Sport Fighting & Self Defense

[jarrod]

i see a fair amout of self-defense oriented martial artists on this forum who speak disparingingly of sport fighting arts. this is a shame, because i think that while you can be adequately prepared for most SD situations without participating in sport fighting, sport fighting can be a valuable training aid.

let's examine boxing for instance, a sport i enjoy. while training this sport, i've landed hundreds, maybe thousands of jabs on fully uncooperative opponents. i've landed them on smaller faster people, & bigger stronger people. i've landed jabs moving forward, backwards, & circling. i don't have a perfect jab, but i know what it takes to put my fist in someone's face with enough force to make them pause.

once you can do this, an eye gouge isn't a difficult adaptation to make. instead of making a fist right before impact, you fan out your fingers & keep them fairly relaxed so that they slide into the eye sockets. you simply take the timing & technical skill you developed in a combat sport, slightly modify it, & you have a perfectly viable self defense technique. most sport striking techniques can be similarly modified. instead of push kicking in the torso, target the groin. instead of throwing a hook to the head, aim for the side of the neck, etc.

now let's take a look at grappling. obviously, the ground is not the ideal place to be in most self-defense situations. nevertheless, to paraphrase a famous saying, grappling happens. watch any boxing match, & count how many times the ref splits up the boxers from clinching. it's the most natural reaction in the world to take a punch, & grab the guy who hit you so he can't immediately hit you agian. from the clinch it can be a short trip to the ground, especially if the ground is icy, or there are obstacles to trip over, whatever. once your there, you should know how to get up. failing that, you should now how to win.

one prevelant concept that somewhat irritates me is the idea that grapplers are somehow magically prohibited from using eye gouges, biting, groin attacks, or what have you. on more than occassion i've been asked "what are you going to do when you go to mount somebody & they grab your groin?" well, i'd most likely bury my thumbs in their eyes. i'd grab a nearby improvised weapon & bash them unconsious. i would do whatever it took to prevent or stop their groin attack, & i certainly wouldn't expect them to let go just because i stood up in pain. i'd also hope like hell that i wasn't wearing my kilt!

in short, a grappler has all the tools available to any other martial artist, along with the advantage of position & ground awareness. meaning, while attacking the eyes, groin, or throat, he won't overextend his arm, expose his neck, or make any of the other mistakes that can cost you a grappling match. or in this case, cost you the upperhand in a possibly life threatening encounter.

what's more, sport fighting also helps you to develop all sorts of attributes necessary to survive self defence scenarios: strength, conditioning, control during stress, calm during aggresive physical contact, & perhaps most importantly, determination. so if sport fighting is not your flavor, that is fine. i have many friends who cannot or do not participate in sport martial arts who i am confident could handle themselves when they had to. but to believe that sport fighting & self-defense skills are not complimentary is, in my opinion, a great mistake.

respectfully,

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sport fighting is great....I train with a group of guys training for MMA and Muay Thai (i'm too damn old to compete in that realm!) and it is great training for the street.....and many of the techniques transfer directly to self-defense with minor modification.

The only problem with strictly focusing on MMA and other sport fighting for self-defense is that there is a difference between the street and the ring, less because of the individual techniques, and more in how they are applied. Grappling works, but focusing on grappling with an opponent in the street as though it were the ring can be dangerous, as, unlike the ring, where the ref and security keep his friends out, being on the ground in a bar opens one up to kicks, beer bottles, pool cues, etc, from his friends and just innocent by-standers.......things never encountered or trained for in the sport environment.

Weapons are another element. If one trains strictly for the ring, and in a street altercation shoots to a grappling movie......only to find out he didn't see the guy had a knife, that can create problems.

So, again, the difference isn't technique, it's focus and mind-set......the mind-set to get in the ring really IS different than the mind-set one has to develop in a street fight......for one thing, fighting dirt in the ring is 'bad'......fighting dirty in the street is SMART!

Conversely, many of those who practice 'Reality Based Self-defense' and other 'self-defense' oriented systems often neglect physical development and conditioning, which are extremely important components to being able to defend yourself.

In short, an INTELLIGENT martial artist interested in truly preparing themselves to deal with physical violence, should take what works best from both sport fighting and reality based martial arts.......and that ESPECIALLY means using many of the tried and proven conditioning programs and sparring of combat sports!


