Crimials are training

[CuongNhuka]

Heres a breif bio about myself, it explains why I hangout in this area and why I'm fascinated by Eagle Claw and Jui Jitsu.

Freshman year in high school someone was messing with my stuff in gym. Take it out of my binder and hide it. Then leave it for me to find. I didn't Care. I didin't have really anything in it of value. One day some genious took every thing out of one pocket of my binder and spilled it out all over the end of the aisle. I gathered it up and put it back and changed. Then I look through what was there and was not. My art not book was MIA. One of the few things i cared about.
I rechecked, then went back to were it was, and looked around. It was no were to be found. So I stood up on the bench and shouted "so weres my ********** note book". Some giggles, and I shouted it again. Then some one says "Hay is it green? Because if it is, it's back here and people keep stepping on it." It was, so I looked.
Some kid had it. I'd heard that this kid is some hard core gangester (in and out of jail, does drugs, that sorta thing). He's holding it out for me, so I'm thinking he's not so bad. Then he puts it behaind his back and says "If you want it. Come and get it". I went and got it. (upper cut to the solar plexus). He dropped it and ran, I thought he was going to get freinds, or give himself some more room, so I through a kick to his head. Keep him running yah know?
Turns out he already dropped it and just kept on running. I let him go and grabbed my note book and put it back. Turns out Mr. Kevin Marcos, even though he's such a shineing example of human desencey, has more weight then me when it comes to incident reports. I got charged with assault in the thrid degree (what ever the crud that means) and got a year of probation and expelled. He got butkis.

Skip ahead three months and I'm in what my school district calls "the alternitive school", I call the seventh ring of the Infreno. In my class of 45, 22 claimed to be in gang, 44 were there for a violent offense (the last grabbed a girl's .... well, you get it). I had to wait for the bus with a couple people I wouldn't trust with timex (cheap rolex knock off). I was already doing Cuong Nhu, so I picked up a copy of any book on Jui Jitsu or Eagle Claw I could find (both are big into pressure points, restraining, conrtolling and lethal techniques).
My new school has a heavy gang problem, and I have a heavy problem with those in gangs. So I still do alot of resaerch into Jui Jitsu and Eagle Claw. I'm also constanly armed with weapons that are legal (top of the list is a silver tonque and fists that work well as anvils.)

So there yah go. I had a place to go with this.... what was it.... it'll come to me later.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Now i remember, my comments on the following remarks:
1. to jks9199 - See thats the scary thing. There is a line from "Gangs of New York" that comes to mind. "100 Irish come to these shoars a day. Thats almost a thousand a week. If we get all of them in, we ain't got a gang. We got an army". some gangs seem to building just that. An army. But heres the really scary thing. If you add up every one in a gang, who is more loyal to a gang then the U.S, and anyone who has been to jail for drugs/violence and you don't have a gang. You have an army. A massive army.
Heres the part that could turn hair white, they might very well out number the U.S. Armed Forces, be tacticlly equal to the U.S. Armed forces, and be Physically Superior to the U.S. Armed Forces. They're also more probably more motivated then the Armed Forces (army for country, gangsters for suvival). If you get that army, and motivate them to do something it's done. If you motivate them to invade China, China becomes one giant piece of gang territory in a month.
They've been more or less breed to be fighters. It's alsmot in there genes, it's who they are. It's what they are. There are two reasons why people can sleep at night inspite of this fact. One, gangs are normally unorganized, spend most of there time fighting each other, and as far as I'm aware non of them have stollen any tanks, planes, or nuclear devices. And if that isn't the reason, it's because they're stupid.

Kachi - True. But I know a kid that trained with a for awhile, quite and came back after two years of lifting weights. Now he's fast as, well, a gun shot. Pore technique, but deamonic speed and strength.

wild bill - Why I don't like weapons. They're too easy to be used against you. That also goes to my whole, better motivated then the army. And I agree with that last post. That's why I don't like it when people use self defense as a reason to train. You may, or you may not be able. But what is your definition of a "modern practicale art"?

Robert Lee - BINGO!!!!! People normally think it's all about rage, or technique, or conditioning. It's not. It's about heart. It starts and ends with heart.

 

[MJS]

I've done this one a few times before, each suit is a different type of push up and whatever number is on the card that's how many you do. It's one hell of a workout and if these guys in prison doing this regularly along with other workouts they'd be strong as all hell.

