How much can one Master?

[jasonbrinn]

Good day,

I love MA. I love training MA for fun, friendship and fitness. I also study mostly for self defense. I have always thought that an ultimate goal is to master what one studies. If this is true to you as well, how many concepts/techniques do you think one could master realistically?


Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.


Jason Brinn

 

[clfsean]

I almost had shoe lace tying done, but then I switched to flip flops & no lace loafers.

Otherwise ... mastery indicates to me a level of completeness. There's no such critter.

First time that thought pops into your head (general not directed) as a serious, concrete state of being, go check your ego to see if the check it's trying to cash out weighs the bank that your *** carries.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "master" and who the "one" is.

A professional fighter who trains 40 hours a week is going to master a lot more than I will with my 6 hours per week on average.

I'm never quite sure of what people mean by "master".

If you mean "to learn all there is to know about a technique or concept and perform it as well as is physically possible", then no one ever really masters anything.

If you mean "to understand and be able to perform a technique at a high level", then the problem is that different people will have different views on what qualifies as a sufficiently high level of performance.

If you mean "to have internalized a technique or concept well enough to use it automatically with good form under stress conditions (such as a fight or high-level competition)" then we at least have a somewhat objective definition of the concept to work with, although there are still problems. (I could easily and automatically pull off a number of techniques in a fight with Bob Average down the street. I could pull off approximately zero techniques of any sort in a fight with Anderson Silva.)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Call yourself a master and all learning stops

 

[Steve]

Good day,

I love MA. I love training MA for fun, friendship and fitness. I also study mostly for self defense. I have always thought that an ultimate goal is to master what one studies. If this is true to you as well, how many concepts/techniques do you think one could master realistically?


Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.


Jason Brinn

First, there are degrees of mastery. But, I tend to agree with the idea that it takes about 1000 hours of practice to develop expertise in most things. So, in BJJ, a person who trains 5 days per week for 2 hours each day will reach mastery faster than a guy who trains 3 days per week for 2 hours per day. Quality of training is also important. In other words, the guy who's fit and athletic will be focusing on BJJ while someone who isn't fit or athletic might spend the first 4 months of training focusing on fitness and not on BJJ.

I'm also a fan of Bloom's Taxonomy of learning. So, as you commit your 1000 hours of study to developing expertise, you will move through six distinct stages.

Knowledge - The instructor tells me what something is. I can then tell someone else what my instructor said. That's knowledge.

Comprehension - Think keyboard warrior. I have an intellectual understanding, but I don't yet have the practical understanding. I can describe or explain, but I'm not necessarily able to "do".

Application - I can now apply techniques. I can do a keylock. I can apply an armbar. I can sweep my opponent. I can also demonstrate application to beginners. This is where 1st Dan black belt sits for most martial arts and purple belt is for BJJ.

Analysis - I am now chaining techniques together and seeing larger patterns of behavior. I am using strategy and focusing on higher concepts. I'm experimenting with technique and questioning the assumptions I've been taught, and I can at this point drill into the exceptions to rules. I'd say this is where 2nd or maybe 3rd Dan black belt sits with most martial arts, and about where a high level brown belt or possibly a new black belt is for BJJ.

Synthesis - Much of what I'm doing is second nature at this point. I am innovating and creating, and teaching others, sharing my expertise.

Evaluation - This is the point where someone has complete mastery, both over the techniques and concepts, but also the tacit understanding that only comes with experience. This is where someone can legitimately begin assessing strengths and weaknesses of a system and begin making fundamental improvements. Not many people get here. In BJJ, we're talking about people like De La Riva, Saulo Ribiero, and the like.

So, to answer your question... it depends.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good day,

I love MA. I love training MA for fun, friendship and fitness. I also study mostly for self defense. I have always thought that an ultimate goal is to master what one studies. If this is true to you as well, how many concepts/techniques do you think one could master realistically?


Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.


Jason Brinn

a lot less than you think.

 

[jasonbrinn]

According to Webster, Master = an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill

Let's not get into a debate about definitions though. Honestly, one would need a certain level of skill to utilize a skill in a defense situation. My guess is that most training MAs would like to think they are training towards that goal. If this is a goal, how many "skills" could one get proficient enough to use in a real life self defense scenario?

 

[Instructor]

I've never mastered anything and probably never will.

 

[rickster]

I've never mastered anything and probably never will.

Great... But a somewhat "dirty' idea came to mind

 

[Instructor]

Great... But a somewhat "dirty' idea came to mind

Guttermind! LOL.

