Experiencing MA through the eyes of a Kung Fu San Soo practitioner

[clfsean]

well, I think you need to look at it from the perspective of the instructor. You are a new student coming in to check out what he is teaching. You are claiming some experience with other methods, but he doesn't know what your true skill level is. So you are a newbie and he probably feels he needs time to assess your ability and how well your skills may or may not mesh with his methodology. So he has you start as a beginner and he teaches you like you are a beginner so that he is certain that in his method, he is teaching you thoroughly and completely, and hasn't skipped over something based on a possibly false assumption that you already understand or know it.

I have no experience with Krav nor with san soo, so I cannot comment on how similar they may or may not be. It is my experience however, that often things that might look similar on the surface, can have some subtle differences underneath it, and those subtleties can make all the difference in the world. Those things take time and close attention to sort out.

So again, I suggest that if you decide to join another school, you embrace being a beginner in that school and do not assume nor expect to advance any faster than any other beginner, in that system. If merited, you may advance faster. But a lot of that depends on the instructor's judgement of what is the best way to approach your instruction. And of course none of this means anything with regard to your status or abilities with san soo. It doesn't take anything away from that.

Nicely put.

I've been with my current teacher almost a year now. I've practiced one of the martial arts he teaches (Choy Lay Fut) for quite a while but a different branch. I'm a beginner in his school, but granted I move much easier & comprehend far more than the other students there. Did my ego (which yes, that's the problem I'm seeing here) get in the way?? Hell no!! He has something good to bring to the table, I can clean off my plate to take part in it.

Best thing I can tell you from what I've read, check your ego & your black belt at the door. If you're going into somebody else's house, you play under there rules. Or don't. Your call, but don't expect special treatment from lots of places due to past experience. Most of the time it doesn't matter, it can just give you a head start in comprehension of the new material.

 

[jks9199]

From my experience with the class, and thorough questioning of the owner, the level 1 class ultimately is what I experienced in that class. You have to look at it from my perspective, you are trying new martial arts, in the previous three, you have learned or experienced something new. Then you go to another art, and experience something identical to what you just trained a third of your life in and told that you have to start anew. It is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of actually GETTING SOMETHING out of what I am paying for. I would be perfectly fine with being level 1 if I were able to work with higher levels and be allowed to spar. Upon questioning why level 1 doesn't spar, I received this answer, "People in level 1 need to develop control before being allowed to spar." I didn't comment, but this was going through my mind, "What the hell do you think that I have been doing? In a martial art almost identical to yours, I would have quite developed control."

I would also like to point out this from our email chain before I actually moved. Upon asking how similar it is to San Soo, "Krav is unlike anything else out there."
No. You, sir, are wrong. It is quite similar to at least two martial arts I can name off of the top of my head, San Soo and Kenpo. There are others as well.

Considering that Krav Maga is a synthesis of the arts and experience of Eli Lichtenstein... Yeah, it's going to resemble a lot of other arts.

Now, let's look for a minute at perspectives... You're starting in a new art, and you THINK you've seen the technique before. You haven't seen their presentation of it, their principles and tactics involving it. But you missed that because you already decided "I know this..." I spent a couple of hours with a student a few weeks back who was so locked in "I've already seen that" that he didn't realize that what we were showing him was different. He was closed off and, honestly, we finally gave up. We weren't going to get through to him. Make sure you don't fall into that trap as you continue your training.

Or, as another example, I've started working with a personal trainer to tweak my fitness and rehab some things. As we were going through yesterday's workout, he didn't have to demonstrate most of the exercises because I'm not a novice exerciser... but I still made sure that what I heard him say was the exercise I thought. Like Dive bombers... there're about 4 ways to do this particular exercise. To get the benefit he wanted me to get, I had to make sure that the version I was doing was the one he wanted.

 

[Flying Crane]

Considering that Krav Maga is a synthesis of the arts and experience of Eli Lichtenstein... Yeah, it's going to resemble a lot of other arts.

Now, let's look for a minute at perspectives... You're starting in a new art, and you THINK you've seen the technique before. You haven't seen their presentation of it, they're principles and tactics involving it. But you missed that because you already decided "I know this..." I spent a couple of hours with a student a few weeks back who was so locked in "I've already seen that" that he didn't realize that what we were showing him was different. He was closed off and, honestly, we finally gave up. We weren't going to get through to him. Make sure you don't fall into that trap as you continue your training.

It really begs the question: what is he doing in your class, if he "already knows it"? If he's so committed to what he's done before and only sees things thru those lenses, then there's no reason to go to another school.

 

[ItstheFNG]

Considering that Krav Maga is a synthesis of the arts and experience of Eli Lichtenstein... Yeah, it's going to resemble a lot of other arts.

