Grappling is a Waste of time

[Aiki Lee]

1. My teacher's teacher told us of a time when he was attacked in his youth and put in a headlock, this man threatned to kill my him so, my teacher's teacher (teacher x2) rammed his fingers into the guy's eyes and permanently blinded one side of him. You know what happened? The guy didn't let go. He said, "You may take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." So teacher x2 took two punches to the face, until he got his bearings and threw him to the ground rendering him in a bad state, where upon the police arrived.

So there you go, proof that grappling works.

2. So every fight you're in you're going to use deadly force? Others have already commented on lower levels of attack not necessarily justifying such force. What if a friend of yours got really really drunk or something and attacked you, would you cripple him forever?

The truth is that grappling and striking are both necessary for a street or battlefield effective martial art. I wouldn't recommend fighting it out on the ground if you could get up, but even groundfighting is somewhat necessary incase you find yourself on the ground and need to get up quickly.

Grappling can involve submission, if the attacker is not someone you want to badly hurt, but these "submissions" are most of the time actually breaks or killing throws or chokes.

You're right that gross motor skills are more relaible that fine ones in a fight, but many throws, locks, breaks, and chokes use gross motor skills. Even fine motor skills can be used if a person trains enough in them, though this is very difficult and requires a high level of martial skill.

If you don't see the purpose of grappling in a real life fight, then I must conclude that either 1) you have no actual experience in combative grappling techniques or 2) you have a very limited understanding of fighting.

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, it just that most of us seem to agree that you don't have a very valid point on this subject.

 

[Aiki Lee]

BLACK LION, I was looking at your profile to see what you trained in and under primary art and ranking it says "none". Have you had no formal training?

 

[blindsage]

what "reality" are you referring to... the comfy bubble or unforgiving actuality... no technique works every time... I am not referring to technique... I am referring to principle, which is basic truth... I am not guaranteeing any "technique" ...I am merely stating that by targeting an inherent weakness and driving the entire body through that point you are creating injury... not pain. A thai kick to the leg is very painful but a broken hip or knee is debilitating and possibly permanent.
When you actually do train to face a real situation in which your life or that of another is in danger...your whole playbook goes out the window and you are left with simple basic principles to employ under gross motor function....

Great, if life and limb are at stake, I, and most everyone else on here would agree. But as has been pointed out before, not all situations require murder and/or maiming, nor is it appropriate in all situations. And yes, when you talk about 'targeting an inherent weakness', 'driving the entire body through that point', 'broken hip or knee', you are talking about technique and not just principle. You have to know how to accomplish all of those things, and they all require technique of some kind. 'Targeting' anything is a skill, not a simple gross motor movement. Using your whole body in an attack is a skill, and not an overnight one to learn. Breaking joints and bones require a knoledge of anatomy, angles and use of force that is relatively simple for some things (fingers, knees) and not simple at all for others (hip, wrist), and requires training in technique to accomplish.

shoot in for an arm bar or submission or crush a trachea.... ???

Who advocates shooting in for an armbar for street defense? And crushing a trachea is great (I guess) if you can get through to their throat, which doesn't happen just because you want it to.

a standing arm lock to control a blade or a thumb knuckle through the orbital fissures...???

If somebody comes at you with a blade, good luck just sticking your thumb in their eye without any other entry technique, trapping or grappling.

pcp or not... with a crushed trachea its only a matter of time... with crushed or gouged eyeballs its only a matter of time... a ruptured inner ear , middle ear or eardrum is only a matter of time.... we are talking the destruction of sensory organs my friend... not some arm lock on someone who you can control or think you can... I dont deal in defenses... If I want to get to you to injure you or shut you down for good, I will... plain and simple... no compromise here... its 300% me... 0 them... and I am getting to that grey matter if I have to shut every organ or break every bone on the way....

I've never had to deal with anyone on PCP, but from the police stories I've heard, I wouldn't bet on anything specific working. So, you crushed their trachea and dude's going to die in 5 minutes, great. In the mean time he's busy taking you with him. And good luck with always being the bigger badass in a fight. You may have no compromise, and I guess that's great for you, but against a better, smarter fighter, with better technique, more experience, and even bigger balls....good luck with that.

injuries work on everyone... regardless or thier disposition....
you are speaking of pain... I am speaking of injury... I feel like you should understand the two before questioning my experience...