Never thought about matching the number of pushups with the number shown on the card. Yes, doing that would certainly get one in shape real fast.

Still i'm sure that a prisoners technique wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as someone who is able to train regularly at a dojo and they wouldn't have access to the variety and range of techniques, defences, kata, feedback, etc... that we have. The prisoners wouldn't be able to train all day every day and if they're just working out then that shouldn't to much of a problem if you can apply your defence techniques correctly.

This is true to a certain point, but alot of it is going to come down to how the MAist trains.

 

[jks9199]

I've done this one a few times before, each suit is a different type of push up and whatever number is on the card that's how many you do. It's one hell of a workout and if these guys in prison doing this regularly along with other workouts they'd be strong as all hell.

Still i'm sure that a prisoners technique wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as someone who is able to train regularly at a dojo and they wouldn't have access to the variety and range of techniques, defences, kata, feedback, etc... that we have. The prisoners wouldn't be able to train all day every day and if they're just working out then that shouldn't to much of a problem if you can apply your defence techniques correctly.

The sad truth is that some of those criminals in jail are held to higher standards of physical training and practice than most of us are willing to do. I've seen multiple videos from different prisons showing prison gangs leading calisthenics and training sessions. And the inmates are motivated... Bubba makes sure of that.

And, when it comes to an attack -- skill often isn't a major issue. They don't need 200 different punches or even 10... They just need ONE that they've worked to perfection, and practiced using in a surprise attack on an unsuspecting victim. In my martial art we have a saying that's equally applicable to any discussion that gets into the "they don't have the number of techniques or skills" issue. It goes like this:
One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings.

 

[kachi]

Wild Bill - I've obviously under-estimated the abilities of an inmate, probably due to the fact that i've never seen one in action. And I don't know about other people but in a life or death situation I've got an arsenal of techniques that I'd be willing to use. I am willing to do anything (that is necessary) to survive.

CuongNhuka - You say it's all about heart, but what good is the drive if you have don't have the proper skill to back it up? Both people in a fight are gonna have the drive and determination to win, but if you don't know how to fight you've got nothing. After a bit of thinking, I realised that everything is just as important as the next. With no heart, you don't have the drive to win. With no skill, your probably not gonna be able to hold your own. Without conditioning... Well you get the idea.

jks9199 - The sayin "One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings" is true but that is implying that the other person doesn't have good technique. Most martial artists I know do have good technique and they know how to use it too.... I don't know about others but I know in my case I train my techniques so i'm as good as I can be, then I train some more. Wouldn't an arsenal of well developed attacks be so much more effective than one perfect attacks?.. It's not only prisoners that know dirty attacks you know?

 

[MJS]

jks9199 - The sayin "One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings" is true but that is implying that the other person doesn't have good technique. Most martial artists I know do have good technique and they know how to use it too.... I don't know about others but I know in my case I train my techniques so i'm as good as I can be, then I train some more. Wouldn't an arsenal of well developed attacks be so much more effective than one perfect attacks?.. It's not only prisoners that know dirty attacks you know?

Yes, you're making some good points here. I don't want to speak for jks9199, but as far as what I was saying goes, I'll expand a bit further. A MAist can have some fantastic technique, but alot is going to come down to how they train. Are their training sessions 'alive' and is there active resistance? One could have fantastic tech. in the air, but are they going to be able to pull off the same moves when someone is really trying to knock their head off?

I'm not saying this is how you're training, as I have never seen you train. If you're saying that you're training to degend against these types of attacks, then yes, I'd agree with what you're saying, however, I wouldn't put every MAist into the same group.

Mike

 

[kachi]

Not everything can be tested with a resisting partner...You can only really do resistance training with locks and grappling type techniques. Those that have a greater majority of striking techniques aren't going to be able to train resistance unless it's competition style, which almost always has rules and doesn't really reflect a real life situation.

I don't think you should start doubting martial arts that don't train in resistance. It doesn't mean they don't work. I'm not saying that it will work 100% of the time becuse that really depends on the person. Martial Arts were designed as a way of defending yourself practically in real life attack situations and that's what they do. The only real way to test your Martial Art's effectiveness is to be in a fight and that's one way I know that my MA works i've also heard many stories from members in our style about how they overcame attackers... and we don't use reistance training.

