Don't other people also deserve health care, an education, housing, and respect?

[celtic_crippler]

I loved Ross Perot's idea of "Work-fair" over welfare.

I have no problem helping someone that wants to help themselves and is/wants to be a contributing member of society or helping those that can not fend for themselves due to illness or disability.

I do have a problem giving money and resources to people who do not.

You want to be a bum? Go be a bum, but don't expect me to help with your medical, housing, and other costs.

I don't cater to parasites.

 

[Steve]

Funny that with all the trillions in dollars collected in taxes and distributed to the poor in the form of free housing, food, and health care, not to mention job training, that since the inception that the poor class has been growing at an insane rate. 2/3's of people accepted into the Job Corps didn't even bother to finish a free job training program. Less than 44% of the 1/3 who did complete the program found a job, and only 12% found one in their field. Most were in the minimum wage range.

Not bad for a program that cost the US taxpayer $21,333 per body.

The year prior to the introduction of Medicaid poor families had a higher admittance rate at hospitals. Since it's inception, it's reduced or eliminated countless pro-bono programs, and encouraged the current out of control climate of health costs.

In 1971, NYC alone had 1.1 MILLION people on welfare, more people than the total populations of 15 states. I shudder to think what that number is today, where my state tax dollars are being funneled.

Cherry picking facts is a funny thing. Let's pretend that our current health care system is broken because of medicaid. Come on, Bob.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Steve, I believe I've been clear in the past on where I believe the problems with health care lie. I don't blame just Medicaid.

Inflated costs subsidized by both the government and insurance companies to the detriment of both doctors and patients.

Yes, I will admit to cherry picking as I go. Should I report over and over again all prior points or should I expect the intelligent reader to you know, read the whole thread, check out any links, etc?

I support Workfare, not welfare.
I support drug testing and counseling for all recipients of government aid. It's my money, I should get some say in it's use.
I support cutting taxes, cutting social programs, and holding people responsible.

Medicaid had an estimated $60 Billion in fraud in 2007. (Source)
Medicare hit the same number in 2009. (Source)
Hospital Bill overcharges cost us $10 Billion a year. (Source)

Divide $170B / 350M (Americans) and that's a pretty big amount we're being ripped off each.

Doctors Opting out of Medicare at an Alarming Rate

nytimes.com — More and more doctors -- especially internists, gastroenterologists, gynecologists, and psychiatrists -- are refusing to accept Medicare. Why? The reimbursement rates are too low, and paperwork is too much of a hassle, they say. Of the 93 internists affiliated with New York-Presbyterian Hospital, for example, only 37 accept Medicare.

I know of a chiropractor who charges $35 a visit, including xrays. Cash only. Accepts no insurance.
The one I know who accepts insurance charged $40 a visit, xrays start at $50 per.
Maybe all the paperwork is a problem?
Maybe all the fraud is a problem?
Maybe if you reduce the 2, you can raise the quality of health care without taking more money out of my wallet to cover it?

 

[Steve]

Steve, I believe I've been clear in the past on where I believe the problems with health care lie. I don't blame just Medicaid.

Inflated costs subsidized by both the government and insurance companies to the detriment of both doctors and patients.

Yes, I will admit to cherry picking as I go. Should I report over and over again all prior points or should I expect the intelligent reader to you know, read the whole thread, check out any links, etc?

I support Workfare, not welfare.
I support drug testing and counseling for all recipients of government aid. It's my money, I should get some say in it's use.
I support cutting taxes, cutting social programs, and holding people responsible.

Medicaid had an estimated $60 Billion in fraud in 2007. (Source)
Medicare hit the same number in 2009. (Source)
Hospital Bill overcharges cost us $10 Billion a year. (Source)

Divide $170B / 350M (Americans) and that's a pretty big amount we're being ripped off each.



I know of a chiropractor who charges $35 a visit, including xrays. Cash only. Accepts no insurance.
The one I know who accepts insurance charged $40 a visit, xrays start at $50 per.
Maybe all the paperwork is a problem?
Maybe all the fraud is a problem?
Maybe if you reduce the 2, you can raise the quality of health care without taking more money out of my wallet to cover it?

First, please take a breath. I'm not picking on you.

Regarding the rest, for the sake of argument, I'll grant all of your points. Let's presume the fraud, the paperwork, the collusion (that's mine, but I believe it to be there), I think you and I are not too far apart. Where you seem to see it as a choice between healthcare for everyone and money back in your pocket, I believe that it's possible to have both.

Where we really diverge is that, if given a choice between the two, I would choose to pay for healthcare for everyone and you would, I think, choose otherwise. That's okay. That, at least, is an honest disagreement.

As an aside, regarding your "it's my money" line. I made a not very funny joke a long time ago while in the military and your quote reminded me of it. I was an e-3 and my crew chief told me to go out and do something I didn't want to do. I said something like, "You know, I don't pay a lot in taxes, but I figure I pay about 30 minute's worth. Can I take that 30 minutes now?"

 

[celtic_crippler]

Steve, I believe I've been clear in the past on where I believe the problems with health care lie. I don't blame just Medicaid.