Yes, injuries work on everyone, but not all people are the same, not all injuries are the same. And no, me speaking of grappling as useful does not indicate some ignorance of the difference between pain and injury, it indicates an understanding of the difference. Especially since much grappling involves breaking joints and limbs, attacking vital points and taking opponents down brutally, which you seem unaware of.

I dont spew my ignorance on these boards and I would request the same courtesy... I am here, merely offering a different angle...take it or leave it but dont disrespect me.

There is no disrespect. There is a difference of opinion. You presented yours very forcefully and was challenged on it by other experienced martial artists. You say

Grappling IS a waste of time... IF your life, safety or that of another is at stake... grappling - joint locks-throws are all useless in a NON-SOCIAL setting.

To most martial artists with any grappling experience, this statement demonstrates a lack of experience/understanding of grappling, and a lack of understanding of its usefulness in self-defense/fighting/combat situations demonstrated by the fact, as stated by a previous poster, that most militaries throughout history have included some form of grappling in their training, and continue to do so today. I'm not trying to disrespect you, but there are a lot of other experienced martial artists, many with plenty of real life self-defense/fight experience, on here and none of them appear to be agreeing with you. There's a reason for that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am merely stating that by targeting an inherent weakness and driving the entire body through that point you are creating injury... not pain. A thai kick to the leg is very painful but a broken hip or knee is debilitating and possibly permanent.
When you actually do train to face a real situation in which your life or that of another is in danger...your whole playbook goes out the window and you are left with simple basic principles to employ under gross motor function.... .

Agreed, but one can visit a great deal of injury upon another via effective grapples.

shoot in for an arm bar or submission or crush a trachea.... ???

a standing arm lock to control a blade or a thumb knuckle through the orbital fissures...???.

Why shoot for any of these? I certainly will not shoot for an armbar or crushing the trachea; the trachea crush is nice if the opportunity presents itself, but it is a very small target that requires me to enter my opponent's strike zone to execute. And nobody with a brain is going to go for a submission hold in real life, so that is a bit of a straw man comparison.

As for the choice between a standing arm lock to control a blade vs. a thumb knuckle through the orbital fissures, again, why would I choose either of these? You have the same issue as the arm bar vs. trachea crush: close contact in an opponents strike zone and a small, well defended target. Neither are good options. If the trachea crush and the eye gouge present themselves, than take them if you can. But nobody in their right mind will shoot for either.

In both scenarios, I'll stick with maintaining distance and seeking a means of escape while being aware of any 'friends' he may have. Any strikes will be aimed at incapacitation, so low kicks to the knees would likely be my first choice; the knees are much more difficult to defend than the trachea or orbital sockets. If I am forced into a grapple, I can still stike the knees while locking him up, but I would much prefer to avoid contact close enough for a grapple.

pcp or not... with a crushed trachea its only a matter of time... with crushed or gouged eyeballs its only a matter of time... a ruptured inner ear , middle ear or eardrum is only a matter of time.... we are talking the destruction of sensory organs my friend... not some arm lock on someone who you can control or think you can... I dont deal in defenses... If I want to get to you to injure you or shut you down for good, I will... plain and simple... no compromise here... its 300% me... 0 them... and I am getting to that grey matter if I have to shut every organ or break every bone on the way.....

And your attacker will likely have the same attitude and may have friends. Friends who may attempt to grapple you to keep you still. A bit of grappling ability can aid you in keeping yourself from being grabbed or put into a grapple, even if you do not need to initiate a grapple yourself.

injuries work on everyone... regardless or thier disposition....
you are speaking of pain... I am speaking of injury... I feel like you should understand the two before questioning my experience...
I dont spew my ignorance on these boards and I would request the same courtesy... I am here, merely offering a different angle...take it or leave it but dont disrespect me.

You make some good points, but before accusing others of disrespect, you may wish to take a step back and look at the tone of your own posts.

