Grappling is a Waste of time

LuckyKBoxer

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
1,390
Reaction score
39
I am curious if anyone honestly believes this?
I usually hear stand up martial artists say this, and when asked if they have tried grappling of any kind, they always say NO NEVER. Whan asked if they have worked with any highly skilled grapplers of any kind to test their defenses, they respond with a NO, or someone with very limited skills, or someone from class simply playing at taking them down.
When asked if they want to test their abilities versus a takedown situation, its either a complete denial to even try with some statement of deadly skills and not wanting to hurt another person, or they accept and in my experience so far they are completely inadequate at defending themselves, and there is a huge wake up call, or more denial...
I have no interest in trying to argue with anyone about the merits of grappling, I really do not care if anyone elses version of their art is inadequate, but I am really curious though if anyone here has this attitude, and actually has some form of experience, or training that has in fact proven to themselves that grappling is indeed a waste of time?
Any comments?

I guess what I am looking for is anyone that has any form of valid information as to why a Martial Artist should not spend, or waste, time training grappling as opposed to stand up abilities alone?
 

Ironcrane

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
262
Reaction score
7
Location
Oregon
The only thing I can think of is if the soul purpose of your training is to compete in stand up only competitions. Like Boxing, or Muay Thai.
Other then that, grappling is sometimes considered to not be an ideal place to be, due to limited space, or being on concrete, and what not. But even then you'll generally hear, and be taught that you'd be better off with the skill then without it.
 

Bruno@MT

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
3,399
Reaction score
74
First of all, grapling is fun :)
But for the usefulness: try doing a roundhouse kick in a crowded situation...
When it is up close and personal, kicking and striking are much more difficult.

Also, if you ever get taken to court, eye witnesses remember that you
a) viciously kicked / beat the snot out of someone
b) held someone / shoved him / pushed him.

Even though you can seriously injure people, it is generally less visible to the bystanders who might get interviewed, depending on what happened.
 

chav buster

Yellow Belt
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
58
Reaction score
2
First of all, grapling is fun :)
But for the usefulness: try doing a roundhouse kick in a crowded situation...
When it is up close and personal, kicking and striking are much more difficult.

Also, if you ever get taken to court, eye witnesses remember that you
a) viciously kicked / beat the snot out of someone
b) held someone / shoved him / pushed him.

Even though you can seriously injure people, it is generally less visible to the bystanders who might get interviewed, depending on what happened.
this is the great thing about throwing arts like judo and wrestling. its far simpler to ko someone by throwing them on there head iwhen theres no matts then it is through strikes and to the layman it just looks like you where not trying to hurt him.
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,250
Reaction score
1,227
Location
Lives in Texas
A true MA would involve all aspects of self defense. Most people in a fight want to get you to the ground. I feel the ones that dont think that may end up there, are in for a rude awakening.
 

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
Ground work is a part of all MA and should be. Remember a true MAist learns all aspect of self defense.
 

searcher

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
3,317
Reaction score
58
Location
Kansas
Its useless, until you get to the ground. Then it is not so much of a waste. Even if you don't want to train on the ground, you had better be able to defend against it. We have seen that if you have a great takedown defense, it will help you most of the time. But there will always be that once or twice or ?? that you end up there. Don't want to be a fish out of water, do you?
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
Of course grappling is a waste of time when I can just use my Yellow Bamboo Mystic Powerz to make you fall down from 10 feet away!

:D

Ok, for real, I think that grappling, even if its mostly "Stand Up" grappling is important to work on, even if its not your focus. Knowlage of it, how it works, and some counters are probably quite important, given todays fighting climate.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,824
Reaction score
7,336
Location
Covington, WA
A true MA would involve all aspects of self defense. Most people in a fight want to get you to the ground. I feel the ones that dont think that may end up there, are in for a rude awakening.
I disagree with this. I would say that effective self defense arts involve all aspects of self defense. A true martial art, in my mind, is simply an art that teaches some actual martial skill, whether self defense related or not. Kyudo, for example, is a martial art in my opinion, because it teaches an actual martial skill. The self defense applications are, however, dubious.
 

celtic_crippler

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
3,968
Reaction score
137
Location
Airstrip One
There is no logical argument to support the statement "Grappling is a Waste of Time".

Grappling is involved in the closer ranges of combat, if you neglect it then you take the risk of being a victim of it.

'nuff said.
 
