Crimials are training

[Wild Bill]

While lurking over at Kenpo Talk I found a discussion about EPAK in prison. It got me thinking. I am a proponent of CQC/defensive tactics training. Although I enjoy martial arts I have never been able to study seriously for more than a few months at a time. As a result the bulk of my training has been in military and law enforcement hand to hand combatives. I believe these methods are good when trained realistically, however, one of the assumptions of many CQC proponents is that in a real street fight they will go up against untrained, out of shape punks. There are some people that are so deluded that they think they can take out Tito Ortiz with a chin jab.

If you stupidly get into a fight you may well be up against some guy who is out of shape and hasn’t been trained but there is a big difference between getting into a fight and defending yourself. If you get into a fight it is probably because you are acting just as stupid as the person you are fighting. You could have avoided the situation if you had been smarter. In a self defense situation you have no choice but to use force against someone who is attacking you for fun or profit. The type of person that will rob or rape you is most likely a career criminal. He or she has probably been in and out of the prison system most of their lives. As a corrections officer I can tell you that these people are training and they are in good shape. I would say that 97% of the people I guard are in better shape than the average American. They live in a macho subculture were the strong dominate the weak. They have nothing better to do all day except work out. I have personally caught criminals exchanging martial arts techniques. Slap boxing isn’t just goofing around. They are sparring.

My advice to people concerned about self defense is to train as often as you can as hard as you can. Whenever it is legal to do so you should carry weapons. Be as prepared as possible. If you have to deal with one of these predators you will need everything you can muster.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I was under the impression that Martial Arts training in either jail or prison was prohibited. Are these folks doing it "unofficially". If so, who's the jerk that's training them, and why can't his behind be nailed?

 

[Wild Bill]

why can't his behind be nailed?

For the same reason we can't stop them from dealing drugs and having sex with each other in prison. There are more prisoners than there are guards. There is always a nook or dark spot that guars can't see. If they get caught they are punished but unless we can prove that it is organized gang activity or something like that there is very little we can do. You would be surprised at how many rights prisoners have and how difficult it is to punish them.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

For the same reason we can't stop them from dealing drugs and having sex with each other in prison. There are more prisoners than there are guards. There is always a nook or dark spot that guars can't see. If they get caught they are punished but unless we can prove that it is organized gang activity or something like that there is very little we can do. You would be surprised at how many rights prisoners have and how difficult it is to punish them.

Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Drac]

Saw a video at a police conference of 2 prisoners practicing escapes from the wall handcuffing position..Very Scary...

 

[MJS]

I was a CO for a short time, and its true. These guys have nothing to do all day, so they spend their time working out and doing as Wild Bill and Drac stated. Some of these guys are in better shape than folks I'd see at the gym! I remember one guy taking a deck of playing cards. He'd put the pile on the floor and flip one card over. He would then perform a certain number of push ups. He'd rest for a few and repeat this process until the entire deck was finished!

I was under the impression that Martial Arts training in either jail or prison was prohibited. Are these folks doing it "unofficially". If so, who's the jerk that's training them, and why can't his behind be nailed?

Yes sir, thats correct, it is prohibited. As I said, these guys have nothing to do all day, so they exchange ideas. Someone shows the next guy how to improve on his punching, escaping from cuffs, etc., and in return, the other guy explains his techniques for breaking into and hotwiring a car. As for being nailed...many of these guys are facing many years in prison and some life sentences. Taking away visitation or phone priviledges for a week is nothing for someone who is facing 60 yrs behind bars. They'll suck it up for that time and go right back to doing the same thing.

Mike

 

[Drac]

So remember MA's if you should think about engaging one of these individuals...THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE!!!..

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I saw a video a while back showing prisoners practicing surprise knife attacks. Scary stuff.

 

[KenpoTex]

My advice to people concerned about self defense is to train as often as you can as hard as you can. Whenever it is legal to do so you should carry weapons. Be as prepared as possible. If you have to deal with one of these predators you will need everything you can muster.

That was so good it just needs repeating


Your points about violent career criminals are dead on, you're not going to survive against one of these guys w/o some serious, realistic training and the proper combative mindset. Unfortunately, I would say that the vast majority of those who call themselves martial-artists or who claim to be proficient in self-defense would be no match for a criminal of the type being discussed here.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing people sometimes miss when training is to remember to train as if your life depended on it. This is easily said but sometimes forgotten on the Training Hall floors.