Now, let's look for a minute at perspectives... You're starting in a new art, and you THINK you've seen the technique before. You haven't seen their presentation of it, they're principles and tactics involving it. But you missed that because you already decided "I know this..." I spent a couple of hours with a student a few weeks back who was so locked in "I've already seen that" that he didn't realize that what we were showing him was different. He was closed off and, honestly, we finally gave up. We weren't going to get through to him. Make sure you don't fall into that trap as you continue your training.

Or, as another example, I've started working with a personal trainer to tweak my fitness and rehab some things. As we were going through yesterday's workout, he didn't have to demonstrate most of the exercises because I'm not a novice exerciser... but I still made sure that what I heard him say was the exercise I thought. Like Dive bombers... there're about 4 ways to do this particular exercise. To get the benefit he wanted me to get, I had to make sure that the version I was doing was the one he wanted.

You don't understand, it is the exact same way we do it in San Soo. Person gets you in a headlock. Tuck your chin to the inside shoulder, and step out immediately. Slap the groin. Find their face, grab the hair or put your fingers under their nose. Force down as you stand up, hammerfist to the face or chest. EXACT same way we do it in San Soo. I have seen and actively participated in their technique, so you are already wrong. Have you done both arts? If you haven't you have no place telling me how similar they are or aren't, that goes with everyone else here too. Until you have actually experienced both arts, kindly keep quiet, as you are judging from a position that has no right to judge.

 

[ItstheFNG]

It really begs the question: what is he doing in your class, if he "already knows it"? If he's so committed to what he's done before and only sees things thru those lenses, then there's no reason to go to another school.

It really begs the question, have you even read my original post? Why don't you do me a favor and go read that, then amend your post sir.

 

[ItstheFNG]

Nicely put.

I've been with my current teacher almost a year now. I've practiced one of the martial arts he teaches (Choy Lay Fut) for quite a while but a different branch. I'm a beginner in his school, but granted I move much easier & comprehend far more than the other students there. Did my ego (which yes, that's the problem I'm seeing here) get in the way?? Hell no!! He has something good to bring to the table, I can clean off my plate to take part in it.

Best thing I can tell you from what I've read, check your ego & your black belt at the door. If you're going into somebody else's house, you play under there rules. Or don't. Your call, but don't expect special treatment from lots of places due to past experience. Most of the time it doesn't matter, it can just give you a head start in comprehension of the new material.

I really wonder if you guys have read my original post at all. This is the only damn case where this shows up. I didn't waltz into the ****ing Aikido school saying I am tough and have seen this before, the case IS LIMITED TO KRAV ALONE. So everyone, please for the love of God, stop making generalizations about me because of my experience with ONE ART, despite the fact that I presented FOUR. Holy **** people, lay off of the Krav for a bit.

 

[clfsean]

I really wonder if you guys have read my original post at all. This is the only damn case where this shows up. I didn't waltz into the ****ing Aikido school saying I am tough and have seen this before, the case IS LIMITED TO KRAV ALONE. So everyone, please for the love of God, stop making generalizations about me because of my experience with ONE ART, despite the fact that I presented FOUR. Holy **** people, lay off of the Krav for a bit.

Methinks thou dost protest too much ... <paraphrased>

In other words... 1 out of 4 ... 1 out of 400 ... it's not what you said but how you said it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think this guy is unteachable. He already knows everything and he has the attitude that goes with it.

Good luck to him. He'll need it.

 

[ItstheFNG]

I think this guy is unteachable. He already knows everything and he has the attitude that goes with it.

Good luck to him. He'll need it.

Once again, have you read my original post?

 

[Tames D]

Another pile on. I love it.

 

[The Last Legionary]

*Disclaimer - I am just one person, and I am presenting my opinions and thoughts in a straightforward and honest way. I am well aware that this opens me to ridicule, but in doing so, use discretion please. I am biased, just as you are, reader. If you are too close-minded to view other's opinions, I encourage you to stop reading now.

Translation: I'm stating my opinion. Opinions that differ from mine should go away. Works for me.

To the OP - You stated your opinion. This is a discussion forum. People are free to disagree with your opinion. I do. Disagreement is not close mindedness. But unlike others here, I don't care to engage beyond this. If you want a place where you can post and not deal with differing opinions, you should post on a blog.

To anyone else continuing to post, this is an unofficial reminder to not attack the messenger. Forum Rules and what not.

 

[Dirty Dog]

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[Flying Crane]

Once again, have you read my original post?

I'll give this one more shot.

