Where To Draw the Line

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

Ever try fighting someone whose body feels as though it's entirely composed of a non-newtonian fluid?

Never had that experience. That's why I'm interested to hear your experience in more detail.

What attack did you do?

- A punch to the face,
- A kick to the groin?
- A sweep to the leg?
- A squeeze to the body?
- ...

No matter what you try, you either get crunched from your own power or smothered by your own softness

This I had some experience myself. One guy attacked me from behind in a parking lot. He squeezed my body so hard and broke his own ribs.

 

[Fungus104 2]

While I really think that people are different and that if you go into a random MA school, there ARE alot of people that really are there for some of the "side effects" - I tend to agree with you on the core of hte "martial" stuff. This diversity of motivation and presumed "core motivations" I see also in science. Side effects are like, "get well paid job", but the presumes "core" or more like "solving and understanding the mysteries of nature". I know from experience that a minority are in it for the latter core reasons.

So, there must be some other over-riding motivation to do TMA.
...
More than likely it's more primal - the confidence that one can deal with a physical attack

I am naturally pretty strong (for beeing untrained that is), and i never felt i couldnt defend myself, so that is not really the main reason for me. I never felt insecure per see. But I like to be in control, and understnad things in depth (Often in extreme depth by common standards, here I see myself as an outlier). This is an intellectucal challenge for me, and once you gained this understanding of control in some field, it is an internal satisfaction.

So the whole logic, strategy of martial combat, and the neuromuscular control it requires to actually be performed is intriguing and challenging. And to me there is some desire to master this to the extent that is allow by my own limitations. And int particular ot understand how the "optimal system" necessarily is constrained by your actual limitations and strength. Its about skill, execution but also mental strenght and conditioning. To be in complete control and master your own body in a situation of physical attack.

This is what i think is the heart of the matter for me. That has absolutely no affiliation to any style. The reason I enjoy high contact in my style is because i feel that the level of contact you get, will affect the ecological validity of your learnings. The tradeoff is of course that you dont want to actually hurt yourself for life just to enjoy this. This is why non-armed combat, with some rasonable rules is a good level of feedback for me.

For me side effects are I get some physical exercise I would NEVER get otherwise. This is good, but not anywhere near what drives me.

I would refuse to spend say the same time on things like fotball or running! It is totally void of mental challenge and meaning. Needles to ask but can anyeone come up with a good reason why it is meaningful to train how to kick a ball around a grass rectangle trying to score? I'm baffled everday why this stuff is still on TV almost every day.

 

[Fungus104 2]

Despite the title, the underlaying question is "What's the purpose of doing TMA?"

A lot of TMA is guilty of this, teaching techniques without realistic application and spending time on concepts that do not advance its core purpose of self-defense. The question may be where do we draw the line?

Wanted to add that I enjoy your threads with deeper reflections and setting the perspectives as seen also in other threads

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

Wanted to add that I enjoy your threads with deeper reflections and setting the perspectives as seen also in other threads

Indeed I sometimes get confused between the two of you

 

[Badhabits]

I’m not a big fan of “should” about martial arts. People like what they like, and that’s fine. I liked the challenge of working on aiki and nuance. That kept me training. I could have learned to fight faster - and probably better - if I put the same time into something more direct, but I wouldn’t have put the same time into it.

I can get on board with this. Its mainly been all the subtle stuff and focus on building precision bodily control that's kept me in TMA's vs other arts. Its probably the same for a lot of people.
Heck, the main reason we put our granddaughter in the local karate school wasn't self defense or discipline or the usual reasons. She comes from a long line of extremely uncoordinated people on her mother's side. The child is constantly hurting herself, way more than the other kids her age. Sooooo yeah bodily control lol.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

I mean, I started karate for similar reasons- there was a taster course as part of my duke of Edinburgh's award. I wanted to join the forces at the time, and an army guy who helped out with a lot of our hiking recommend I do more of it to learn body control. The amazing thing happens when you take these young men and women who struggle with discipline, and you place them in that ultra-disciplined environment and they flourish. I can't explain it, but I doubt it would have the same effect if there weren't some ultimate goal to it, so at some point there has to be real martial skill involved.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

I mean, I started karate for similar reasons- there was a taster course as part of my duke of Edinburgh's award. I wanted to join the forces at the time, and an army guy who helped out with a lot of our hiking recommend I do more of it to learn body control. The amazing thing happens when you take these young men and women who struggle with discipline, and you place them in that ultra-disciplined environment and they flourish. I can't explain it, but I doubt it would have the same effect if there weren't some ultimate goal to it, so at some point there has to be real martial skill involved.

Why were you awarded Duke of Edinburgh award?

