Eye jabs - an evil move?

Ceicei

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Well, hopefully, a martial artist will gain enough skill in their respective art to determine what level of force to use. The level should be sufficient to stop the threat. If the threat is life-threatening and the situation warrants the need for eye gouges, then so be it.

There is a time and a place for fly swatters and sledge-hammers.

- Ceicei
 

still learning

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Hello, In the "EYES" of the law...as martial artist we are suppose to do minimum to end any confrontations. Anything beyond that could cost us some jail time/law suit.

No two attacks on us will be the same....our reactions will be base on what we train for. What it takes to end the fights will all differ....some people can take alot hits and kicks before going down?

A rip or poke to the eyes may not end the attacks on you..but may provide some time to do the next moves to end the conflict.

Keep an open eye on this.....Aloha
 

SFC JeffJ

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I agree with Flatlander, we shouldn't be getting in "fights".

As to whether or not it's evil, is a hammer evil? It's just another tool like a gun, knife, kick, or armbar. Used approprately, it's wonderful.

Jeff
 

Hand Sword

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I look at eye jabs as just one of many tools we are taught. A chop to the throat is evil too. All the strikes are done with bad intentions for real, so one could say they are all evil. Keep them in the arsenal, and use them when the situation calls for it.
 

MJS

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thescottishdude said:
I noticed that alot of martial artists must not have any principles when it comes to learning and using eye jabs.

In my opinion, you should never use eye jabs, EVER! They're completely evil. You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.

IMHO, the amount of force you're using should equal what they're doing. If someone simply pushes you, I can't justify an arm break. Now, if they're coming at you with a knife, then yes, I can see that. This is a good reference as to what I'm talking about.

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/rbma/use_of_force.html

I'm not against the teaching of them, as they are a part of martial arts. I just don't think anyone should condone or hype up their use in fights (unlike the last martial arts nesletter I just read).

Anyone else agree? Surely you should never do something like that in a fist fight unless your attacker has a kinfe or a gun and you get an oppertunity?

Keep in mind that there are other things besides eye jabs, that we have in our arsenal, that can be just as brutal. Nothing wrong with training these areas, but as I said above, knowing when to use them is important.


I still don't think you should be extensivlytrained in them, yes yo should know what they are and how to use them but they shouldn't really be taught as moves you'd likly use.

Why not?

punching, kicking, wrestling, arm locks etc are more than effective in a rape situation or any fight really

Punching: sure
Kicking: sure
Wrestling: I wouldn't suggest trying to submit the person, but instead, getting an escape from the ground, get back to your feet, and leave the area.
Arm locks: Keep in mind, the more difficult the move, unless the person trains it extensively, it'll be hard for them to apply. Most SD courses for women, should be geared to simple, effective moves, not something too indepth.

Mike
 

bushidomartialarts

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i say go for it.

if you get into a fight with somebody, do everything you can to kill them.

if you're not comfortable using every weapon at your disposal to destroy that person, then you shouldn't be in a fight. you should be talking, or drinking with them, or leaving.
 

Rich Parsons

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beau_safken said:
Try all the eye jabs you want on me...Defense is easy. Extend hand in front of face... Learned it from the 3 stooges bud.

There is one move called opening the gate.... Stick finger in eye, hook and pull the eye out. As its dangling on the cheek little slap on the face to complete the opening of the gate.

Not cool in sparring but you dont go into battle with a wiffle ball bat.... Good to know but not really all the useful in a general sense.


I used it for control issue with people. Now of course for those who do not feel pain for the drug of choice they are on, then it does nothing for control. You have to do other techniques.
 

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Hello. If going for the eye attacks is evil? What is not consider evil?

You must believe there is something like a fair fight? What is it?

The people I know...will pound you,kick,stomp you on the ground, non-stop, use anything around them to continune the attack..till you cannot move.

Getting into a real street fight...the other person goal is to hurt you as much as he can.....because if you can still stand back up...he will attack you....again...very rare these guys give up.

There are people out there who fight like this...and experience at it.

If you try to fight fair (you style)....against most street fighters who will do/use anything to win(till you are out).....

Those with strong princples...DO NOT GET INTO FIGHTS...because they learn..awareness, trust there instincts not to be in a dangerous place. and will avoid getting into a fight (Verbal Judo).

and if they do...they want to end it as quickly as posssible....whatever it takes....

I am not trying to be disagreeable here....just trying to let you know..there is NO SUCH THING AS A FAIR FIGHT. Eyes are very good tarkets. and is not an evil strike....Intentional Killing is evil..Aloha

Self-defense techniqiue...can kill....cause permanent damages...most of us want to avoid any fights... if we get into one,do as little harm as possible... In life and deaths situtions...? ...Aloha
 

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Okay, so what I'm hearing is that not only are eye jabs/gouges evil, they're also less effective than punches, kicks, and grappling moves? I'm gonna call bulls*** on this one...

No, attacks to vital targets (eyes, throat, knees, groin, etc.) should not be used in "fights." However, as others have said, you shouldn't be getting into fights (mutual combat between idiots with ego problems). Unless you work in a profession that makes physical confrontations more common (LEO, bouncer, security, etc.) if you get into a lot of fights you need to examine your behavior/conduct and figure out what needs to change so that you don't get into a lot of fights.