 

[MJS]

Not everything can be tested with a resisting partner...You can only really do resistance training with locks and grappling type techniques. Those that have a greater majority of striking techniques aren't going to be able to train resistance unless it's competition style, which almost always has rules and doesn't really reflect a real life situation.

Actually, I beg to differ. Resistance/aliveness can be trained with strikes as well. I'll give two examples. 1) When you're partner punches at you, is he stopping far enough away that you really don't even have to bock, or is he really trying to hit you? What good is the training going to be if the punch never reaches you? If that type of training is done all the time, its going to give a false impression, and you're going to be in for a rude awakening when someone on the street throws a punch and they're really trying to make contact.

2) After the punch is thrown, is the person standing there, like a statue, while you execute your counter moves? Or is he throwing more strikes, moving, etc.?

I was running thru some of my Kenpo techs. with my inst. last week, and we worked on this very same thing.

I don't think you should start doubting martial arts that don't train in resistance. It doesn't mean they don't work. I'm not saying that it will work 100% of the time becuse that really depends on the person. Martial Arts were designed as a way of defending yourself practically in real life attack situations and that's what they do. The only real way to test your Martial Art's effectiveness is to be in a fight and I've heard many stories from members in our style and that's how I know that it works... and we don't use reistance training.

Perhaps I'm not following you here. If you never experience resistance during training, whats going to happen when you need to use your skills to save your life and the person is giving resistance?? In addition, the use of protective gear and scenario drills will make a big difference in your training.

 

[CuongNhuka]

CuongNhuka - You say it's all about heart, but what good is the drive if you have don't have the proper skill to back it up?

Allow me to explain my point a little further. Lets say (hypotheticly) you're walking down the street and see some one getting beaten up by (say), four people. Heart is that thing that say's "this isn't right". Heart is that thing that says "if I don't do something, he'll die". Heart is that thing that drives you into the melee. Your right, though, both people in a fight want to win. If they didn't, they wouldn't be there. Simple as that.
But heart is somehting special. It's not just a desire to win. It rarely is. Heart is a desire to push on against unbeateable odds, just to show you can. If your fat and out of shape, but are dtermined to save that guy, heart is the thing that will allow that fat guy to win. Heart will push him to fight on, even when his lungs say enough and are breathing in smoke. Heart will push him to keep fighting when his heart is pumping battery acid (no pun intened). When his brain say "Enough! I cann't keep fighting! I cann't keep up! My bones are breaking! My muscles are shreding! Enough!"
His heart is what is saying "I cann't stop! I have to keep fighting! If I don't he will die! It is fight, or nothing!"
Without heart, nothing matters. You could have perfected 1,000 techniques, and you will lose with no heart. You could bench press your own body weight 300 times, squat 10 times your body weight 500 times, and run 80 miles in an hour. But with no heart, it doesn't matter. You could be both of those, but with no heart, it still doesn't matter. You will lose.

Anouther example is armys. Great commanders all realize something, it all has to do with heart. They would rather have an army of 100 against an army of 1,000. There army could be under feed, against a fat and happy force. There army could be under trained, aginst a highly trained one. And if the commander of the small force could motivate his troops to fight on, to have faith in him (and to have faith in each other) then they will win. A motivated force will win out aginst a force that is not as motivated, even if everything says the motivated force should lose.

Also, I said it starts and ends with heart. I already explained how it ends with heart. But it begins with heart too. You entered combat to save that guy, and the guys attacking him did it because of what is in there heart.

It does truelly begin and end with heart!

 

[jks9199]

jks9199 - The sayin "One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings" is true but that is implying that the other person doesn't have good technique. Most martial artists I know do have good technique and they know how to use it too.... I don't know about others but I know in my case I train my techniques so i'm as good as I can be, then I train some more. Wouldn't an arsenal of well developed attacks be so much more effective than one perfect attacks?.. It's not only prisoners that know dirty attacks you know?

First -- you're taking my statement, and an adage I qouted, out of context. I was responding to the idea that a martial artist is typically going to be more skilled than a criminal, and know more. More doesn't mean better -- and assuming an enemy is unskilled is never a wise choice. That ex-con on the street (or the street thug he trained in their "clubhouse") may not know all the kicks of tae kwon do or the 40 or so throws of judo -- but what he does know, he very likely knows very well. And what he does know has the virtue of recent proof of real-life effectiveness; the stuff that didn't work well doesn't make it into the prison yard.