Personally, I don't think we should even consider things in such distinct terms.....we CREATE that false dichotomy in our minds, but we shouldn't.....and I try not to....as Bruce Lee said...

"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick." -Bruce Lee

A punch really is just a punch......the difference is in understanding the context you're trying to apply it in.

 

[hkfuie]

When you read something against sport fighting, I wonder if it is on a striking art board.

I think it is different for arts like TKD (my art) because the rules are so restrictive, punches don't count, people stand there with their hands down and just do endless roundhouses (no offense meant! Some of my best friends are Olympic style!) I wonder b/c I think sport fighting in an art like TKD is very different from sport fighting in judo. If you were penalized for using your hands in judo, then I think the comparison would be apples to apples.

I can't help but giggle at the picture in my head of guys trying to grapple without using their arms.

 

[seasoned]

Quote:"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick." -Bruce Lee quote:

Written by sgtmac 46.

It has been a long time since I read or heard this saying by Bruce Lee. It sums up our training over the years.
To know, to not know, to hopefully, fully understand. Thanks for sharing.

 

[searcher]

Everything has its place and use, sportfighting is no different. It is very similar to those of us who shoot guns in competition. Many bash on it, but they don't understand it. If people would stop the nonsense of thinking that the way they do thngs is the be all, end all, they would be able to make great strides. Over the last few years I have seen a big change in my own training by changing my own mindset. Why can we not get ourselves together and move forward, in place of all the mindless bickering that goes on in MA circles.

It seems to me that all who have posted so far in this thread have a good understanding of what I am saying.

We all need to make use of anything we can to further progress ourselves and worry less about what others are doing. Most of the people who bash on stuff are still in the whole, my dad can beat up your dad mentality. Those people need to grow up.

Iam done ranting for now. Thank you jarod for starting this thread.

 

[terryl965]

One can help some, just as well hirt some if they rtuely do not understand what SD really is. What happens is to many sport instructor try to pass the sport side off as self defense instead of leaving it as a sport.

 

[Steve]

One can help some, just as well hirt some if they rtuely do not understand what SD really is. What happens is to many sport instructor try to pass the sport side off as self defense instead of leaving it as a sport.

I think this hits the nail on the head. A lot of the responsibility lies with the instructors and the "product" that they're selling. If it's sport training marketed strictly as such, where any SD application is incidental, great if it's being sold as such.

The only problems I see are where Self Defense training is being sold where there is no pressure testing of the techniques, nor any opportunity for the students so learn the timing and application of the techniques under stress. Some amount of sport training is critical, in my opinion, whether it's formal or informal sparring.

I guess what I'm saying is that great sport training doesn't need a SD application, but great SD training, in my opinion, needs SOME amount of quality sport training.

 

[jks9199]

Sport fighting, in and of itself, is not automatically good or bad for preparing for a real fight. After all, just about any sort of sport fight has sort of a family tie to real fighting. Sparring contests devolved (?) from sparring as an exercise to practice techniques against an opponent.

The danger comes when someone mistakes the environment of rules and "gentlemanly conduct" for reality. And that can happen in or out of competition.

 

[horton]

i see a fair amout of self-defense oriented martial artists on this forum who speak disparingingly of sport fighting arts. this is a shame, because i think that while you can be adequately prepared for most SD situations without participating in sport fighting, sport fighting can be a valuable training aid.

let's examine boxing for instance, a sport i enjoy. while training this sport, i've landed hundreds, maybe thousands of jabs on fully uncooperative opponents. i've landed them on smaller faster people, & bigger stronger people. i've landed jabs moving forward, backwards, & circling. i don't have a perfect jab, but i know what it takes to put my fist in someone's face with enough force to make them pause.

once you can do this, an eye gouge isn't a difficult adaptation to make. instead of making a fist right before impact, you fan out your fingers & keep them fairly relaxed so that they slide into the eye sockets. you simply take the timing & technical skill you developed in a combat sport, slightly modify it, & you have a perfectly viable self defense technique. most sport striking techniques can be similarly modified. instead of push kicking in the torso, target the groin. instead of throwing a hook to the head, aim for the side of the neck, etc.

now let's take a look at grappling. obviously, the ground is not the ideal place to be in most self-defense situations. nevertheless, to paraphrase a famous saying, grappling happens. watch any boxing match, & count how many times the ref splits up the boxers from clinching. it's the most natural reaction in the world to take a punch, & grab the guy who hit you so he can't immediately hit you agian. from the clinch it can be a short trip to the ground, especially if the ground is icy, or there are obstacles to trip over, whatever. once your there, you should know how to get up. failing that, you should now how to win.