Now, back to the issue of self-defense. If you are targeted as the victim of a violent crime (rape, robbery, kidnapping, etc.) you do whatever it takes to make sure that you're the one that walks away. It doesn't matter if that "whatever" includes gouging their eyes, using a weapon, or tearing their throat out with your teeth if need be.
 

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There are no evil moves, just evil people!
icon12.gif
 

KenpoTex

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So, do you have any reasons other than personal bias as to why attacking the eyes is less effective or inadvisable? You've made some pretty strong statements regarding the use of eye attacks but have yet to give any solid reasons for why they shouldn't be used (other than the questionable "moral" issue).

Let's talk a little about the effectiveness of eye jabs/gouges. First, if someone gave you the choice of getting punched in the jaw at full force or of having them grab you by the sides of the head and jam one or both of their thumbs into your eyes, which would you choose? I kinda doubt that anyone would honestly choose to be blinded because someone put their fingers, up to the joints, in their eye. But hey, that's just me.

Second, it is instinctive for humans to protect their eyes. If you hit someone in the eye, even accidently, what happens? If you're like anyone I've ever seen, myself included, your eyes slam shut, your hands instinctively come up to shield your eyes against further damage, and for that instant, you forget about anything except protecting your eyes. Eye attacks may or may not end the struggle instantly (and they have a good chance of doing just that) but they will distract, cause pain, and create an opening for something else.
 

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No such thing as an evil technique. Rather, it's the intent behind the technique, that can be considered "good" or "evil."

For example, if someone is having a MMA-style match, and tries to fingerpoke the other guy in the eye so that he can partially blind him, then that's certainly an "evil" intent. The fight is controlled, and considered sport / fair competition, and such things do not belong there. The goal of each fighter is to put the other guy down or to make him submit, but that's it.

If someone is fighting for his life, where an attacker (or multiple attackers) has the intent to criminally cause bodily harm, then using a poke to the eyes is fair game, as far as I am concerned. If someone shows a disregard for my well-being in a criminal manner, then I will extend the same "courtesy" and use the best methods available to stop him. If this means using one knuckle strikes to the throat, so be it. If this means using my trusty Spyderco knife, then so be it. If it means using firearms, then that's what I'll do in order to survive the encounter.

Could there be consequences of such actions? Certainly. In this day and age, the bad guy (or his family) will probably try to take me to court. Still, I'll be happy at having to go to court, over not being alive to face the music. The old adage of "It is better to be judged by twelve, than to be carried by six" rings ever so true.
 

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kenpotex said:
Okay, so what I'm hearing is that not only are eye jabs/gouges evil, they're also less effective than punches, kicks, and grappling moves? I'm gonna call bulls*** on this one...

No, attacks to vital targets (eyes, throat, knees, groin, etc.) should not be used in "fights." However, as others have said, you shouldn't be getting into fights (mutual combat between idiots with ego problems). Unless you work in a profession that makes physical confrontations more common (LEO, bouncer, security, etc.) if you get into a lot of fights you need to examine your behavior/conduct and figure out what needs to change so that you don't get into a lot of fights.

Now, back to the issue of self-defense. If you are targeted as the victim of a violent crime (rape, robbery, kidnapping, etc.) you do whatever it takes to make sure that you're the one that walks away. It doesn't matter if that "whatever" includes gouging their eyes, using a weapon, or tearing their throat out with your teeth if need be.


I did not mean to imply that Eye Gouges were not effective or destructive. Just not the best under certain conditions for people who feel no pain for control. It still destroys their eye.
 

KenpoTex

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Rich Parsons said:
I did not mean to imply that Eye Gouges were not effective or destructive. Just not the best under certain conditions for people who feel no pain for control. It still destroys their eye.
my post wasn't directed at you. I understand your point that they may not always work. If there was one magic technique that worked all the time, we'd all be wasting our time spending years in training. My point was just that in most situations, attacking the eyes can be extrememly effective.
 

James Patrick

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I haven't read all the replies yet, but I can't believe that this is open for debate!

Eye gauges are incredably effective; so much so that they are considered lethal force here is Michigan (I am pretty sure, but I will double check). And, if someone has made the conscious decision to hurt you, and your life hangs in the balance, then I think all "morality" is out the window. Why anyone would advocate not practicing or doing this life saving tool is beyond my comprehension!

James
 

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If I was unable to walk/ talk my way out of a confrontation that someone else started and they escalated to the point I felt in danger then its open season... thumb/ fingers to the eye, knee to groin or grab ahold of the nose or lips with my teeth I'd do what it takes to end things quickly and in my favor.
 
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thescottishdude

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I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial.

essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them.

doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.
 

SFC JeffJ

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thescottishdude said:
I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial.

essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them.

doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.

Why would you be getting into "a simple fist fight" in the first place? If I'm attacked, I have to assume for my own safety that they are serious about doing me bodily harm. If you want to fight, go box or do some nhb fighting in the ring.

Jeff
 
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