OP
LuckyKBoxer

LuckyKBoxer

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
1,390
Reaction score
39
Interesting.
I posted this on several martial arts forums and only one board actually had people who posted saying they actually thought along those lines. Unfortunately none gave any reasons that made any amount of sense. All of them are well into their advanced years as well. The phraseold dog and new tricks immediately came to mind. Personally I love Grappling, I consider myself a stand up artist, but have been training in BJJ for several years now, I hear the arguments against grappling in person alot, it never ceases to make me shake my head.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
I am curious if anyone honestly believes this?
I usually hear stand up martial artists say this, and when asked if they have tried grappling of any kind, they always say NO NEVER. Whan asked if they have worked with any highly skilled grapplers of any kind to test their defenses, they respond with a NO, or someone with very limited skills, or someone from class simply playing at taking them down.
When asked if they want to test their abilities versus a takedown situation, its either a complete denial to even try with some statement of deadly skills and not wanting to hurt another person, or they accept and in my experience so far they are completely inadequate at defending themselves, and there is a huge wake up call, or more denial...
I have no interest in trying to argue with anyone about the merits of grappling, I really do not care if anyone elses version of their art is inadequate, but I am really curious though if anyone here has this attitude, and actually has some form of experience, or training that has in fact proven to themselves that grappling is indeed a waste of time?
Any comments?

I guess what I am looking for is anyone that has any form of valid information as to why a Martial Artist should not spend, or waste, time training grappling as opposed to stand up abilities alone?

Why do people think its a waste of time? Because they usually have blinders on, and think that what they're already doing is the best and there's no need to look outside the box. This can be applied to grapplers as well in regards to learning standup.

They think that the grappling that they find in their kata and techs. is all they'll need, and IMO, that isn't enough. If you're not testing it against someone who really knows how to grapple, again, IMO, you're limiting yourself.

I don't think that its necessary to abandon your standup art and take up BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc., but its good to work with them and see how they function. If you can make your standup defense against a takedown work against them, great, then you know it'll work against anyone. But if you can't you better go back to the drawing board.

Now, some will say that you won't be fighting a Royce Gracie in the real world, and you probably won't. However, MMA is popular and wrestling is still taught in many highschools and colleges, so yes, while they may not be pro level, the odds could be pretty good that you could face someone with a grappling background.

There is so much out there to learn, IMO, you're only making yourself better by making sure that your stuff works under pressure.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
The only thing I can think of is if the soul purpose of your training is to compete in stand up only competitions. Like Boxing, or Muay Thai.
Other then that, grappling is sometimes considered to not be an ideal place to be, due to limited space, or being on concrete, and what not. But even then you'll generally hear, and be taught that you'd be better off with the skill then without it.

Good points! Of course, grappling will provide the standup person with the necessary skills to escape the bad position and safely get back to your feet.

Don't mistake this as me advocating going to the ground. I want to remain standing, but I don't kid myself into thinking that I will never stumble, trip, or get knocked down and need the skills to save my tail. :)
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
Its useless, until you get to the ground.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that. I mean, there are things that can be done standing as well. Additionally, there are a number of things that can be done from clinching range. :)
 

celtic_crippler

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
3,968
Reaction score
137
Location
Airstrip One
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that. I mean, there are things that can be done standing as well. Additionally, there are a number of things that can be done from clinching range. :)

EXACTLY!

Unfortunately, many view "grappling" as rolling around on the ground and that's not the case.

"Grappling" is no more a waste of time than "Striking." They are simply individual components of combat, of which there are more.

For some reason, that point is lost on many (grapplers and strikers alike.)
 

Aiki Lee

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
1,561
Reaction score
69
Location
DeKalb, IL
Ground work is a part of all MA and should be. Remember a true MAist learns all aspect of self defense.

Yes! 100% agreement. I personally have never heard that "grappling is pointless" or is used only by people with limited skill (like battle harded samurai?).

Such an arguement is ignorant and comical. Striking, grappling, weapons, and tactics are all important aspects of martial arts and a well rounded warrior should have access to all these skills.
 

blindsage

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
112
Location
Sacramento, CA
Should I start a new thread to discuss the fact that grappling does not mean ground work. Ground work is part of grappling but grappling is not just ground work. Judo, all types of jiu-jitsu, hapkido, all types of wrestling, chi na, shuai chiao, and many other styles are all grappling.