Daniel

 

[BLACK LION]

1. My teacher's teacher told us of a time when he was attacked in his youth and put in a headlock, this man threatned to kill my him so, my teacher's teacher (teacher x2) rammed his fingers into the guy's eyes and permanently blinded one side of him. You know what happened? The guy didn't let go. He said, "You may take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." So teacher x2 took two punches to the face, until he got his bearings and threw him to the ground rendering him in a bad state, where upon the police arrived. You cannot take any singular injury to the bank and expect to cash out. You must continue till the threat ceases. Injuries are like links in a chain...you must link them one by one till satisfied with the effect or result.

So there you go, proof that grappling works. If you call a "headlock" and a throw to the ground grappling

2. So every fight you're in you're going to use deadly force? Others have already commented on lower levels of attack not necessarily justifying such force. What if a friend of yours got really really drunk or something and attacked you, would you cripple him forever? I do not endulge in social confrontations or "fights".... if its not a safety or survival situation then I gladly detach myself alltogether or negotiate my terms to be complied to.

The truth is that grappling and striking are both necessary for a street or battlefield effective martial art. I wouldn't recommend fighting it out on the ground if you could get up, but even groundfighting is somewhat necessary incase you find yourself on the ground and need to get up quickly. Street and battlefield?? You go ahead and grapple and I can bet my next check you will meet the end of a blade, bottle or boot... happens too often.... and in fact a world class bjj practitioner just joined my buddies bunjinkan studio here becuase he took someone down in a streetfight recently and was choking him out when he met a blunt object and his chokees buddy behind it....

Grappling can involve submission, if the attacker is not someone you want to badly hurt, but these "submissions" are most of the time actually breaks or killing throws or chokes. Submitting someone is merely a social ending to a social confrontation. If its a situation that requires a submission then its a situation I wouldnt even be in. That crap is purely avoidable. I deal in survival not dancing with the stars. If I had to tie someone up... I would politely grab a throat or another select choice area to make damn sure the point is taken and we need not proceed further.... I refrained from killing a 150lb dog recently the very same way.

You're right that gross motor skills are more relaible that fine ones in a fight, but many throws, locks, breaks, and chokes use gross motor skills. Even fine motor skills can be used if a person trains enough in them, though this is very difficult and requires a high level of martial skill. I speak of gross motor functions in high stress survival situations... ones where survival is measure in seconds not in rounds or bouts. One cannot depend on a playbook of sorts only basic necessity.



If you don't see the purpose of grappling in a real life fight, then I must conclude that either 1) you have no actual experience in combative grappling techniques or 2) you have a very limited understanding of fighting. I have to conclude that you are in an internet fog and this conversation would be moot if we were live right now.

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, it just that most of us seem to agree that you don't have a very valid point on this subject.

Most of who? The couple guys thanking you in your posts. What about the many who thank me without making a public spectacle about it. I enjoy how you have made it a personal point to discredit me directly. I post here becuase everyone is respectful and professional in how they conduct themselves. I have yet to personally direct disrespect or contempt to any individual member of this board. I make general statements based on my own convictions. I would much rather you actually read and try to understand my perspective before you come around pushing and boasting yours.....

AND.... I have no need nor any desire to uplaod a resume for reference... this isnt some job website or datinig service...
You want my experience, you have to come and get it.

 

[MJS]

Most of who? The couple guys thanking you in your posts. What about the many who thank me without making a public spectacle about it. I enjoy how you have made it a personal point to discredit me directly. I post here becuase everyone is respectful and professional in how they conduct themselves. I have yet to personally direct disrespect or contempt to any individual member of this board. I make general statements based on my own convictions. I would much rather you actually read and try to understand my perspective before you come around pushing and boasting yours.....

Yes, this forum is good because of its friendly nature. I think we should all do our best to keep this thread friendly. Of course, everyone will have their opinions on things. While we may not agree, we should at least respect that differences will happen.

AND.... I have no need nor any desire to uplaod a resume for reference... this isnt some job website or datinig service...

You want my experience, you have to come and get it.

Of course, however, its always helpful to know the background of someone. I mean, if I had a dollar for every person I came across on various forums, who were nothing but armchair QBs, I'd be rich. Not saying thats the case with you, just making a general statement. As for the last line of your post, I'm going out on a limb and assuming that wasn't intended to be a challenge. I say that because if it was a challenge, that is a first class ticket for a boot off this forum.