one prevelant concept that somewhat irritates me is the idea that grapplers are somehow magically prohibited from using eye gouges, biting, groin attacks, or what have you. on more than occassion i've been asked "what are you going to do when you go to mount somebody & they grab your groin?" well, i'd most likely bury my thumbs in their eyes. i'd grab a nearby improvised weapon & bash them unconsious. i would do whatever it took to prevent or stop their groin attack, & i certainly wouldn't expect them to let go just because i stood up in pain. i'd also hope like hell that i wasn't wearing my kilt!

in short, a grappler has all the tools available to any other martial artist, along with the advantage of position & ground awareness. meaning, while attacking the eyes, groin, or throat, he won't overextend his arm, expose his neck, or make any of the other mistakes that can cost you a grappling match. or in this case, cost you the upperhand in a possibly life threatening encounter.

what's more, sport fighting also helps you to develop all sorts of attributes necessary to survive self defence scenarios: strength, conditioning, control during stress, calm during aggresive physical contact, & perhaps most importantly, determination. so if sport fighting is not your flavor, that is fine. i have many friends who cannot or do not participate in sport martial arts who i am confident could handle themselves when they had to. but to believe that sport fighting & self-defense skills are not complimentary is, in my opinion, a great mistake.

respectfully,

jf

good for conditioning but I still think you end up fighting the way you train, it's muscle memory.

 

[Xue Sheng]

All I will say on the topic of Sport Fighting & Self Defense is that I would sure as hell hate to come up against Cung Le in the street

 

[Andy Moynihan]

You know once a sat down, really sat down and thought about it, I can't understand the false dichotomy.

For example, I currently train in Judo, which many consider a sport, and in fairness it *is* most often taught as one.

But there are advabtages to it that many of my previous arts, for all of *their* good points, did not cover--I face several different resisting opponents every class, little bit standing, little bit from the ground, little bit standing/if it ends up on the ground continue on the ground, it helps inoculate you to fear of force-on-force in grabbing range where a large percentage of unarmed, and not a few instances of armed., trouble starts anyway, and it gets me into the kind of shape most other "traditional" arts just didn't ( i use traditional in quotes because the general MA community's idea of traditional and mine differ).

Well--boxing, muay thai, and BJJ are often considered sports( Though I would consider BJJ a traditional art myself). You gonna volunteer to tell those guys they can't fight?

If I am very lucky and can swing the finances, I'll be taking up small circle jujitsu in addition to judo and do them both.

There will be the "disallowed" moves in judo, but the physical training from judo will give me an effective framework FROM which to launch those joint locks, strikes or what-have you.

 

[seasoned]

All I will say on the topic of Sport Fighting & Self Defense is that I would sure as hell hate to come up against Cung Le in the street

Unless you found him in your house while you were asleep. At that point everything we are talking about, in these posts, would come into reality. At that point we don't consider anything except destruction. :shooter:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unless you found him in your house while you were asleep. At that point everything we are talking about, in these posts, would come into reality. At that point we don't consider anything except destruction. :shooter:

Oh if I found him in my house I'd kick his butt... that's my story and I'm sticking with it...... ummmm :uhohh:... he doesn't come to MT does he :anic:

 

[searcher]

The only way to assure yourself of victory against Cung Le is to beat him with a baseball bat while he was sleeping.






Or you could yell Chuck Norris at him. That would scare most mortals to death.

 

[Deaf Smith]

It all has it's place. Sport fighting can be helpful. It all depends on the person and what they want out of it.

The trick is far more into knowing how to read people and the street than sport .vs. Self Defense. If you can recognize bad street situations, able to spot indicators, and keep aware then you will see trouble coming and know either how to avoid it or defeat it.

Wither your technique will be sport fighting or 'Self defense' will be only a small part of it.

Deaf

 

[Xue Sheng]

The only way to assure yourself of victory against Cung Le is to beat him with a baseball bat while he was sleeping.

I am actually not sure that one would work and lord knows I ain't brave enough to try

Or you could yell Chuck Norris at him. That would scare most mortals to death.