 

[Xue Sheng]

According to Webster, Master = an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill

Let's not get into a debate about definitions though. Honestly, one would need a certain level of skill to utilize a skill in a defense situation. My guess is that most training MAs would like to think they are training towards that goal. If this is a goal, how many "skills" could one get proficient enough to use in a real life self defense scenario?

Also according to the web master means
this

and this

 

[Gentle Fist]

depends on how big his/her cup is...

 

[Steve]

Also according to the web master means
this

I loved this show when I was a kid.

 

[K-man]

I know a number of martial artists that consider themselves 'masters'. One of them is. I know a lot of extremely proficient martial artists. None of them claim 'mastery'. Of the second group there are three that I could recognise as a 'master'. To ''master' more than one system, from what I have seen, is just not possible. To read the posts of two of the recent posters on this forum, well I can just roll my eyes in disbelief. There is a chasm between their ego and their apparent ability.

When I questioned one of the guys who claims to be a master about something that would add to his understanding he said something along the lines of, "I have all that I consider I need now!" Or, in other words, "my cup is full".

One might say that someone who wins, as an example, the world MMA title three years running could be a master. I would just say that that person is a very competent fighter. Being a 'master', to me, implies the greatest level of understanding of their system. Much more that knowing a few great techniques in the ring.

I reckon I have a good understanding of what I practise, but I don't have to go far to find someone that can show me something I can improve upon. There is no possible way that I could ever get to the level that I consider a 'master' in the original sense of the word.

Then, I suppose the question becomes, can you master something without becoming a master? On the micro level, possibly. I reckon I do a pretty mean push up. :asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

Ok I'm going to take a different point of view here.

First off I believe you can master a skill and yet still have room to learn all sorts of new things. Say target shooting, I knew a guy who could shoot incredible distances over and over again so much so he was the best in the state, he could repeat the task of hitting the target many times over with little or no variances. I believe that is mastery. Or the Akijujitsu instructor/master that had such control over his body that what looked like a shrug of the shoulders ends up off balancing a person holding onto his wrist and causing him to fall. Or perhaps the GM who while demoing and talking with the seminar participants has such a feel and control of his body and knowledge of his partners body that can seemingly at will set them up and lock them down while doing full speed flow drills (or freestyle tapi tapi drills).

Seeing high level mastery of anything is like looking at the mountain peaks in the far off distance, sometimes we get to see the peaks other times it is shrouded but they are there, make no mistake about it. I have seen very high level MA instructors and frankly I would consider some of them masters (they are the mountain peaks), others I have also seen are very good (they are like foothills), sometimes I have met people that are more like speed bumps who believe they are the mountain peaks (like Mount Everest).

This doesn't mean they can't learn anything else, or that they won't ever get more insight, just that they have a very high level of competence at what they do, such a high level that they are like a mountain when viewed next to a foothill (someone of mediocre to good skill). Often times these individuals are as down to earth as the rest of us speed bumps, and it is their students or their handlers who put them up on the high pedestals and insist that they stay there.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

 

[Marcy Shoberg]

IMPACT self defense (and I believe Model Mugging and other modern self-defense only classes as well) feel that five is about right:
palm to the head, knee to the groin, rear elbow to the had, either a slap/hammerfist/grab-pull to the groin and a side kick from the ground.
I'd recommend someone like you check out Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling by Peyton Quinn. It explains a lot about the whole issue of making techniques that work well in training applicable to actual self-defense.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

Hi Jason,

Hmm, I'd say that looking at it in terms of "number of techniques" is a mistake in and of itself. I'd also state that this new phrasing has nothing at all to do with "mastering" anything, nor anything to do with your actual title thread of "HOW MUCH can one master?", which implies (well, overtly states, really) a question of the upper limit of someones ability to master disparate disciplines. So I'm not sure how people were supposed to give an answer to this question from your initial title and OP. So much for a "simple question"!

In terms of your newly phrased one, in order to competently defend yourself, I honestly wouldn't put a number to it. So I'd say zero. How many tactics, principles, approaches? The fewer the better, really. Thinking in terms of numbers is missing the reality, in many ways. But to give an idea, in our school, there is probably about 18 months of material (with the topic/focus changing each month) that I would consider "core" to personal self defence. That would give you pretty much everything you'd need... but it's not really "18" approaches, as many of them dove-tail into each other, to the point where, in some cases, you are literally just repeating methods from other months in a slightly different context. Then, when it comes to "mastering", at least to the level of competent proficiency, that's about the amount of training, and the way they're trained. Trying to put numbers on it really just doesn't work.