As for the rest of the other post that you quoted, which didn't get into this post, I'll comment on a few things....grappling is not the end all be all of SD. However, it, like everything else, has its place and time. In a mult. attacker situation, I'm not going to roll around. Then again, even in a single attack situation, no matter how hard we try, nothing says that we won't end up on the ground, and if we do, the grappling arts do give us a good safe way to get back up.

I'll also add that you seem to make it a habit to mention extreme violence in every post you make. IMHO, I think its wise to assess the situation and base your response off of that, because if you do what you say you'd do, for someone verbally assaulting you, you're probably going to find yourself in jail. I mean really....is it necessary to take someones eyes because they call you an *******? If you have to end every confrontation with that amount of violence, I think you'd better re-eval. yourself. Someone pushes you and you're going to take the eyes, knee and throat??? Damn.

 

[BLACK LION]

Great, if life and limb are at stake, I, and most everyone else on here would agree. But as has been pointed out before, not all situations require murder and/or maiming, nor is it appropriate in all situations. Then its a purely avoidable confrontation that only requires you subtracting your ego and yourself from th equation. And yes, when you talk about 'targeting an inherent weakness', 'driving the entire body through that point', 'broken hip or knee', you are talking about technique and not just principle.No I am talking about principles of physics and physilogy. You have to know how to accomplish all of those things, and they all require technique of some kind. They require principles. 'Targeting' anything is a skill, not a simple gross motor movement."Gross motor skill". Using your whole body in an attack is a skill, and not an overnight one to learn.Of course not, but it does not take years of money and colorful belts either. Breaking joints and bones require a knoledge of anatomy, angles and use of force that is relatively simple for some things (fingers, knees) and not simple at all for others (hip, wrist), and requires training in technique to accomplish. All require the same common factor...taking the joint past its pathological limit. there are only 6 ways a joint can break...rotation-flexion-supination-pronation-abduction-adduction...

Who advocates shooting in for an armbar for street defense?Many people posing the same rebuttle you are. And crushing a trachea is great (I guess) if you can get through to their throat, which doesn't happen just because you want it to. Actually it does... same reason shootings and stabbings happen, becuase they intend it to.


If somebody comes at you with a blade, good luck just sticking your thumb in their eye without any other entry technique, trapping or grappling. Why on earth would you grapple with a blade???


I've never had to deal with anyone on PCP, but from the police stories I've heard, I wouldn't bet on anything specific working. So, you crushed their trachea and dude's going to die in 5 minutes, great.Every injury follows another, so singular injury can be relied upon for comlpete stoppage. In the mean time he's busy taking you with him. And good luck with always being the bigger badass in a fight.Here we are again talking about fighting. I am taking about survival and in that realm it is all about me and never them. You may have no compromise, and I guess that's great for you, but against a better, smarter fighter, with better technique, more experience, and even bigger balls....good luck with that.Here we are back in the social realm again. This is exactly why you do not understand my point. Violence for you is a domestication not a habituation.


Yes, injuries work on everyone, but not all people are the same, not all injuries are the same. And no, me speaking of grappling as useful does not indicate some ignorance of the difference between pain and injury, it indicates an understanding of the difference. Especially since much grappling involves breaking joints and limbs, attacking vital points and taking opponents down brutally, which you seem unaware of. No, it seems to be only referenced in a fight and as a means of submission. My point is, you dont need to grapple to break anything. You need leverage and the ability to take it beyond its limit. Stomping on an ankle or knee or neck could produce remarkable results.


There is no disrespect. There is a difference of opinion. You presented yours very forcefully and was challenged on it by other experienced martial artists. You say. I did not type in all caps... not direct my post to any one or any entitiy. You cant force anything by typing in a forum my friend...

To most martial artists with any grappling experience, this statement demonstrates a lack of experience/understanding of grappling, and a lack of understanding of its usefulness in self-defense/fighting/combat situations demonstrated by the fact, as stated by a previous poster, that most militaries throughout history have included some form of grappling in their training, and continue to do so today.Just because the military does it...doesnt make it effective... take the .556 cartridge for example. I'm not trying to disrespect you, but there are a lot of other experienced martial artists, many with plenty of real life self-defense/fight experience, on here and none of them appear to be agreeing with you. There's a reason for that.