Inflated costs subsidized by both the government and insurance companies to the detriment of both doctors and patients.

...and just who benefits from those inflated costs?

That's the question that gets overlooked when the feces is scattered, people focus on and get distracted by the feces instead of asking the most pertinent question of all: Who Benefits?

Answer that, and you'll be well on your way to finding a solution....follow the money trail.

Yes, I will admit to cherry picking as I go. Should I report over and over again all prior points or should I expect the intelligent reader to you know, read the whole thread, check out any links, etc?

I support Workfare, not welfare.
I support drug testing and counseling for all recipients of government aid. It's my money, I should get some say in it's use.
I support cutting taxes, cutting social programs, and holding people responsible.

Personal accountability?
Governmental accountability?
Perish the thought!!!!
Those values are out-dated, Bob. You old-timer, you. Get with the program! The new values are all about entitlements. I think therefore I am, I am therefore I deserve...(insert whatever you have that I want here)

Medicaid had an estimated $60 Billion in fraud in 2007. (Source)
Medicare hit the same number in 2009. (Source)
Hospital Bill overcharges cost us $10 Billion a year. (Source)

Divide $170B / 350M (Americans) and that's a pretty big amount we're being ripped off each.

Hmmmm.... that's close to $500 per each American. I think it would be more accurate if you divided into how many Americans actually work and pay taxes.

Approximately 150 million are employed so that would work out more to about $1133 per person.

It would be nice to get that back in a check from good old Uncle Sam wouldn't it?

I know of a chiropractor who charges $35 a visit, including xrays. Cash only. Accepts no insurance.
The one I know who accepts insurance charged $40 a visit, xrays start at $50 per.
Maybe all the paperwork is a problem?
Maybe all the fraud is a problem?
Maybe if you reduce the 2, you can raise the quality of health care without taking more money out of my wallet to cover it?

...follow the money trail...all the way to the end.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Steve, I don't see you picking on me, and I apologize if my post came across harsher than intended. You and I are pretty much on the same page.


So....did you get your 30 minutes?

 

[Sukerkin]

Only 150 million are employed!? Blimey! I think that might be a sign that there is something fundamentally wrong with your political economy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

US population is around 350M.

Of course, Nancy Pelosi stated a few times that every day we failed to bail out those insurance companies 500 miliion American's would lose their jobs. I think by now her figures somewhere in the trillions. :rofl:

There are plenty of jobs out there. People just don't want them. When you're used to making $50k it's rather insulting to have to consider flipping a burger at a McJob. (Yes, I speak from personal experience)

 

[Sukerkin]

:lol: I do recall that particular Epic Fail in economic/fiscal theory .

That knocking on for 1-in-3 employment rate seems very low tho - no wonder people are annoyed by their tax burdens.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

In all truth Suk, I don't mind paying taxes. I don't mind paying alot in taxes. What I mind is paying a high % in taxes, that only gets wasted and skimmed off. I'd love to be in a position to pay $100k a year, but not if I'm only making $101k.

 

[Carol]

1 in 3 unemployment too high. We didn't see numbers like that in the great depression.

Just as a reference...

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

US population: 304,059,724

Persons under 18: 24.3%, or 73,886,513

Persons over 65: 12.5% or 38,007,466

(total population) - (under 18s) - (over 65s) = 192,165,745

 

[Sukerkin]

A most perfectly rational position, Bob.

I noted the figures for 'graft and corruption' in the way that medical services were funded and if they are even close to accurate, how can such a pass have arisen? Such a degree of waste is unforgiveable and if that is why there is such railing against 'socialised medicine' I can well understand it.

To me, mind you, that speaks that there is something very wrong in the implementation rather than something wrong with the basic idea.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

That's my point. The system we have is fubar. The proposed plan, only adds more money to a broken ship. There's enough money in the system now, if it was properly focused to make the US system the best in the world. Just like we grow enough food in the US to feed everyone in the country like kings of old. The systems broken. I'd rather fix it, then continue to slap dirty bandaids on a festering wound.

 

[celtic_crippler]

A most perfectly rational position, Bob.

I noted the figures for 'graft and corruption' in the way that medical services were funded and if they are even close to accurate, how can such a pass have arisen? Such a degree of waste is unforgiveable and if that is why there is such railing against 'socialised medicine' I can well understand it.

To me, mind you, that speaks that there is something very wrong in the implementation rather than something wrong with the basic idea.

Starting to see why we're so pissed now, eh? LOL

 

[Big Don]

Don't other people also deserve health care, an education, housing, and to be treated with respect?

Yes, but, no one else deserves to be coerced to pay for the above.

 

[Steve]

Yes, but, no one else deserves to be coerced to pay for the above.

That's debatable.

 

[Big Don]

That's debatable.

Is it? Mail me a check for my rent and dinner then...

 

[Steve]

Is it? Mail me a check for my rent and dinner then...

Haha. How about you try to leave the restaurant without paying for your dinner, telling them that they have no right to coerce you into paying.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I just sign the bill over to Bernanke.

 

[Archangel M]

Paying for something you consumed is far different from the gvt forcing your neighbor to pay for your groceries.