Reclaiming Tai Chi

You're not alone! Everyone knows push hands has moving step push hands. In fact if you read the OP, I bring it up and talk about it. I also explain how to incorporate it into the ratings system, as well as other kinds of push hands. Why do you feel alone?


You're right, but that has nothing to do with the ratings system.

Confucian thought did not oppose competition. It had a precise model for contest governed by virtue, and that model was archery. Analects 3.7 says: 「君子無所爭,必也射乎!揖讓而升,下而飲,其爭也君子。」 The gentleman does not contend, except perhaps in archery. Even then he bows and yields as he ascends, and drinks with his rival after descending; his contest is that of a gentleman. The contest is real, because the target is hit or missed. But the conduct surrounding it is ritualised, so that winning does not license any means.

Analects 3.16 goes further: 「射不主皮,為力不同科,古之道也。」 In archery, piercing the hide is not the main thing, because men’s strength differs; this was the ancient way. Read in its usual sense, this is a scoring principle. Ritual archery deliberately did not reward raw penetrating power. It rewarded accuracy and form, because rewarding power would have measured the wrong thing.

This is the most exact classical parallel to the problem of competitive push hands. A rule set that awards the match to whoever ends up outside the circle is 主皮: it scores penetration. Taiji’s own classics make the opposite claim, that 四兩撥千斤 four ounces deflect a thousand pounds is the point and that winning by superior strength is 非關學力而有為也 “not something acquired by learning”.

A contest that rewards what the art says it does not teach is not testing the art. So let us not promote anything-goes in push hands. The ratings system is an attempt to come up with a different, if not better solution. A better solution would be interesting!
Your assumption is that push hands qualifies as an art unto itself. I don’t believe it does. I think too much emphasis is placed on it in general. A fork or chopsticks both get the meal to the mouth but neither is absolutely necessary as multiple implements can accomplish the same goal. Thus we dont praise the implement but rather the meal they deliver.
 
Your assumption is that push hands qualifies as an art unto itself. I don’t believe it does. I think too much emphasis is placed on it in general. A fork or chopsticks both get the meal to the mouth but neither is absolutely necessary as multiple implements can accomplish the same goal. Thus we dont praise the implement but rather the meal they deliver.
I am not sure if I am willing to accept that characterization as I have extensively quoted the source material and Chinese research papers on the subject, but leaving that aside: given the limited amount of attention the community has seen fit to assign to it in general and given the clear problem that competitive push hands has exposed compared to traditional push hands, a ratings system on its own could be seen as an extension of the problem. In what ways can we mitigate the problems that have arisen in competitive push hands, given that we have no other choice but to do so or lose control of the mandate over what goes into a tournament or competition anyway?

In a sense, this is an issue that many taijiquan players will never encounter! Running a tournament, promoting a lineage, and promoting the art, teaching the art to others and spreading the art. If we are just talking about practicing we don't need to worry about competitive push hands at all.
 
Taijiquan had a straight punch, hook punch, elbow strike, palm strike, front kick. And an application of block parry punch has a leg lock with an elbow or for arm to the chest, or an uppercut
Agree with you 100% on this. The problem is nobody want to talk about those in Taiji discussion thread.
 
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I am not sure if I am willing to accept that characterization as I have extensively quoted the source material and Chinese research papers on the subject, but leaving that aside: given the limited amount of attention the community has seen fit to assign to it in general and given the clear problem that competitive push hands has exposed compared to traditional push hands, a ratings system on its own could be seen as an extension of the problem. In what ways can we mitigate the problems that have arisen in competitive push hands, given that we have no other choice but to do so or lose control of the mandate over what goes into a tournament or competition anyway?

In a sense, this is an issue that many taijiquan players will never encounter! Running a tournament, promoting a lineage, and promoting the art, teaching the art to others and spreading the art. If we are just talking about practicing we don't need to worry about competitive push hands at all.
I confess that I give very little thought to competitive push hands.
 
Is it more important to train "Taiji application" than to train "PH"? In this video, "leg skill" is used in PH.

If Taiji PH doesn't allow to do Taiji application, Taiji PH will make no sense.

 
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if we make the assumption that we are playing one "chord" and we don't have chord progressions, key changes, etc., when we do push hands, we have already lost the plot. it's possible to view and use push hands as a sort of clinch range "external" skill, but then we've missed 99% of what it's for.
 
if we make the assumption that we are playing one "chord" and we don't have chord progressions, key changes, etc., when we do push hands, we have already lost the plot. it's possible to view and use push hands as a sort of clinch range "external" skill, but then we've missed 99% of what it's for.
Which method should you learn first?

1. How to punch through opponent's guard?
2. How to punch with full body unification?

You can learn 1 in 1 day. You can only master 2 after several years.

What's the usage to develop a 100% perfect Taiji engine but without any application? Should you lean the application first, you then enhance your Taiji engine at the same time or afterward?

Application experience can only be accumulated during the young age. Perfect Taiji engine can be developed for the rest of your life.
 
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probably there is no other way b/c the engine is too counterintuitive.

I think the strawman everyone beats up is push hands done by people who know no technique (from wrestling, boxing, jiu-jitsu, etc.) and also have no engine. so they learn something else. but this is just beating up people who are beginners at something. if people don't understand martial arts or taijiquan and they call it taijiquan, there is no reason to be upset at an overloaded label.
 
have no engine.
I have always believed "application first and enhancement later" approach.

A perfect Taiji engine may spend more than 10 years to develop it.

The preying mantis system develops speed first and body unification later. The 1st Ben Bu form is for speed. the 2nd Lan Jie form is for body unification (praying mantis engine).

Just received this Taiji video this morning. He uses "application first and engine enhancement later" approach. His "body unification - all body parts move and stop at the same time" is pretty good from this video.

 
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As I asked -
“Same Trick said:
engage in Taijiquan combat ?”

Which I believe sounds as combat between taijiquan enthusiasts, that of course just use the TJQ principle of maximum 4 ounce, there is hardly even a fight, so the absence of fight may perhaps count as ending fight ???


(Damn everything get bolded even if just intended to bold a specific part)
... that's really rather bold of you.
 
Two Taiji masters met in a challenge match. Nobody won. They started to discuss the pros and cons of push hands and TJQ principles in general. Both fell asleep after three hours.

:p
Two Taiji masters met in a challenge match. Nobody wanted to make the initial move. Both died by starvation.

xxxx.webp
 
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