I s there a reason?? You agree with me and you have to turn your back on decades of training. I did.
You train your way and I train mine. I am merely an opposing force against the norm... take it as you will it has nothing to do with a lack of skill or expertise... this is the internet...remember

 

[blindsage]

I s there a reason?? You agree with me and you have to turn your back on decades of training. I did.
You train your way and I train mine. I am merely an opposing force against the norm... take it as you will it has nothing to do with a lack of skill or expertise... this is the internet...remember

Ok...good luck.

 

[MJS]

Dude, you really need to use the quote feature, as it'll make commenting on your posts much easier. So, for the sake of trying to sort thru this, er, um, mess, I'll comment after the bold part, which was your reply to the other poster.

Great, if life and limb are at stake, I, and most everyone else on here would agree. But as has been pointed out before, not all situations require murder and/or maiming, nor is it appropriate in all situations. Then its a purely avoidable confrontation that only requires you subtracting your ego and yourself from th equation.

Not true. You're saying that the confrontations are avoidable if they don't require the use of deadly force. Sorry, to break the news to you, but I, as well as others here, I'm sure, have been in situations that did not require deadly force, and were not avoidable.

And yes, when you talk about 'targeting an inherent weakness', 'driving the entire body through that point', 'broken hip or knee', you are talking about technique and not just principle.No I am talking about principles of physics and physilogy.

Without a foundation to build those principles from, the techniques or anything you do will be useless. For example...I commented in another thread in which the OP was asking about distance learning. I said that I was watching a dvd, in which the person on the dvd was not showing techs. per se, but ideas, concepts, etc., for various situations. However, if a newbie to the arts were to look at that dvd, they'd be clueless because if they have no foundation to build from, they'll have no idea how to respond to the situation. Now, once you have that foundation, then yes, of course, you probably won't always pull off a textbook technique, but instead use parts, ideas, etc., from it. But again, you still need a foundation to build from.

You have to know how to accomplish all of those things, and they all require technique of some kind. They require principles. 'Targeting' anything is a skill, not a simple gross motor movement."Gross motor skill". Using your whole body in an attack is a skill, and not an overnight one to learn.Of course not, but it does not take years of money and colorful belts either. Breaking joints and bones require a knoledge of anatomy, angles and use of force that is relatively simple for some things (fingers, knees) and not simple at all for others (hip, wrist), and requires training in technique to accomplish. All require the same common factor...taking the joint past its pathological limit. there are only 6 ways a joint can break...rotation-flexion-supination-pronation-abduction-adduction...

See my above comment on this. Without a foundation, you won't have a clue as to what to do.

Who advocates shooting in for an armbar for street defense?Many people posing the same rebuttle you are.

Are you reading the posts here before you reply??? This is a classic example of someone assuming that all grappling goes to the ground. Not the case at all.

And crushing a trachea is great (I guess) if you can get through to their throat, which doesn't happen just because you want it to. Actually it does... same reason shootings and stabbings happen, becuase they intend it to.

First and foremost, control is going to need to be gained of the weapon. You're telling me that you don't need to control the weapon and instead you're going right in for the throat hit?

If somebody comes at you with a blade, good luck just sticking your thumb in their eye without any other entry technique, trapping or grappling. Why on earth would you grapple with a blade???

Why on earth do you keep assuming?? I don't recall seeing anyone say that they'd go to the ground with someone who had a knife. If that was said, please point it out to me. Again, you are assuming that is what was said. However, as I pointed out above, grappling doesnt mean going to the ground.

I've never had to deal with anyone on PCP, but from the police stories I've heard, I wouldn't bet on anything specific working. So, you crushed their trachea and dude's going to die in 5 minutes, great.Every injury follows another, so singular injury can be relied upon for comlpete stoppage.

Sure, if the situation requires it.

In the mean time he's busy taking you with him. And good luck with always being the bigger badass in a fight.Here we are again talking about fighting. I am taking about survival and in that realm it is all about me and never them. You may have no compromise, and I guess that's great for you, but against a better, smarter fighter, with better technique, more experience, and even bigger balls....good luck with that.Here we are back in the social realm again. This is exactly why you do not understand my point. Violence for you is a domestication not a habituation.