Of course I read your original post. Did you read my posts, and those of CLFSEAN and JKS9199? Because you were actually getting some honest, clean advice, given in a reasonable tone. We were pointing out that you might want to look at things a little differently, maybe you've missed something. But you didn't like what you were hearing, so you got upset and started swearing in your follow-ups. This is a discussion forum and members here can join in, even if you don't like what they have to say. You can take the advice, or chose to disregard it. That's your choice to make. Nobody is cramming it down your throat. But some of the people here have been around the block quite a number of times, and they know what they are talking about. We are doing you a favor by giving you honest advice, rather than simply telling you what we think you want to hear. Even when that advice is likely NOT what you want to here. That's how some of the folks here roll. We feel strongly about the training that we do and the systems that we love, and we will do our very best to never sell it short or mislead someone about what's reasonable.

Again, you don't have to like the advice. But taking it gracefully, even if you don't like it and chose to disregard it, would be a step toward an adult dialog. And that will earn you more points for respect in these parts.

take it as you will.

 

[ItstheFNG]

I'll give this one more shot.

Of course I read your original post. Did you read my posts, and those of CLFSEAN and JKS9199? Because you were actually getting some honest, clean advice, given in a reasonable tone. We were pointing out that you might want to look at things a little differently, maybe you've missed something. But you didn't like what you were hearing, so you got upset and started swearing in your follow-ups. This is a discussion forum and members here can join in, even if you don't like what they have to say. You can take the advice, or chose to disregard it. That's your choice to make. Nobody is cramming it down your throat. But some of the people here have been around the block quite a number of times, and they know what they are talking about. We are doing you a favor by giving you honest advice, rather than simply telling you what we think you want to hear. Even when that advice is likely NOT what you want to here. That's how some of the folks here roll. We feel strongly about the training that we do and the systems that we love, and we will do our very best to never sell it short or mislead someone about what's reasonable.

Again, you don't have to like the advice. But taking it gracefully, even if you don't like it and chose to disregard it, would be a step toward an adult dialog. And that will earn you more points for respect in these parts.

take it as you will.

You will have to excuse me for, so to speak, losing it. I apologize for it. But your last post, regardless of how you meant it, was quite offensive.

 

[ItstheFNG]

Translation: I'm stating my opinion. Opinions that differ from mine should go away. Works for me.

To the OP - You stated your opinion. This is a discussion forum. People are free to disagree with your opinion. I do. Disagreement is not close mindedness. But unlike others here, I don't care to engage beyond this. If you want a place where you can post and not deal with differing opinions, you should post on a blog.

To anyone else continuing to post, this is an unofficial reminder to not attack the messenger. Forum Rules and what not.

There is a pretty clear line between stating opinions and personally attacking the original poster. And my opinions, unlike some others (not all) were not directed at one person, whereas the statement, "He already knows everything and has the attitude that goes with it." has crossed the line in my book.

Again, I apologize for getting out of control, but I do feel it was warranted to an extent, just not the extent I took it to.

 

[Flying Crane]

You will have to excuse me for, so to speak, losing it. I apologize for it. But your last post, regardless of how you meant it, was quite offensive.

as was yours. The forum stars out swear words. How many were in your last post? Swearing doesn't bother me personally, I've got the worst potty mouth of any one I know. But on the forums it's not allowed and it's not a decent way to engage in the discussions here.

So I'm cool if you're cool. I've got no further issues.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ive been to busy to do this until now. And i wanted to see how it panned out.

I really wonder if you guys have read my original post at all. This is the only damn case where this shows up. I didn't waltz into the ****ing Aikido school saying I am tough and have seen this before, the case IS LIMITED TO KRAV ALONE. So everyone, please for the love of God, stop making generalizations about me because of my experience with ONE ART, despite the fact that I presented FOUR. Holy **** people, lay off of the Krav for a bit.

*your experience with one outlet.
Also, were discussing. If you dont want to discuss the Krav thing you dont have to. Its like if someone asks you a question face to face - Youre not obliged to answer and youre not obliged to be 'right'.

It really begs the question, have you even read my original post? Why don't you do me a favor and go read that, then amend your post sir.

Everyone read your original post - Its your replies thatre being addressed.
Now for the fun part.

You don't understand, it is the exact same way we do it in San Soo. Person gets you in a headlock. Tuck your chin to the inside shoulder, and step out immediately. Slap the groin. Find their face, grab the hair or put your fingers under their nose. Force down as you stand up, hammerfist to the face or chest. EXACT same way we do it in San Soo. I have seen and actively participated in their technique, so you are already wrong. Have you done both arts? If you haven't you have no place telling me how similar they are or aren't, that goes with everyone else here too. Until you have actually experienced both arts, kindly keep quiet, as you are judging from a position that has no right to judge.