You ask if a wider arsenal doesn't grant some form of superiority over a limited arsenal. Have you ever watched a student with only a few months training defend himself effectively in a sparring match against senior students with a much wider arsenal? Have you ever watched an experienced and skilled martial artist freeze during sparring because they're stuck and just can't sort out their options in time? Under pressure, the mind will go blank. And if you have too many things to sort through -- it'll jam. We're seeing this more and more in law enforcement; the typical cop has so many things on his belt to use that he can get stuck trying to figure out which one to use in a given situation! (My full duty belt includes a firearm, an impact weapon, pepper spray, as well as empty hands. The common force continuum models currently recognize something like 9 different categories of force options, such as presence, verbal control, impact weapons, and lethal force; some cops actually have two or more options within a similar category.)

But to move beyond that, the simple truth is that very few people that call themselves martial artists are really prepared for the realities of hand-to-hand combat with someone that's really out to hurt them. With well over a decade of martial arts training, with a strong focus on reality, several encounters with fleeing suspects doing retail security, and a police academy behind me -- I still froze the first time I encountered a combative suspect in real life. And that was even though I'd fought, scrapped, "wrassled" and so on growing up, too, so being hurt or in a fight wasn't a new scenario for me. And despite reacting smoothly and without hesitation in training scenarios in the academy. I've seen others freeze, too, even with backgrounds that you'd think would prevent it from happening. So there's something different going on...

I'm not criticizing anyone's training or preparation when I say this. I'm simply stating a fact. It takes a significant shift in most people's mental processes to handle real violence directed at them. In the past, it was actually quite common to find that MOST soldiers on a battlefield didn't actually fire their weapons, and of those who did -- many did not fire at an opponent. (David Grossman, a retired US Army colonel, has been one of the pioneers of research into this; I highly recommend his work, especially On Killing.) And facing someone who has made that mental leap to harm another person is indescribably, ineffably, unbelievably different than it is to face someone in a ring, or in a sparring exercise, or even in pretty realistic training scenarios. I hope you've never been there -- and I hope you never are, because I don't want anyone to get hurt. And in that situation -- someone WILL almost inevitably get hurt; hopefully, your training has prepared you well enough to make sure that it's the other guy.

 

[jks9199]

Actually, I beg to differ. Resistance/aliveness can be trained with strikes as well. I'll give two examples. 1) When you're partner punches at you, is he stopping far enough away that you really don't even have to bock, or is he really trying to hit you? What good is the training going to be if the punch never reaches you? If that type of training is done all the time, its going to give a false impression, and you're going to be in for a rude awakening when someone on the street throws a punch and they're really trying to make contact.

2) After the punch is thrown, is the person standing there, like a statue, while you execute your counter moves? Or is he throwing more strikes, moving, etc.?

I was running thru some of my Kenpo techs. with my inst. last week, and we worked on this very same thing.

This came up in a different thread elsewhere on MT recently. (Under General Martial Arts Talk, the thread title is "A leasson well learnt...beginners learn as well")

If your goal is realistic defensive training, your partner has to (eventually) throw strikes, apply holds, or try to throw you in ways that will place you in danger of being hit, held or thrown. And in danger of being hurt when that happens. I qualify it with "eventually" because you don't start the first time you learn a new technique at full speed and power -- but after a few repitions, the speed, focus and intensity should be increasing. And the range should always be realistically close. I've seen way too many people pat themselves on the back for how well they do something in class, with a partner who moved slowly, and was never really in range to hit them or didn't really try to hold them.

 

[MJS]

This came up in a different thread elsewhere on MT recently. (Under General Martial Arts Talk, the thread title is "A leasson well learnt...beginners learn as well")

If your goal is realistic defensive training, your partner has to (eventually) throw strikes, apply holds, or try to throw you in ways that will place you in danger of being hit, held or thrown. And in danger of being hurt when that happens. I qualify it with "eventually" because you don't start the first time you learn a new technique at full speed and power -- but after a few repitions, the speed, focus and intensity should be increasing. And the range should always be realistically close. I've seen way too many people pat themselves on the back for how well they do something in class, with a partner who moved slowly, and was never really in range to hit them or didn't really try to hold them.

