Where To Draw the Line

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Despite the title, the underlaying question is "What's the purpose of doing TMA?" Many would say it's great exercise. True, but one can lift weights, do push-ups and run to stay in shape. The options are endless and specifically designed to reach that goal. Some would say to strengthen their spirit but there are many options for this, too: Meditation, philosophy, religion, etc. All these can develop one's world view and spiritual attitude more directly than MA. So, there must be some other over-riding motivation to do TMA.

Some would say to gain confidence. With public speaking? Dating? Job performance? More than likely it's more primal - the confidence that one can deal with a physical attack Now we are getting closer and perhaps more honest as to why people really get into MA. They want to feel safe and be able to protect their family.

Most of us have a lingering doubt or fear of battle. I believe this is much more common than one may think as few would openly admit it. Our ego tries to hide it, even from ourselves. This core lack or presence of such confidence I think provides a backdrop for one's life in general. It's a trait that can make us meek or feel able to face the world. For some, it prevents them from walking down the street at night or from standing up to a bully. It's not a good feeling. Isn't mitigating this lack of combat confidence the real reason most decide on getting into MA? While TMA does get one in shape and foster a beneficial spirit as by-products of training, isn't the main goal its martial aspects?

The further we stress the side benefits of TMA (including to some extent, sport) the more its core purpose suffers. Much like the public schools stressing social engineering and parenting goals that result in the undeniable loss of their core purpose - teaching reading, writing, math and general knowledge. A lot of TMA is guilty of this, teaching techniques without realistic application and spending time on concepts that do not advance its core purpose of self-defense. The question may be where do we draw the line?

 

[skribs113 134]

People enjoy different things. The vast majority of people who do a specific activity to better themselves also enjoy the activity itself. Some people like to weight train. Some don't. Most people weight training either like it, or see it as a necessity for the specific purpose of building strength. In modern times, strength is a luxury. Outside of a professional athlete, most people don't need it. Even folks with physically demanding jobs will build the strength necessary to do the job by doing the job.

Why do martial arts instead of lifting weights? Because it's fun. It's not any deeper than that.

 

[Simfers114 22]

Honestly, I got into martial arts for two reasons:

1. I BADLY needed to get in some semblance of shape; and

2. I like martial arts. They're cool.

The idea of fighting, whether for competition or self-defence, never entered into it. Even now, sparring or SD work is just a vehicle for learning techniques, which makes for a delightful puzzle to work on and get better at. It's just what I enjoy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

If you can stretch and open your "groin joint", you will have better balance for the rest of your life. There exists no other sport that can give you this.

If you can still do this when you are 80, you should be proud of yourself.

If you can develop a strong defense that none of your opponent's punch can get in, it will give you a lot of confidence.

For example, to protect your center from

- inside out.
- outside in.

There exists no other sport that can give you this kind of ability.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Why do martial arts instead of lifting weights? Because it's fun. It's not any deeper than that.

We can do things like MA just for the fun of it, but do we know something is fun before we try it? Did you know MA would be fun or did you find out after you were in it awhile? If the latter, why did you first get into it?

 

[Flying Crane]

When I first began martial arts, self-defense was front of the reasons why I wanted to do it. Even though I had no issues with bullies, didn’t have a pressing need for such skills. But i figured, ya never know.

So I was always mentally sizing people up, thinking about what I would need to do to take someone down. All the while never acting on those musings and never needing to defend myself.

Eventually I came to realize that such thoughts can become an obsession that fosters paranoia and an unhealthy outlook on life. Gradually, my purposes came to embrace the simple enjoyment of training, engaging in something that wasn’t (at the time) particularly common, and training in some methods that were rare and hard to find. There is purpose in keeping a rare system alive.

Fighting is the least of my concerns.

 

[Simfers114 22]

We can do things like MA just for the fun of it, but do we know something is fun before we try it? Did you know MA would be fun or did you find out after you were in it awhile? If the latter, why did you first get into it?

Heh. Truthfully? Because I'm a child of the 80s and a teen of the 90s who grew up on action movies (the Stallones, the Schwarzeneggers, the Norriseses and to a lesser extent the Van Dammes) and pro wrestling (Chris Benoit was my favourite before he did the unforgiveable, but Ken Shamrock, Bret and Owen Hart Steve Blackman, Dean Malenko and others of the ilk were mesmerizing). The final fight scene in the first Lethal Weapon movie between Mel Gibson and Gary Busey was the coolest thing I'd ever seen for DECADES.

It looked like magic and I wanted to figure out how it worked. It looked like fun.

TV, man. I got into martial ars because of TV. Just celebrated my 28th anniversary across 4 martial arts.