Its also how just about every par for the course self defense school does defense against headlocks. Its either a groin slap + eye gouge thing followed by hammerfists, or its a bearhug around the hips/legs followed by a throw.
Lemme present you with an optional scenario: You want to learn *new* solutions. If the solutions you already have are good, why on earth do you want to have more to choose from? Better solutions i could understand, but better solutions would be even more mundane. And you soon after say this:

I am done looking for something to continue my training in the "street fighting" self defense arts. My hopes died with Krav. Now I am looking for something to complement what I already know, Jiu-Jitsu to develop ground game perhaps. Or even TKD to help my kicks and experience a tournament setting.

So dont try and put it down to wanting to learn different arts. Youre clearly filtering it through 'street fighting'. Self defense, 'street fighting', and so forth are all simple creatures because the 'solutions' to the 'problems' really are simple. When stuff gets complicated, you should smell a rat.

Also, we have every place to talk about things we havent experienced when its on a technical level.

One thing though: Tucking your chin to the inside of their shoulder gives them your carotid artery. Thats not good if their headlock is meant to choke you. Youve given them more neck to squeeze. Having your throat compressed is painful but it wont put you down as fast. Just move your whole head if possible. If theyre squeezing so tight you cant do that, you probably cant turn it either.

From my experience with the class, and thorough questioning of the owner, the level 1 class ultimately is what I experienced in that class. You have to look at it from my perspective, you are trying new martial arts, in the previous three, you have learned or experienced something new. Then you go to another art, and experience something identical to what you just trained a third of your life in and told that you have to start anew. It is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of actually GETTING SOMETHING out of what I am paying for.

Again: Working solutions work, and other obvious truths. That being said...

I would be perfectly fine with being level 1 if I were able to work with higher levels and be allowed to spar. Upon questioning why level 1 doesn't spar, I received this answer, "People in level 1 need to develop control before being allowed to spar." I didn't comment, but this was going through my mind, "What the hell do you think that I have been doing? In a martial art almost identical to yours, I would have quite developed control."

Well, you did spend three years doing what they do just for level 1 by the sounds of it. You cant expect to be jumped ahead due to your experience in a different system. Humans have this way of wanting to complicate simple things. Krav is about simple, recyclable solutions to different problems. Theres very little build up to any 'advanced' stuff, so much as applying the same stuff to different things. Thats Krav for you, at least most of the time.

Youre literally asking to be skipped ahead because you consider yourself to be more advanced than their beginners are, even though youve *never done their system before*. I guess ive got a green belt in TKD, i should be able to go get the equivelant in Shotokan, right? ...right?

I would also like to point out this from our email chain before I actually moved. Upon asking how similar it is to San Soo, "Krav is unlike anything else out there."
No. You, sir, are wrong. It is quite similar to at least two martial arts I can name off of the top of my head, San Soo and Kenpo. There are others as well.

Krav is pretty unique, mostly in its training methods. Technique isnt on the forefront. I cant speak for the outlet you went to, though. Because it should barely resemble San Soo OR Kenpo.

https://www.youtube.com/results?q=s...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&gl=AU&sa=N&tab=w1
https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...j3j1.4.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.pMuurImig0E
https://www.youtube.com/results?sea....5j3.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.6rtMiRG67ag

60 seconds of research. 20 seconds for each one. Its blatantly obvious.



Now on a less debate themed note, calm yourself mate. You did state an unrealistic expectation or two, and you were called out on it. Take it on the chin, you dont need to 'defend yourself'. You will be better preserved by talking about it rather than jumping on people for calling you on it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ItstheFNG when I train with a new teacher. I am there to learn how they do things. I try to take any preconceived notions of what or how they do things and put them to the side. I am there to experience how they do things and also what drives their martial practice. (principles, theories, etc.) Quite often they show things that are similar to what I do but it might have a minor adjustment. That adjustment may be an opening or window into a new area of improvement for me! I certainly cannot expect to learn how they do things or even if I would enjoy training with them in just one class. That takes a bit of time. Usually I very, very carefully choose who I train with and then I am with them for a very long time. So be careful with who you train with, take your time in finding a new school and understand that it may take awhile to find an instructor you wish to work with. All of the ones you visited might not be right for you or maybe you need to take a second look!

 

[ItstheFNG]

Yeah, I got all worked up over nothing and refused to take advice. I'm over it, clearly proved myself an ***, and will accept it for what it is. I will still update with experienced from other arts, I plan on trying TKD this week and hopefully Jiu-Jitsu.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah, I got all worked up over nothing and refused to take advice. I'm over it, clearly proved myself an ***, and will accept it for what it is. I will still update with experienced from other arts, I plan on trying TKD this week and hopefully Jiu-Jitsu.

Best of luck good sir