Agreed. My appologies if I gave the wrong impression. Many times, people will blaze thru a movement, but everything was done sloppy, with no quality in it. Starting off slow, working the fine points and gradually working your way up is a much better route.

Mike

 

[wade]

OK, look at my picture, yep, that's really me. Hi, I'm a biker and I've been in a couple very small altercations. I'm a very firm believer in peace and brother hood and turning the other cheek, OK, the last only if you are going into a spinning technique while doing it. I've given demonstrations on bike runs and worked with a few individuals and let me tell you they were very focused on what I was teaching. The tend to ask a lot of questions and are more than willing to go to the ground with you to see if a technique is really effective. If you are not willing to hurt them or be hurt by them the technique ain't gonna work cause they will fight you to the end. If you are gonna practice self defense make it hard fast and dirty, it's actually a lot of fun...................I gotta admit all the training I've had over the years makes it possible. It doesn't make me superman, but it does give me an edge.

 

[kachi]

I'll give two examples. 1) When you're partner punches at you, is he stopping far enough away that you really don't even have to bock, or is he really trying to hit you?

2) After the punch is thrown, is the person standing there, like a statue, while you execute your counter moves? Or is he throwing more strikes, moving, etc.?

OK, I didn't really understand what you meant by 'aliveness' training. I stand by my opinion though because I wouldn't consider those as resistance training. We always train in the first way you mentioned, I assumed everyone would (my bad), but the second one has never even crossed my mind before. Perhaps I'll have to talk to my sensei and give it a try.

Allow me to explain my point a little further. Lets say (hypotheticly) you're walking down the street and see some one getting beaten up by (say), four people. Heart is that thing that say's "this isn't right". Heart is that thing that says "if I don't do something, he'll die". Heart is that thing that drives you into the melee. Your right, though, both people in a fight want to win. If they didn't, they wouldn't be there. Simple as that.
But heart is somehting special. It's not just a desire to win. It rarely is. Heart is a desire to push on against unbeateable odds, just to show you can.

Ok, i'm glad you explained that further... I understand a bit more what your saying now, but I still think that no matter how much you want to win and push on, no matter how much you want to survive, you'll be bounded buy your physical limitations. You may be 'pushing on' but if you can't do anything usefull, what good is it?.. The chances are your just going to get beaten down by the person with the superior skills, drive and conditioning. I also don't think 'heart' is something you can train and develop, is it? It's just something your born with... And if this is the case and if "it's all about heart" than who ever naturally has more heart is going to come out on top regardless of size, skill, experience, condition, etc... yeah? I don't like the idea that a 20 year veteran of Martial Arts would loose to someone just because doesn't have heart.

Under pressure, the mind will go blank. And if you have too many things to sort through -- it'll jam.

I was under the impression that when the mind goes blank, that was due to the adrenaline rush caused by an overwhelment of fear. When your attacked you shouldn't stand there going through every technique you know, you just react (provided your don't freeze) through what you have been taught. Which comes back to MJS's statement about how you train.

That ex-con on the street (or the street thug he trained in their "clubhouse") may not know all the kicks of tae kwon do or the 40 or so throws of judo -- but what he does know, he very likely knows very well. And what he does know has the virtue of recent proof of real-life effectiveness.

But the Martial Artist does know the moves and they would know them very well, unless of course they're new to the Arts. Martial Arts have been tested in real-life situations and it works, you know that. I'm not saying that the prisoner is inneffective with his techniques but the Martial Artist will be effective as well and also have a wider variety of options.

I'll just point out that i'm open to ideas and opinions ad that this is just my opinion. I could be wrong and i'll accept it if I am.

 

[Drac]

OK, look at my picture, yep, that's really me. Hi, I'm a biker and I've been in a couple very small altercations

Now you can't laugh but I learn a whole lot about hold my temper and tounge when I was a "prospect"...It's helped me MANY times...Sorry off topic...

 

[MJS]

OK, I didn't really understand what you meant by 'aliveness' training. I stand by my opinion though because I wouldn't consider those as resistance training. We always train in the first way you mentioned, I assumed everyone would (my bad), but the second one has never even crossed my mind before. Perhaps I'll have to talk to my sensei and give it a try.