 

[windwalker099114 145]

Despite the title, the underlaying question is "What's the purpose of doing TMA?" Many would say it's great exercise. True, but one can lift weights, do push-ups and run to stay in shape. The options are endless and specifically designed to reach that goal. Some would say to strengthen their spirit but there are many options for this, too: Meditation, philosophy, religion, etc. All these can develop one's world view and spiritual attitude more directly than MA. So, there must be some other over-riding motivation to do TMA.

Some would say to gain confidence. With public speaking? Dating? Job performance? More than likely it's more primal - the confidence that one can deal with a physical attack Now we are getting closer and perhaps more honest as to why people really get into MA. They want to feel safe and be able to protect their family.

Most of us have a lingering doubt or fear of battle. I believe this is much more common than one may think as few would openly admit it. Our ego tries to hide it, even from ourselves. This core lack or presence of such confidence I think provides a backdrop for one's life in general. It's a trait that can make us meek or feel able to face the world. For some, it prevents them from walking down the street at night or from standing up to a bully. It's not a good feeling. Isn't mitigating this lack of combat confidence the real reason most decide on getting into MA? While TMA does get one in shape and foster a beneficial spirit as by-products of training, isn't the main goal its martial aspects?

The further we stress the side benefits of TMA (including to some extent, sport) the more its core purpose suffers. Much like the public schools stressing social engineering and parenting goals that result in the undeniable loss of their core purpose - teaching reading, writing, math and general knowledge. A lot of TMA is guilty of this, teaching techniques without realistic application and spending time on concepts that do not advance its core purpose of self-defense.
The question may be where do we draw the line?

Think the line has already been drawn by history and by the masters of the past — though it shifts as culture and technology advance.

The problem may come when people frame their own practice as the standard for everyone else. Arts that evolved in a different time or under different conditions get judged as “less martial,” when really they reflect the needs of their era.

Look at modern militaries: soldiers live and train apart from the societies they protect, and their martial practice looks nothing like civilian training. The goals are different. But in both cases, the “line” is set by context, not by theory.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

"What's the purpose of doing TMA?"

The deep level understanding of the MA is fun. For example,

1. Your opponent sweeps your leading leg (offense).
2. You bend your knee and let his sweeping leg to pass under your knee (defense).
3. You then kick back your leading leg at his balls under his sweeping leg (counter to defense).

Can you find

- "1, 2, 3" for each and every techniques that you know (bredth knowledge)?
- at least N set of "1,2,3" for each and every techniques that you know (deepth knowledge)?

I believe one day people can learn MA from AI. But someone has to feed that information into AI first.

 

[philwhite43 1]

Heh. Truthfully? Because I'm a child of the 80s and a teen of the 90s who grew up on action movies (the Stallones, the Schwarzeneggers, the Norriseses and to a lesser extent the Van Dammes) and pro wrestling (Chris Benoit was my favourite before he did the unforgiveable, but Ken Shamrock, Bret and Owen Hart Steve Blackman, Dean Malenko and others of the ilk were mesmerizing). The final fight scene in the first Lethal Weapon movie between Mel Gibson and Gary Busey was the coolest thing I'd ever seen for DECADES.

It looked like magic and I wanted to figure out how it worked. It looked like fun.

TV, man. I got into martial ars because of TV. Just celebrated my 28th anniversary across 4 martial arts.

Same here. Got into weight lifting and karate because of dudes kicking butt on TV and the big screen. I rented every MA movie available at hollywood video and all of the UFC ones too. Steve Blackman was awesome to watch too. Growing up with Highlander, Chuck Norris, UFC, the Karate Kid, and TMNT! Good times.

 

[punisher73]

It depends. There are different reasons for training martial arts. A "successful school" is going to be one that 1) Draws like minded people or 2) Offers a blending of reasons that fulfill a need in its students.

"Karate" started as a civilian self-defense system. It then became codified and refined. If someone ONLY wants to learn how to fight in a very short amount of time. Then "martial arts" as a system might not be the answer for them. There are many other things out there. Most people "think" that fighting is what they want to learn, but they stay longer because of other reasons.

 

[Marsha Larts]

We can do things like MA just for the fun of it, but do we know something is fun before we try it? Did you know MA would be fun or did you find out after you were in it awhile? If the latter, why did you first get into it?

Boxed and wrestled competitively from preteen into my twenties. Then I met a taiji guy who could crush me like a bug.

 

[skribs113 134]

We can do things like MA just for the fun of it, but do we know something is fun before we try it? Did you know MA would be fun or did you find out after you were in it awhile? If the latter, why did you first get into it?