Have you considered relocating as it seems that you live in a crappy area. I mean, every post we see from you, you advocate extreme violence. Sorry, but every situation will NOT require crushing a throat. I've survived situations without throwing a single punch. According to you, I should have taken the guys life. Again, situation at the time didn't warrant that, so I didn't do it. Had it escalated, I'd have responded accordingly.

Yes, injuries work on everyone, but not all people are the same, not all injuries are the same. And no, me speaking of grappling as useful does not indicate some ignorance of the difference between pain and injury, it indicates an understanding of the difference. Especially since much grappling involves breaking joints and limbs, attacking vital points and taking opponents down brutally, which you seem unaware of. No, it seems to be only referenced in a fight and as a means of submission. My point is, you dont need to grapple to break anything. You need leverage and the ability to take it beyond its limit. Stomping on an ankle or knee or neck could produce remarkable results.

I see your point and I agree, that you don't need to grapple to break something. You seem to harp on the grappling part. If you actually read what some of us are saying, is that, a) grappling is not the end all, be all, b) not every fight goes to the ground, c) if they do however, it would be wise to know enough to survive and get back to your feet. I'm far from a world class ground fighter, but I know enough to survive.

There is no disrespect. There is a difference of opinion. You presented yours very forcefully and was challenged on it by other experienced martial artists. You say. I did not type in all caps... not direct my post to any one or any entitiy. You cant force anything by typing in a forum my friend...

Well, one thing that can be enforced is the rules of this forum, and it may be wise of you to read up on them before you get removed from here. Differences of opinion happen all the time, but at least have some respect for that fact.

To most martial artists with any grappling experience, this statement demonstrates a lack of experience/understanding of grappling, and a lack of understanding of its usefulness in self-defense/fighting/combat situations demonstrated by the fact, as stated by a previous poster, that most militaries throughout history have included some form of grappling in their training, and continue to do so today.Just because the military does it...doesnt make it effective... take the .556 cartridge for example. I'm not trying to disrespect you, but there are a lot of other experienced martial artists, many with plenty of real life self-defense/fight experience, on here and none of them appear to be agreeing with you.

What the hell does the military have to do with this thread?

There's a reason for that.

I s there a reason?? You agree with me and you have to turn your back on decades of training. I did.
You train your way and I train mine. I am merely an opposing force against the norm... take it as you will it has nothing to do with a lack of skill or expertise... this is the internet...remember

Oh, you're against the norm alright. However, while this is the 'net, some people do come off like they're armchair QBs, fantasy warriors, you name it, its out there. IMO, you're coming off like some blood thirsty killer, who'd kill someone with a throat strike if they looked at you crosseyed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Before this thread becomes heated, I would like to point out that on both sides of this discussion with Black Lion, good points and observations have been made.

I think that there is a bit of an issue in how grappling is defined by different posters in this discussion that may be leading to seeming disagreements.

I would also like to point out that for all any of us know, we could all be special forces bad boys & girls who can kill with our fountain pens or we could all be Soul Calibur IV junkes who have never been in a fight that did not involve joy sicks.

Since none of us knows the true experience of anyone else on this board short of knowing eachother off the web, let us avoid questioning others training and experience without some very good reason. An obviously false statement is one thing, as are inconsistent statements, but blanket statements like, 'you obviously haven't trained for very long' or 'you don't know anything about grappling' should be avoided.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

The following is just my opinion:

Ground fighting/Ground grappling: Engaging with an opponent on the ground. The use of BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc., to finish your opponent on the ground with the use of submissions or chokes.

Standing Grappling: Clinch work. Any time 2 opponents engage with each other, and one grabs the other, in an attempt to control them. A bearhug, a lapel grab, a wrist grab, a choke....all versions or standing grappling.

IMO, one doesn't need to be 'on the ground' in order to apply a choke or lock. Of course, modifications will need to be made due to the fact that you're now standing vs. being on the ground.