IMPACT self defense (and I believe Model Mugging and other modern self-defense only classes as well) feel that five is about right:
palm to the head, knee to the groin, rear elbow to the had, either a slap/hammerfist/grab-pull to the groin and a side kick from the ground.
I'd recommend someone like you check out Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling by Peyton Quinn. It explains a lot about the whole issue of making techniques that work well in training applicable to actual self-defense.

Hmm, not sure that I'd necessarily agree with that there... The thing to remember with IMPACT is that they have a very particular emphasis and approach, as well as catering to a very particular demographic. As a result, such a list isn't really the best in all situations... and, understanding their demographic and approach, they're missing what I would consider an essential physical skill in that list, as everything that you've put requires at least some modicum of distance, or separation between the defender and attacker. I mean, a rear elbow to the head? That's a bit limiting when it comes to the use of elbows, isn't it? What if the attacker isn't behind you, can you not use an elbow to the front?

In essence, I'd say you should have a small list of highly adaptable methods/techniques that can be applied in as many situations as possible. Not too different to the Judo concept of Tokui Waza, really.

With regards to the book, yeah, it's a good one. Not sure you've gotten the point, there, though. The principle that Peyton talks about is the emphasis of principles over techniques. That's pretty standard in self defence classes.

 

[Jenna]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

Leaving aside the diversity of variables.. I think for me I am happy holding 25-30 techniques at ready point..

I think it is different for all people though me I suggest fewer tech and greater adaptability within techs and via combination rather than more tech that each require exact right positioning.. To me fewer is quicker..

I also think motivation is key in this question.. Have proper motivation then proficiency is gained faster therefore more techniques can be acquired..

Last I think it depend also on the MA.. some are more compact and concentrated in their makeup whereas I think others have more discrete techniques that do not always overlap so much..

Wishes

 

[Mark Lynn]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

Jason

I thought the original question was pretty simple but the answers are or can be complex. According to Webster's Dictionary the term Master means as a noun 3) one highly skilled 4) one in authority and as a verb 1) subdue 2) to become proficient in

Using those descriptions I believe a person can master several techniques or several skills, concepts etc. etc. over the course of their martial arts study. The longer one studies the deeper the knowledge and probably the skill of the martial artist. Even though physical skill deteriorates maybe over time, mastery gained in other areas while learning the physical also can increase to compensate for the deterioration of the physical.

For instance I once saw a kendoka in his 70s/80s wipe the floor with 4th and 5th dan kendoka who were in their prime ages of their 40's. I have a great picture of this master cutting a friend of mine as he came in for an overhead cut and the older master just leans out of the way enough for his (my firends) shinai to have missed him while his scores on my friends neck. However my friend was in the middle of his cut as he was getting scored upon (in real life having his head cut off) by the old master. It wasn't that my friend was slower, per say it was that the master read him and knew what he was going to do as my friend started (or maybe even thought of the technique) and just reacted. No thought WHACK he was there.

I have another photo of the old master as he had taken off his kendo gear and was being attended by the other senior kendoka, and you can really see the old masters age, he looked like a summer breeze would knock him over. Like I said the day before this old master wiped the floor with these 4th and 5th dans.

Listening to the Akijujitsu master explain how to do certain techniques, like drawing a sword, using a jo to throw or off balance someone was like looking at the distant mountain top. I knew to get there, where he was, I had to give everything up and learn his method totally emptying my cup (so to speak), I also knew that wasn't going to happen and it was unrealistic goal or dream on my part. But that didn't take away from his abilities. The shear act of him explaining what muscles he relaxed (in slow motion) to cause this certain reaction from his opponent who grabbed his hands to cause this guy to lean a certain way so the master could make the guy fall all in slow motion and then do it for real in "Speed Motion!" (for any Kombatan players out there who might read this) in a blink of the eye is mastery. But again think of the skills and concepts needed to learn and master to do this one defense. I can't even begin to count because I don't practice that art nor do I understand it.

GM Remy had the sensitivity (the feel) to know when a person checked his hand in this way (say either a grab, a lite check, or a pass) he could counter doing this or doing that, or locking him this way etc. etc. always being a head of the person several steps. Once again who can count how many skills and concepts or techniques could he have executed just by the way someone touched his hand (and where they touched his hand, and with which hand they touched or checked with, how hard the checked etc. etc.). Again the variables are endless.

In all three of these examples these masters could do their techniques in real time and they were human just like everyone else. If they can do it so can we, it is just are we going to take the time to do it? They devoted their lives to their respected arts and they were masters at them.