If we only did things we already knew were fun, nobody would ever do anything. People do things that look like fun.

I really don't understand the premise of this question.

 

[Hanshi]

I just thought stuff like judo & karate were cool and sometimes (but rarely) saw it used on tv. Then a friend got into karate and I started training with him. As time went on I realized just how many martial arts existed and managed to find and train in many of them. I even got into boxing which I saw as a great addition to the rest of my activities. I also eventually came to the conclusion that due to the fact many arts were missing something, and branching out was my solution.

It did increase my fitness level more than I had anticipated. Being ADHD I had to keep doing "stuff" and training/running certainly took care of that. On the "sport" side I just sorta "dabbled". It was great for the kids and really helped them gain confidence and even win lots of trophies. I don't think just getting into a martial art necessarily prepares one to fight, but it does give one experience of knowing how to kick and punch. Just that little bit is a good thing to know. For most the martial arts is just an "activity" and that's alright too.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

Boxed and wrestled competitively from preteen into my twenties. Then I met a taiji guy who could crush me like a bug.

Who was it if I may ask?

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

If we only did things we already knew were fun, nobody would ever do anything. People do things that look like fun.

True. But if you didn't know it would be fun, what was the initial reason you started? This is the first point of the OP. My premise is that it's generally self-defense, to gain confidence in walking this wild, occasionally dangerous world.

I really don't understand the premise of this question.

The second point of the OP is that while, once started, one finds a bunch of other stuff besides fighting in TMA that they like. But can this "other stuff" become so prevalent that the martial self-defense aspect of TMA suffers? This is the title question of the OP, how far do we wander from the original intent of TMA in pursuit of form over function, sport, spirituality, exercise, etc. Where do we draw the line so that MA remains martial in its essence.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I don't think just getting into a martial art necessarily prepares one to fight, but it does give one experience of knowing how to kick and punch. Just that little bit is a good thing to know. For most the martial arts is just an "activity" and that's alright too.

I agree with all of this. One can plumb the depths of TMA as much as one desires. Some stay in the shallows and enjoy it as an "activity," others dive deep and find a lifestyle. Many are happy in the in-between. The concern the OP raises is will the deep end survive the 21st century amidst changing times, commercialism, and the general softening of society. Or will the legacy of Kusanku, Matsumura and Higaonna fade away?

 

[HighKick]

Many would say it's great exercise. True, but one can lift weights, do push-ups and run to stay in shape. The options are endless and specifically designed to reach that goal.

A well-rounded program provides more than enough VARYING types of exercise for the average person.
A well-rounded school provides programs for those beyond the average person.

Some would say to strengthen their spirit but there are many options for this, too: Meditation, philosophy, religion, etc.

A good, complete TMA trains the triad of mental, physical, And spiritual. In a sound, healthy manner. No whack-a-doo stuff.

ome would say to gain confidence. With public speaking? Dating? Job performance? More than likely it's more primal - the confidence that one can deal with a physical attack

In a good TMA program, this is gained as a person progresses. This one varies as much as people vary.

Most of us have a lingering doubt or fear of battle. I believe this is much more common than one may think as few would openly admit it.

I hope everyone has some fear of attack/battle. Learning to not be overcome by the fear is one of the biggest components to learning in a good, sound TMA.



How do all this compare and contrast to a more carnal training like MMA? It teaches control and character in conjunction with the physical training. It replaces some of the fear of attack/battle with the fear of the injury WE could inflict on someone. It is Not win at all cost in some cases. A good program intrinsically teaches situation awareness and de-escalation. A good program teaches you how to win AND how to lose. And there is just so much more.

 

[Haruhiko]

A lot of TMA is guilty of this, teaching techniques without realistic application and spending time on concepts that do not advance its core purpose of self-defense.

I consider myself a custodian of an art that should be transmitted to future generations as I was taught.

I don't seek to apply it in the real world (I do, consciously, but that's a more nuanced topic) or show it off or improve the art itself. I seek to learn from it, understand myself and the art deeper, and count myself privileged to be part of a martial history.

I'm not quite articulating myself sufficiently enough, but TMAs aren't superficial or in need for adaptation outside the scope of the foundation laid by their founders. Maybe that's why branches exist.

While TMA does get one in shape and foster a beneficial spirit as by-products of training, isn't the main goal its martial aspects?

That depends on the art. There's one koryū I'm aware of that actively promotes inter-ryū matches, and others that forbid it entirely. Strategy is the most important aspect of martial theory. If I wanted to bonk people with swords and advertise it I'd do kendo.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Who was it if I may ask?

For the first couple of years I thought it was him. But then I started to realize that it was me.