These are simply tools in the toolbox. You pull the tool that you need at the time. You may need one tool, you may need 5, but to say that a particular tool will never be needed...foolish. I'd rather have it and not need it, than to need it and wish I had it.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Since none of us knows the true experience of anyone else on this board short of knowing eachother off the web, let us avoid questioning others training and experience without some very good reason. An obviously false statement is one thing, as are inconsistent statements, but blanket statements like, 'you obviously haven't trained for very long' or 'you don't know anything about grappling' should be avoided.

Daniel

I suppose you have a point.

 

[Flying Crane]

grappling - joint locks-throws are all useless in a NON-SOCIAL setting.

I don't understand what you are saying here. What is the social setting in which grappling, joint locks, and throws are useful?

When I think of a social setting, I think of going out to dinner with friends. I don't go out to dinner with them and then practice joint locks on them.

I think by definition, a fight or combat or self defense situation is a non-social setting. You are dealing with a hostile opponent in a hostile situation.

I guess I just don't understand the contrast you are making.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Black Lion,

How do you define 'grappling' when you say that it is useless outside of a social situation? Do you mean taking people to the ground and submitting them or do you mean any grappling at all?

By social situation, I assume that you mean sport, drunks at parties, and jostling for social dominance within a group where physical testing is considered acceptable (such as amongs high school boys).

Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suppose you have a point.

Actually, I was heading that one off at the pass rather than accusing anyone.

So far, nobody has made any unqualified blanket statements in this regard.

Daniel

 

[jarrod]

is this things still going?

good god, if you like grappling, do it. if you don't, don't. it's probably a good idea to have a basic familiarity with it but that's true of any range.

if someone doesn't think grappling has any value, i really don't care. it's just one more person unfamiliar with the range where i excel.

jf

 

[Bruno@MT]

is this things still going?
jf

Not only is it still going, but I predict it will keep on going, with both parties repeating the same thing over and over. Then the thread will die, and be resurrected in a couple of months (or years) by someone who feels compelled to add his own view point to the discussion without bringing anything new to the table. This will trigger another dozen of messages, the thread will die, etc etc...

 

[BLACK LION]

I don't understand what you are saying here. What is the social setting in which grappling, joint locks, and throws are useful?

When I think of a social setting, I think of going out to dinner with friends. I don't go out to dinner with them and then practice joint locks on them.

I think by definition, a fight or combat or self defense situation is a non-social setting. You are dealing with a hostile opponent in a hostile situation.

I guess I just don't understand the contrast you are making.

I define "Social" as everything up to the point where someone decides to injure the other person which in-turn equates to violence... wether it be a knife to the spleen or a bat to the head or breaking an elbow joint. None of these things are acceptable on a social scale. A football game with crowbars is no longer social or sport. An mma competition where "fighters" break joints and inflict trauma on the other competitior instead of submitting them or inflicting pain is clearly a violent situation which is devoid of social standards and rules of conduct.
Make sense??

 

[BLACK LION]

Black Lion,

How do you define 'grappling' when you say that it is useless outside of a social situation? Do you mean taking people to the ground and submitting them or do you mean any grappling at all?

By social situation, I assume that you mean sport, drunks at parties, and jostling for social dominance within a group where physical testing is considered acceptable (such as amongs high school boys).

Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Daniel

When I see the word grappling, I immediately make reference to styles and techniques like that in brazilian juijitsu(which I have trained in with a machado bros instructor) and yes I associate it with taking people down or standing up and "submitting" them or dominating them in that manner.

Now if one was to ask if "siezing" like that found in chin na was viable I would sing a completely different song... I believe in the siezing art and look at it as a definate less lethal solution. It focuses in different aspects though and IMO the more important ones FOR ME.

and YES... that is pretty much how I define social... basically everything outside of actual violence.

I really appreciate you asking me to help you understand my position rather than just trying to disect it and discard it as rubbish...

I respect that alot becuase it does not happen that way often.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Some of us see grappling as any form of fighting where you attempt to throw or break limbs by placing your hands on them in a manner that can not be construed as striking. I agree that BJJ's tendency to go to the ground is a sport oriented thing; BJJ practitioners would agree. Even so, ground fighting does have a place, just in case you end up there, but the overall goal should be to get off the ground