Some of you will say 'uhh...no ****', but there are a lot of people that think BJJ style ground work is what 'grappling' means. Clarification is needed. And yes, grappling should be a part of all styles to some degree or another, and yes some awareness specifically of ground work should also be included.

On the other hand, BJJ style fighters could use some education in stand up grappling, and probably throws. These seem to be sorely lacking in their repetoire.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
EXACTLY!

Unfortunately, many view "grappling" as rolling around on the ground and that's not the case.

"Grappling" is no more a waste of time than "Striking." They are simply individual components of combat, of which there are more.

For some reason, that point is lost on many (grapplers and strikers alike.)

Should I start a new thread to discuss the fact that grappling does not mean ground work. Ground work is part of grappling but grappling is not just ground work. Judo, all types of jiu-jitsu, hapkido, all types of wrestling, chi na, shuai chiao, and many other styles are all grappling.

Some of you will say 'uhh...no ****', but there are a lot of people that think BJJ style ground work is what 'grappling' means. Clarification is needed. And yes, grappling should be a part of all styles to some degree or another, and yes some awareness specifically of ground work should also be included.

On the other hand, BJJ style fighters could use some education in stand up grappling, and probably throws. These seem to be sorely lacking in their repetoire.

These 2 posts, in conjunction with what I said, are so very true! Its kinda like that test where you're shown a pic. and you have to say the first thing that comes to your mind. Same thing here. It makes me laugh when people hear BJJ or grappling and assume it means locking up with someone in a 30 min epic ground fighting battle. Not the case at all.
 

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
A true MA would involve all aspects of self defense.
Absolutely. I find it very strange when people in either a straight grappling art or a straight stand up art say that the other is useless or unnecessary. I have spent a long time in taekwondo, which as you know is a stand up and striking art. It has been an effective art for me in practical SD situations. The first chance I had to learn hapkido, I jumped at. I had very little grappling. Some sweeps and takedowns were about it. I have yet to need to use any of the locks or throws in a practical situation, but their usefulness is readily obvious.

I think that the mentality of loving one and disparging the other is a combination of elitism, insecurity, and cultural norms.

Elitism: My art is the most effective and I don't need anything else.

Insecurity: If I test my skills against a grappler and suck, then I'll need to take back the above statement.

Cultural norms: This may be the biggest reason.

For decades, boxing was the premier fight event in the US. Nearly everyone knows the names of the big champs, even now, and boxing has been on the decline for a solid decade at least. Hardly anyone outside of specific UFC fans and MMA participants know who the champs are in MMA.

In a room with a hundred people a solid quarter to half will know who Floyd Mayweather is. All will know who Sugaray Leonard is. Same for Hollyfield, Ali, Tyson, Forman and Frasier. If I say Ken Shamrock anywhere but on this board and amongst WWE fans, I get a lot of raised eyebrows and blank expressions. Say Kung Le instead and the WWE fans join the blank expressions.

Stand up fighting was the gold standard in terms of fighting for most of the twenieth century and still carries a greater following than MMA. Wrestling has always been looked at as a high school/collegiate sport with no real place to go but the Olympics. Pro wrestling has been looked down upon as play fighting for as long as I have been alive.

Most people in a fight want to get you to the ground.
This has never been my personal experience. I generally question this, as I have been in and seen a good number of real fights and very few have gone to the ground. No fight that I have been in after elementary school has gone to the ground.

Most people have barely adequate striking skills, let alone grappling skills, and would have no particular advantage in taking anyone to the ground unless they simply outweigh their opponent visibly enough to consider that an advantage.

Until the UFC became popular, I never heard this arguement made by anyone.

I feel the ones that don&#8217;t think that may end up there, are in for a rude awakening.
Murphy's Law: Any situation that you assume that you will not be in and/or have not trained for is, of course, the very situation that you will find yourself in.

To answer the OP, grappling is very useful. Most historical sword manuals involve an element of grappling, and I think that we can all agree that a sword is a vastly superior striking instrument to that of the foot or fist. If grappling was considered useful to a guy armed with two to three feet of sharpened metal, then imagine how much more useful it is to the unarmed.

As I stated earlier, most people have barely adequate striking skills and considerably less skill in grappling. Having any skill in grappling puts you ahead of the curve. Actual skill in striking puts you even further ahead. Substantial skill in both makes you guy or gal that "most people in a fight" wind up wishing that they had come to peaceful resolution with instead.

Daniel
 

Latest Discussions

Top