 

[terryl965]

One thing people sometimes miss when training is to remember to train as if your life depended on it. This is easily said but sometimes forgotten on the Training Hall floors.

agreed Brian we sometime take it for granted that we know more than them.

 

[Drac]

This topic was touched on once before do a Search for Redemption-can martial training help...Interesting reading...

 

[CuongNhuka]

You would be surprised at how many rights prisoners have and how difficult it is to punish them.

See this is the part of the American Justice System that ticks me off. They broke the law, they shouldn't have rights as far as I'm conscerned.

 

[Drac]

See this is the part of the American Justice System that ticks me off. They broke the law, they shouldn't have rights as far as I'm conscerned.

You ain't alone with those beliefs...

 

[jks9199]

Saw a video at a police conference of 2 prisoners practicing escapes from the wall handcuffing position..Very Scary...

That one's been around for some time. Prisoners ARE actively, openly and covertly, practicing and teaching each other combative techniques targeted at both law enforcement and civilians. Add in many street gang members who are enlisting in the military solely to acquire training in combat techniques, and there's a nightmare in the offing... I'm aware of one incident in CA where a gang member/USMC veteran (given his actions and the respect I hold for the Corps, I won't call him a Marine) staged an ambush and used his combat training and experience to assault and kill the responding officers.

And, there are people who feel that teaching martial arts to prisoners is good and will help reform them...

 

[Drac]

And, there are people who feel that teaching martial arts to prisoners is good and will help reform them...

Hence the thread I mentioned...

 

[kachi]

I remember one guy taking a deck of playing cards. He'd put the pile on the floor and flip one card over. He would then perform a certain number of push ups. He'd rest for a few and repeat this process until the entire deck was finished!

I've done this one a few times before, each suit is a different type of push up and whatever number is on the card that's how many you do. It's one hell of a workout and if these guys in prison doing this regularly along with other workouts they'd be strong as all hell.

Still i'm sure that a prisoners technique wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as someone who is able to train regularly at a dojo and they wouldn't have access to the variety and range of techniques, defences, kata, feedback, etc... that we have. The prisoners wouldn't be able to train all day every day and if they're just working out then that shouldn't to much of a problem if you can apply your defence techniques correctly.

 

[Wild Bill]

You would be surprised. I am talking about people who grow up fighting to survive. Don't underestimate superior conditioning, both mental and physical. The last time I responded to a use of force I found two gaurds overcome by their own pepper spray and a pissed of inmate ready to fight. Most of these people are little more than animals. I don't mean to sound unenlighted but my practical experiance says I'm right.

I don't know what it is like in Australia but martial arts in the U.S. are pretty expensive. I don't think it is a big leap for me to believe that most people that can afford lessons are middle and upper class. We live by rules. Criminals do not. Perhaps I should discribe them as over grown children rather than animals. They act out and don't care about the consequences of their actions. When criminals are taken to task for their actions they are not sorry for the harm they have caused others. They are sorry that they are being punished.

Most martial artists, even those of us who train in modern practical arts, will find it very difficult to engage in the brutality that may be necessary in order to win a real bloody fight. Make no mistake. There will be blood. What I am really trying to say is that us nice civilized martial artists are not as dangeous as we would like to think. Do you have what it takes to shove your thumbs into someones eyes and feel the gore running down your hands. Can you whip out that hundred dollar tactical forlder and stab another human being in their guts. I would like to answer in the affirmative but you just can't know how you will react until it happens to you. Fortunately most of us won't have to go to those extremes but it is something to think about.

 

[pstarr]

Having worked both as a peace officer and as a correctional officer in a prison, I have to agree. These people are barely above the level of animals and they have no problem doing whatever it takes to get whatever it is that they want.

You have to be willing and able to do whatever it takes to stop them if need be.

 

[Robert Lee]

Prisoner or regular person Heart has to do with fighting wanting to win want to fight on then skill. A person can workout but They have to have the heart to fight on. I was told over thirty years ago. Train towards having to fight what type a person you would think would be your worst person to fight. If you train toward that trype of person others that are less a fighter will be much easyer to fight. Means train hard and be comitted to to your training. Rest is living and doing what you have to if the time comes.