As would a striking art, no?
To a point yes.
Grappling is a Waste of time
- Thread starter LuckyKBoxer
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To a point yes.
hongkongfooey
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Balrog
Master of Arts
Grappling is a Waste of time
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I disagree. We practice martial arts for a variety of reasons but the foundation of all m. a. training is self defense. Why would one totally ignore a major aspect of that training?
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I disagree. We practice martial arts for a variety of reasons but the foundation of all m. a. training is self defense. Why would one totally ignore a major aspect of that training?
OP
LuckyKBoxer
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no lol
chinto
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ok my two cents worth here.... Grappling is not a waste of time for self defense, but rolling around on the ground if you can avoid it is not a smart way to do it.
Okinawan karate has a lot of grappling in it, but the idea is to put the attacker down and be standing to finish it. this is because the attackers usually do not come in singles but in groups. being on the ground means that his friends can kick your head in while you are there.
Okinawan karate has a lot of grappling in it, but the idea is to put the attacker down and be standing to finish it. this is because the attackers usually do not come in singles but in groups. being on the ground means that his friends can kick your head in while you are there.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
Grappling IS a waste of time... IF your life, safety or that of another is at stake... grappling - joint locks-throws are all useless in a NON-SOCIAL setting.
I respect everyone and am not attempting to defile or deface any "martial arts"... I am merely commenting from a "violence" or "a-social" standpoint.
I respect everyone and am not attempting to defile or deface any "martial arts"... I am merely commenting from a "violence" or "a-social" standpoint.
Grappling, joint locks and throws covers a HUGE section of the martial arts. Not just arts that use those skills as their central focus but many of the more "hard styles" also include some grappling, joint locks and throws into the style. A blanket statement like that certainly makes one wonder if a true understanding of the full spectrum of self defense is understood. What do you suggest is the only way to defend yourself if you cut that many different ways of defending ones self out of the equation?
BLACK LION
Black Belt
not everyone can be thrown-locked-manipulated...
size - strength-weight-pain tolerance-chemical additives come into play here...
everyone can be dumped and broken... no matter what.
here is where I am going with this... by injuring a human I can control thier center of gravity by replacing it with mine... gravity and physics will do the rest. If I grab his testicles and squeeze with one hand and elbow him in the throat with the other he is getting dumped no matter what.
size - strength-weight-pain tolerance-chemical additives come into play here...
everyone can be dumped and broken... no matter what.
here is where I am going with this... by injuring a human I can control thier center of gravity by replacing it with mine... gravity and physics will do the rest. If I grab his testicles and squeeze with one hand and elbow him in the throat with the other he is getting dumped no matter what.
The groin grab/elbow to the throat technique won't work everytime. Arts that use joint locks are free to turn that lock into a break. Locks are just safer from a legal perspective. Throwing arts use the concept of replacing an attackers center with theirs as the center of their art. While pain compliance may not always work (as with your valid point about chemical additives) the technique used to apply pain may often be used to destroy the joint that is being manipulated, there by rendering the limb useless. Now, I don't expect to convince you that arts other than the one that you practice is effective for true self defense. I've been here far too long to even attempt it. However, I would be impressed if you'd at least visit a few schools that train in those aspects of the arts that you readily cast off and at least attempt to realize that they have their place in self defense. :asian:
Bruno@MT
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An art that gets a lot of flak for being useless in a real situation is aikido.
However, I suggest you look at this vid on youtube and then think about your words. If aikido works in an MMA cage, it'll probably work in a streetfight as well.
Joint locks, throws, and tai sabaki are definitely not useless.
In case you were wondering: there is a good reason why aikidoka perform big rolls when someone is doing a seemingly trivial manipulations. They do it to prevent a face-plant, or to prevent their elbow from bending the wrong way.
However, I suggest you look at this vid on youtube and then think about your words. If aikido works in an MMA cage, it'll probably work in a streetfight as well.
Joint locks, throws, and tai sabaki are definitely not useless.
In case you were wondering: there is a good reason why aikidoka perform big rolls when someone is doing a seemingly trivial manipulations. They do it to prevent a face-plant, or to prevent their elbow from bending the wrong way.
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Excellent vid, Bruno. Both of those techniques are ones that are introduced at the beginner level in my style and progress into more and more applications as the student progresses.
Like anything in the arts, locks have their place. IMO, I don't think that they're something that we should necessarily look for, but take advantage of when the opportunity presents itself. As an example...a lock flow drill will take us thru a series of locks. Of course, in a RL situation, nobody is going to flow from one to the next as in the drill, but the idea of the drill is to teach how to flow so if something fails, it'll be easier to move to something else.
I do the majority of my locks in Arnis, and yes, I've worked with people who are cousins to Gumby, I've worked with people who I barely have to apply the lock, and they're tapping, and I've worked with guys who are huge. There are times when the thought of applying a lock to them would probably be pointless vs. doing something that would probably stand a better chance of working. Does this mean I toss the locks out? Of course not, because they still have value. If the lock does nothing more than off balance them for a moment, thats fine. I can move onto something else. As we saw in that clip Bruno posted, the end results of a lock can be devastating. Whats that phrase that we always see on BJJ shirts....Tap or snap. So, thats fine with me. If someone is not feeling the pain from the wrist lock, I'm more than sure when the wrist breaks, they'll feel that, and it'll take away one of their weapons.
Of course, no matter how big, strong, or what kind of drug someone is on, a choke, such as a RNC, is probably a sure shot at success.
