistol compete in duals because the risk is too great for me. Nor do I lament the fact that the rules in pistol duals are too great for me.
Yes, in fact that's the point of my post. That the higher your rank, the less friendly the rules are.
There are frendlies for every color of rank.
I'm a 3rd Dan black belt. The only way for me to lower that in the organization I'm a part of is to sandbag by signing up as a lower rank. This is cheating.
WT black belt competition is based on weight not Dan level. Other than an assumption that your level of experience should be greater at 3rd Dan, everything else is leveled by weight.
I don't even understand this. "So far removed from the sport"? All of my competitive experience as a fighter and as a coach is in World Taekwondo rules. Unless you mean that I'm not in the Olympics? I don't even know what point you're trying to make.
"So far removed" as in you have not competed in upper-level events yet. You are not a certified instructor, coach, or referee. Yet. There is a process to follow like it or not, but you can get there.
No, you do not have to be any of those things to compete but there are still rules and a process to follow.
 
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If you want to be involved in competition without competing
That is not what I want at all. But it's par for the course for you in the entire thread.

I'm not going to waste my time anymore, when I might as well be speaking a different language with how much you understand in this thread.
 

tkdroamer

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That is not what I want at all. But it's par for the course for you in the entire thread.

I'm not going to waste my time anymore, when I might as well be speaking a different language with how much you understand in this thread.
You want to compete in a rule set where you do not like the rules. What else is there to understand? I was just trying to give you some options.
I will gladly tap out of the conversation.
 
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You want to compete in a rule set where you do not like the rules. What else is there to understand? I was just trying to give you some options.
I will gladly tap out of the conversation.
I want to compete in a ruleset where I do not like the rules. How is that not competing, as you suggested earlier?

I liked the rules I was competing in, which were also a part of this organization.

If the rule was that after 3rd degree, fights could go to the death, would that be acceptable? I mean, just train better so you don't get killed, right? You run the risk of dying every day, so it's not a big deal, right?
 

Tez3

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Millions of people can say the same as you but an incredibly low percentage of them compete in the men's adult weight classes in upper-level events.
I imagine at least half of that million don't compete in that class because they aren't men.
 

J. Pickard

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I may be misremembering but I though a recent rule change made kicking with "intent to cause harm", essentially full contact, illegal in WT? They have had so many rule changes in the past few years it's hard to keep track.
 
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I may be misremembering but I though a recent rule change made kicking with "intent to cause harm", essentially full contact, illegal in WT? They have had so many rule changes in the past few years it's hard to keep track.
I'm looking at the current competition rules published by WT. The rules on techniques are about where you can kick and trying to stop gaming of the system (i.e. the foot fencing we've seen in years past), and the only rules on conduct are about behavior instead of intent to harm.

These rules from USA TKD are a little out of date (2020), but defines Junior Competitions into No Head Contact and Light Head Contact. In those brackets, excessive force aimed at the head (even if it doesn't connect) is a penalty. A KO in those competitions will result in a DQ instead of a win.

I think the more local the tournament gets, the more they are subject to changes with local opinions. It's been my experience that adult black belts can go for KOs, adult advanced and kid black belts can go for light contact, and low-rank adults and kid color belts can't do headshots.
 

tkdroamer

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I'm looking at the current competition rules published by WT. The rules on techniques are about where you can kick and trying to stop gaming of the system (i.e. the foot fencing we've seen in years past), and the only rules on conduct are about behavior instead of intent to harm.

These rules from USA TKD are a little out of date (2020), but defines Junior Competitions into No Head Contact and Light Head Contact. In those brackets, excessive force aimed at the head (even if it doesn't connect) is a penalty. A KO in those competitions will result in a DQ instead of a win.

I think the more local the tournament gets, the more they are subject to changes with local opinions. It's been my experience that adult black belts can go for KOs, adult advanced and kid black belts can go for light contact, and low-rank adults and kid color belts can't do headshots.
Articles 17 & 18 thoroughly covers the procedures for a knock down.

The potential for injury is integral to competing at any level in any sport. Yes, the risks go up at the over 17 age group because the level of competition goes up. Significantly.
 
OP
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Articles 17 & 18 thoroughly covers the procedures for a knock down.
This is checkmark risk assessment at it's finest. You know there's a risk, and you just put in a CYA clause so you don't get sued or fined.

The fact you have a procedure to deal with an event doesn't mean you're protected from it. It's like insurance. My insurance company doesn't do anything to prevent my car from crashing. I still have to drive my car safely if I don't want to crash. My insurance company is just there so that if I do get into an accident, I don't also go into bankruptcy.
The potential for injury is integral to competing at any level in any sport. Yes, the risks go up at the over 17 age group because the level of competition goes up. Significantly.
The risks go up because the allowed contact goes up. If I were to have an airsoft league that starts using metal BB guns when you hit 5 years experience, which would you say is the reason the league is more dangerous? Is it because my opponents have 5 years of experience, or because we upgraded from plastic to metal BBs?
 

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