Just so I'm understanding you better, what is your definition of aliveness? When you say this:

We always train in the first way you mentioned, I assumed everyone would

I'm assuming that you're talking about throwing the strikes to make contact and not stop far enough so the defender doesn't even have to move?

 

[kachi]

Just so I'm understanding you better, what is your definition of aliveness?

It's sort of hard to describe being that i've never really used the term... I get the general idea... how about you tell me your definition so I get a better idea. Thanks

I'm assuming that you're talking about throwing the strikes to make contact and not stop far enough so the defender doesn't even have to move?

Yeah, if we don't move or deflect an attack we cop it in the mouth... It happens all the time to the begginers but they soon learn.

 

[MJS]

It's sort of hard to describe being that i've never really used the term... I get the general idea... how about you tell me your definition so I get a better idea. Thanks

Well, I think I gave some pretty good examples back in a post on page 2. Perhaps you can explain, using the term that you're familiar with. Aliveness and resistance can be added to all aspects of training. Once a technique is learned, progressive resistance should be added. If I'm working a wrist grab defense with someone, in the beginning, I left them perform the moves, and make corrections along the way. Gradually, once they're getting the feel of the technique, I'm not going to simply stand there, but instead, fight them a little. I may also start to pull or push them. By doing this, its making them adapt, its making them think. I'm not making it easy because if they need to use this tech. to save their life, I don't want them to think, "Gee, it worked in the dojo, why isnt it working now?"

This link will give you a better idea as well.

 

[jks9199]

I was under the impression that when the mind goes blank, that was due to the adrenaline rush caused by an overwhelment of fear. When your attacked you shouldn't stand there going through every technique you know, you just react (provided your don't freeze) through what you have been taught. Which comes back to MJS's statement about how you train.

There are many factors that figure into the effects of pressure on the mind. Parasympathetic nervous arousal is one of them -- but not the only one, and fear is only part of that arousal. Look at this another way; have you ever heard of someone staring into a closet full of clothes only to say "I've got nothing to wear" or staring at a pantry full of food, but unable to find anything to eat? Even once you get past initial responses of fight/flight/freeze, there can be so many things running through your mind that you jam up on which to do.

But the Martial Artist does know the moves and they would know them very well, unless of course they're new to the Arts. Martial Arts have been tested in real-life situations and it works, you know that. I'm not saying that the prisoner is inneffective with his techniques but the Martial Artist will be effective as well and also have a wider variety of options.

I'll just point out that i'm open to ideas and opinions ad that this is just my opinion. I could be wrong and i'll accept it if I am.

You're still stuck on the idea of quantity and assuming that more is better. Quantity is not always better, or there would be no need for military special forces or spy agencies. We'd just dump hundreds of thousands of soldiers into every attack. Quantity isn't better, or we'd be teaching recruits in police academies hundreds of defensive tactics techniques, instead of around 15, maybe less. (I'm not suggesting that more is never better!) Martial arts hobbyists may know and learn literally thousands of techniques as they train; realistically, they're only practicing a few dozen, perhaps. Judo was condensed from hundreds of jujutsu techniques, and judo has been proven time and time again to be a very effective self-defense tool.

Instead, I'm focusing on the simple fact that the ex-con has probably used that technique for real before, that he may have trained it every bit as much and as intently as the martial artist did -- or even more so, and that he hasn't been distracted by learning 9 other approaches to the problem, so he's studied that one much more thoroughly.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ok, i'm glad you explained that further... I understand a bit more what your saying now, but I still think that no matter how much you want to win and push on, no matter how much you want to survive, you'll be bounded buy your physical limitations. You may be 'pushing on' but if you can't do anything usefull, what good is it?.. The chances are your just going to get beaten down by the person with the superior skills, drive and conditioning. I also don't think 'heart' is something you can train and develop, is it? It's just something your born with... And if this is the case and if "it's all about heart" than who ever naturally has more heart is going to come out on top regardless of size, skill, experience, condition, etc... yeah? I don't like the idea that a 20 year veteran of Martial Arts would loose to someone just because doesn't have heart.

In my post I also put that if you have "no heart". If it comes down to people who both have heart, then it is who ever has better conditioning and has better technique. But I think you're starting to get what I mean.