I do the majority of my locks in Arnis, and yes, I've worked with people who are cousins to Gumby, I've worked with people who I barely have to apply the lock, and they're tapping, and I've worked with guys who are huge. There are times when the thought of applying a lock to them would probably be pointless vs. doing something that would probably stand a better chance of working. Does this mean I toss the locks out? Of course not, because they still have value. If the lock does nothing more than off balance them for a moment, thats fine. I can move onto something else. As we saw in that clip Bruno posted, the end results of a lock can be devastating. Whats that phrase that we always see on BJJ shirts....Tap or snap.
So, thats fine with me. If someone is not feeling the pain from the wrist lock, I'm more than sure when the wrist breaks, they'll feel that, and it'll take away one of their weapons.Of course, no matter how big, strong, or what kind of drug someone is on, a choke, such as a RNC, is probably a sure shot at success.
blindsage
Master of Arts
No technique works on everyone. Your standards of 'strength-weight-pain tolerance-chemical additives' apply to the same techniques you mentioned. Try your guaranteed techniques on somebody high on PCP and see who gets dumped first, if you're even able to get inside their defenses close enough to do those moves to begin with. There are always exceptions, but your idea of what works and is effective or not seems pretty limited and not based much in reality.
I must respectfully disagree with you on this point, unless you limit your definition of grappling entirely to groundwork.
Even if you were referring soley to groundwork, I would still disagree that it is useless outside of a social setting, though I would concede that you would have a stronger case.
Grappling is not limited to groundwork, and grappling can be very effective. Grappling techniques have been an important and vital part of military training for centuries, and its inclusion is not for the purpose of board soldiers wagering on wrestling matches.
Daniel
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
When I first read BLACK LION's post I thought he was joking. Guess that wasn't the case. All the above posts have explained quite well why grappling is effective in real fighting. Not to mention that almost any video that shows people fighting for real has some degree of grappling.
If these techniques weren't effective why would every warrior class in the world have them?
If these techniques weren't effective why would every warrior class in the world have them?
chinto
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I must disagree, grappling that does not go to the ground with the attacker is very very effective. if you lock and throw or brake and throw the attacker then you can if necessary finish it with deadly force.
Also remember that at least several throws in the Okinawan arts done properly do in fact end in a fatality most of the time when done for real. Most of your older arts have a grappling component, but it is not one that wants to be on the ground with the attacker as you are to vulnerable there.
the other thing is some of the grapples do things that prevent the attacker form continuing their attack as you use techniques on them that may or may not be crippling or fatal.
SO I must conclude that either you were referring to arts that go to the ground with the attacker by choice such as BJJ or are not really trained in such applications.
I'm still surprised at the number of people who think that when they hear the word GRAPPLING, that it means the ground. Yes, that is what we saw in the early days, but look at the fighters today....we have clinch work, chokes while standing, and of couse, a few other things. We may not see as much in the ring, due to the fact that the fighters are just wearing shorts, but throw on a gi top, a shirt, a jacket, and you'd be surprised as to what good things you can find. Yes, some slight adjustments will have to be made, but hey, thats part of the game.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
what "reality" are you referring to... the comfy bubble or unforgiving actuality... no technique works every time... I am not referring to technique... I am referring to principle, which is basic truth... I am not guaranteeing any "technique" ...I am merely stating that by targeting an inherent weakness and driving the entire body through that point you are creating injury... not pain. A thai kick to the leg is very painful but a broken hip or knee is debilitating and possibly permanent.
When you actually do train to face a real situation in which your life or that of another is in danger...your whole playbook goes out the window and you are left with simple basic principles to employ under gross motor function....
hmmmmm
shoot in for an arm bar or submission or crush a trachea.... ???
a standing arm lock to control a blade or a thumb knuckle through the orbital fissures...???
pcp or not... with a crushed trachea its only a matter of time... with crushed or gouged eyeballs its only a matter of time... a ruptured inner ear , middle ear or eardrum is only a matter of time.... we are talking the destruction of sensory organs my friend... not some arm lock on someone who you can control or think you can... I dont deal in defenses... If I want to get to you to injure you or shut you down for good, I will... plain and simple... no compromise here... its 300% me... 0 them... and I am getting to that grey matter if I have to shut every organ or break every bone on the way....
injuries work on everyone... regardless or thier disposition....
you are speaking of pain... I am speaking of injury... I feel like you should understand the two before questioning my experience...
I dont spew my ignorance on these boards and I would request the same courtesy... I am here, merely offering a different angle...take it or leave it but dont disrespect me.
I certainly see your points, however, for myself, I think its wise to assess the situation, and base a response off of that. In other words, crushing the throat of some bum on the street, who simply stands in front of you asking for money, will most likely find yourself in jail. Now, let that same bum pull a blade or gun, well, thats a different story, and yes, in that case, I could justify that kind of force.
I'm sure you knew this, but I figured, that by the nature of some of the recent posts, I thought I'd throw it out, just to keep all of us in check with what we do.
chinto
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the 'grapples' that are in the Okinawan systems are designed to brake and other wise cause injury that is debilitating. most of the older systems do the same. I am not sure what your getting at, perhaps again your referring to what they use in say the UFC cage matches and such?
the UFC and cage matches have a lot of rules to protect the fighter. Most of the older systems do not care about such things, quite the opposite, rather are looking to maim and injure.
The older systems have grapples that are designed to give you an advantage of controlling them so you can do maximum damage in minimum time and with least effort expended.
This is not rolling around on the ground like say BJJ in the UFC! but rather using the grapples to bring maximum damage to the attacker with least effort and time expended.
also, as stated before, there are times when deadly force would be counter productive in this days legal environment. where a police officer might be able to cripple with little scrutiny you will most assuredly not be able to under the exact same conditions! If nothing else the low life's relatives will be suing you for excessive force or even file with the DA charges of criminal assault !
10 or 20 years in prison is a stiff price to pay.