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

Why were you awarded Duke of Edinburgh award?

It's sort of a scheme. You do a set number of expeditions- hikes, essentially, although there are other options- and do a certain amount of sport and voluntary work (I did environmental work, it's where I learned my love of bashing greenery with agricultural implements) and you're given a series of awards (bronze, silver and gold) for each set of those things completed. If you get to the gold award you get to meet the duke. Sadly, I was only halfway through my silver award before the place that was running the scheme locally decided to stop supporting it and I discovered marijuana.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

I'd just like to mention if it's permitted that the erstwhile Duke prince Phillip, with his propensity for making incredibly funny but very ill advised jokes, is sorely missed at present, with current events being as they are

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

So the whole logic, strategy of martial combat, and the neuromuscular control it requires to actually be performed is intriguing and challenging. And to me there is some desire to master this to the extent that is allow by my own limitations.

Once you dive in beyond the surface TMA offers a whole new world to explore. Few have any idea of the concepts, principles and meanings which underlay the technique when they begin the art. Those who stick with it get more than they bargained for in a good way. And it does make you want to get good at it, I think, to do both the art and yourself justice.

The amazing thing happens when you take these young men and women who struggle with discipline, and you place them in that ultra-disciplined environment and they flourish. I can't explain it, but I doubt it would have the same effect if there weren't some ultimate goal to it, so at some point there has to be real martial skill involved.

Agree. Young humans require and actively seek (in one way or another) some sort of discipline, order and stability. A well-structured TMA school can offer this.

On a personal note, my youth was already rather ordered and stable (perhaps too much so). I was looking outside the box, something to call my own, a personal quest for self-development. TMA, being pretty much unknown at the time, served this purpose well.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

On a personal note, my youth was already rather ordered and stable (perhaps too much so). I was looking outside the box, something to call my own, a personal quest for self-development. TMA, being pretty much unknown at the time, served this purpose well.

That's the other side of it of course, it also becomes a vehicle for expression.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

Honestly, I got into martial arts for two reasons:

1. I BADLY needed to get in some semblance of shape; and

2. I like martial arts. They're cool.

The idea of fighting, whether for competition or self-defence, never entered into it. Even now, sparring or SD work is just a vehicle for learning techniques, which makes for a delightful puzzle to work on and get better at. It's just what I enjoy.

I'll be honest, I empathise with this too. I don't enjoy the idea of physically harming others, and I don't deal well with conflict, but martial arts are cool. The thing is though, if it wasn't for the fact that these arts can be used to defend oneself, wouldn't it lose something?

 

[Badhabits]

Lol well, the science of methodically breaking another human beings body apart is pretty cool.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Indeed I sometimes get confused between the two of you

I'm the old good looking one.

 

[Badhabits]

I keep telling Mrs Badhabits that same thing.

 

[Simfers114 22]

I'll be honest, I empathise with this too. I don't enjoy the idea of physically harming others, and I don't deal well with conflict, but martial arts are cool. The thing is though, if it wasn't for the fact that these arts can be used to defend oneself, wouldn't it lose something?

Thinking as I type here, as I think it's a good point and one I hadn't considered. I think, for me anyway, it's more the idea of learning how my body can move and how other bodies can be made to move, whether through physical manipulation (takedowns, sweeps, redirection) or mental trickery (feints, movement, angles). I think it really is just that intellectual pursuit for me, the idea that I can also use those skills to defend myself if (God forbid) needed is a bonus and appreciated, but it's not the root cause of my enjoyment.

I don't know if this was coherent at all, as it was very much stream of consciousness, but thank you (and to isshinryuronin) for making me think about this. Following that thought to its destination was enlightening.

 

[KenpoMaster8051]

i got into martial arts because i was bully in elementary true high school so i started doing and it feels great to learn Martial arts

i used to workout too but when i started doing Martial arts i stop but i workout at home and in my karate studio that i train with and I cant believe I'm a Black Belt too

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

It's sort of a scheme. You do a set number of expeditions- hikes, essentially, although there are other options- and do a certain amount of sport and voluntary work (I did environmental work, it's where I learned my love of bashing greenery with agricultural implements) and you're given a series of awards (bronze, silver and gold) for each set of those things completed. If you get to the gold award you get to meet the duke. Sadly, I was only halfway through my silver award before the place that was running the scheme locally decided to stop supporting it and I discovered marijuana.

Something like Boy Scouts then.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

Lol well, the science of methodically breaking another human beings body apart is pretty cool.

That’s why I love surgery so much, take it apart and put it back together on a timer.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

Something like Boy Scouts then.

Yes, except the kids are older- between 14 and 25