:lol:

NOW your talkin'

 

[sgtmac_46]

It all has it's place. Sport fighting can be helpful. It all depends on the person and what they want out of it.

The trick is far more into knowing how to read people and the street than sport .vs. Self Defense. If you can recognize bad street situations, able to spot indicators, and keep aware then you will see trouble coming and know either how to avoid it or defeat it.

Wither your technique will be sport fighting or 'Self defense' will be only a small part of it.

Deaf

Excellent point.....the combat sport develops the body and reflexes exceptionally well......the RBSD side develops situational awareness and mindsets specific to self-defense. The two are not only not mutually exclusive, but when taken together they each make a practitioner VASTLY more effective!

Anyone remember the old debate about sports and weight lifting? When coaches would forbid their players from weight training because they said it made them slow and bulky? I think this debate is like that one! I don't think there's a WINNING coach in football, baseball or basketball that tells their players 'now DON'T hit the weights!'

 

[jarrod]

When you read something against sport fighting, I wonder if it is on a striking art board.

I think it is different for arts like TKD (my art) because the rules are so restrictive, punches don't count, people stand there with their hands down and just do endless roundhouses (no offense meant! Some of my best friends are Olympic style!) I wonder b/c I think sport fighting in an art like TKD is very different from sport fighting in judo. If you were penalized for using your hands in judo, then I think the comparison would be apples to apples.

I can't help but giggle at the picture in my head of guys trying to grapple without using their arms.

it happens in the grappling world too. every time i see a judoka bury his face in the mat & wait for a ref stand-up, i just want to go poop on his head.

Sport fighting, in and of itself, is not automatically good or bad for preparing for a real fight. After all, just about any sort of sport fight has sort of a family tie to real fighting. Sparring contests devolved (?) from sparring as an exercise to practice techniques against an opponent.

The danger comes when someone mistakes the environment of rules and "gentlemanly conduct" for reality. And that can happen in or out of competition.

this is true. if you're a history nerd like me, you know that warriors throughout history & legend have competed in some form of boxing &/or wrestling. achilles, cuchulain, rob roy...the vikings practiced glima, but i'm sure they knew the difference between a glima wrestling match & a battle.

good for conditioning but I still think you end up fighting the way you train, it's muscle memory.

this is true; but this comment also often passes underanalyzed. let's say you train eye gouges & throat strikes all the time in your SD art (not you specifically, horton). those techs are too dangerous to do to against a fully uncooperative opponent, unless you can afford something like tony blaur's tactical protective gear. so you may have the muscle memory to form your hand in a certain way & attack a static target, but have not developed the muscle memory to to immediately capitalize on a split second opening against fully uncooperative target that is simultaneously attacking you as well. muscle memory must be developed under extreme stress as well in order for it to be effective in a fight, because fighting is extremely stressful.

jf

 

[allenjp]

There is another aspect to sport fighting which I think is often overlooked.

When you roll (everyone knows I'm a BJJ guy right?) with someone who trains like you do, they know many of the techniques you are going to use, and they know how to defend against them. In consequence, you are forced to train different ways of setting techniques up and applying them, because if you just go for it against a person that is not only resisting but knows what you are trying to do, chances are you are going to fail. That type of experience just makes your techniques that much stronger when you go against someone that doesn't necessarily know how to defend against your techniques.

For example, if a Judoka gets really good at performing throws against other judokas, I like his chances of being able to throw me if we meet on the street.

That, and I think that sport fighting goes a long way in removing some of the nerves that are involved in a real fight. And I think that nerves are a lot more important than many people realise.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

There is another aspect to sport fighting which I think is often overlooked.

When you roll (everyone knows I'm a BJJ guy right?) with someone who trains like you do, they know many of the techniques you are going to use, and they know how to defend against them. In consequence, you are forced to train different ways of setting techniques up and applying them, because if you just go for it against a person that is not only resisting but knows what you are trying to do, chances are you are going to fail. That type of experience just makes your techniques that much stronger when you go against someone that doesn't necessarily know how to defend against your techniques.

For example, if a Judoka gets really good at performing throws against other judokas, I like his chances of being able to throw me if we meet on the street.

That, and I think that sport fighting goes a long way in removing some of the nerves that are involved in a real fight. And I think that nerves are a lot more important than many people realise.

That's the key right there.

As Saint Cooper used to say when he was still amongst us, successful self defense is less a matter of skill than a matter of will.