Don't other people also deserve health care, an education, housing, and respect?

[Archangel M]

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
...
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

-Thomas Jefferson

"America" is not about GETTING WHAT I DESERVE. It's about having the freedom to make of yourself what you will depending on how hard you want to work for it. Our Pioneer and/or immigrant ancestors would smack us upside the heads.

While I do not think we need to do away with "safety nets", some people appear to want to provide everybody with hammocks.

 

[Carol]

While I do not think we need to do away with "safety nets", some people appear to want to provide everybody with hammocks.

And cars. Complete with full insurance and repair costs, all paid for by Da Commonwealth.

 

[Archangel M]

And cars. Complete with full insurance and repair costs, all paid for by Da Commonwealth.

And internet too right?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

And internet too right?

It's a right in some European nations.....

 

[Sukerkin]

It is a sad truth that Capitalism does not work without government intervention in markets. It is also a sad truth that an overly centralised economy does not work either as manual regulation cannot replicate the responsiveness of markets (even when those markets are not actually 'free' at all).

I spent a lot of years studying Economics and was most disturbed to find that there is no perfect way to organise money and labour to give a 'steady state' decent outcome for everyone.

Communism does not function well due to inefficiencies introduced by lags in information and distribution of resources (and greed from those in positions of power).

Capitalism does not work well because over time those who have manipulated events to their advantage (and the disadvantage of others) gather wealth into fewer and fewer hands and act to extract that wealth from the circular flow of the segment of the macro economy of which they are part. This means that those often looked to as shining examples of 'wealth creators' are more realistically acting to siphon real wealth out of the economy. This action means that a disproportionate financial burden falls upon those least able to respond (whether via tax or the simple cost of living) and over time causes an ever increasing disconnect between actual contribution and actual reward. More crucially, it induces an ever widening gap between the very wealthy and the very poor and, despite empassioned protests to the contrary, other than those cases of purposeful 'leachdom', the ordinary person not born into 'money' has no control over their fiscal fate (being paper boats tossed about in a sea of luck).

 

[Sukerkin]

It's a right in some European nations.....

You need to add the word 'theoretical' into that. It is also the case that electricity and gas supplies are a 'right' - doesn't mean everyone gets them tho.

 

[Carol]

And internet too right?

At the state level, I think its just cell phones.

 

[Steve]

Please tell me that you guys are kidding. Don said something silly, I respond in kind and then all hell breaks lose.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Used to be, only water, food and shelter were fundamental human rights.
In addition to those and free speech, education, and privacy, Internet access is a fundamental human right in at least 4 nations. (France) (Estonia) (Finland) (Greece)
Expectations are that within 10 years the UN will be insisting on it for everyone.

Oh and health care, and respect, and someone to pick up after you, and someone to clean your home, and cable tv, and a flat screen tv, and a computer and a cell phone and...... starting to get expensive for the people who actually you know, produce.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think we've reached a point where the general public is realizing that the government is completely cancerous and needs to be removed. This is resulting in a general hysteria where a great many are deciding that government cannot ever work...EVER! I don't think this is the case despite believing that we probably need to pull the entire edifice down and start over.

There are some things that I think our society needs. These are things that probably need to be addressed in a new Constitutional Convention after we send our politicians packing and prosecute/lock up/execute the sick predatory elite that feel like they can steal trillions, kill millions for the war profits, and generally rape the Earth of its resources with the power of usury.

Before this happens, the wheels are going to come off this crazy train and we are going to learn just how much we need each other.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Might be right. Hope you aint though. Anarchy isn't something I care to experience first hand.



Let me look at the OP again....

Do people deserve health care. Maybe.....how much?
Now, before anyone takes this the wrong way, let me rephrase the question.
Do people deserve food? Maybe. Water, yes. Basic sustenance, yes. A bottle of Dom and a Homar Lobster, not unless they are paying. But, lets back up.

Water, yes. But if they live in a desert, miles from water, should we pay to truck it in?
Food, yes, but again, if they live in an area that can't support life should we truck it in?
Or should we do as Sam Kinison said and send them UHauls?

Where is the line between helping to survive and enabling to leech?

Lets go back to health care.
Someone's in a car accident, get the paramedics in, get them to the ER, save their life if at all possible. Cover every band aid for every skinned knee, provide free aspirin and cough drops, that may be pushing it a bit. Especially if they engage in activities that almost ensure they'll be high risk. I don't know if I should pay for a life long smokers lung cancer treatments...or a cutters hobby. Some times as hard as it is, you have to cut costs and focus on what you can save.

Do people deserve an education?
Yes. But they must make use of what is offered. The United States today offers 12 years of education. There is no reason at all that after 12 years in school, that someone can't read, write, speak English and know enough math to balance a check book and make change. Unless they don't bother to use what is offered to them. I realize that not everyone is a genius, and that some kids need extra help. I don't begrudge them that. However, they must make use of it. If they don't, adding extra years on is a waste of time and money that can be better spent on someone who will use it.

Do people deserve housing.
No. They deserve shelter. My definition of shelter is simple, a place out of the elements where one can be safe, warm and dry. Housing and homes are more elaborate. Shelter to me is a barracks. Housing is an apartment, and a home is a private dwelling. People deserve shelter, but it's not my job to make their house payments for them.
Part of shelter to me includes a clean place to wash up. That's a shower, not a jetted hot tub.
Part of shelter is a place to pee. That's a community rest room, not a bidet with cushy seat and silk TP.
Part of shelter is clean water to both drink and bath. It's not Bottled from Mountain Springs.
Part of shelter is clothing to wear. That's not designer label name brand stuff.


Do people deserve respect?
Only if they deserve it. I have no respect for the life long smoker who won't quit despite having serious health problems, who refuses change, to take care of themselves. I have no respect for the drop out who thinks reading is for chumps. I have no respect for the 3rd generation welfare who is too busy watching Oprah to look for a job. (all 3 are people I know btw)

I have respect for anyone who works hard and smart, who puts in effort, who takes care of themselves, who put forth effort to improve their lot in life. Respect is earned, and it is lost by our actions and non actions.


Now, having said all this, here is the question Arnisidor didn't ask.

Who's responsibility is it to provide the things we deserve?

I see it as my responsibility to provide it to me, through whatever legal means is available to me. For me, I work, I earn an income, and I spend that income on what I deserve. I'm an adult, it's my responsibility to provide for my basic needs. When I was a kid, it was my parents responsibility to provide for my basic needs. Those needs didn't include a tv set, a phone, a computer or a candy bar.

If I live in filth, whose fault is that? Especially if the place wasn't dirty when I got there? My city picks up the trash every week. No reason to collect it inside for months. How many slums are there where if the people in them picked up the trash they could be beautiful? More than a few I'm sure. Ever notice that most slums are also government subsidized?

People don't take care of, or value, that which is just given to them. That's why more lottery winners are broke within a few years.

We are so fixated on 'helping' that we 'help' them right into dependence. That is where the waste comes in. Go buy crab legs at the supermarket...you pick every last bit of meat out of them. At the buffet? You don't try and get every last bit, you just go back for more.

We don't need more housing programs, more welfare, more free anything. We need programs that teach people how to be responsible, how to become self sufficient, how to save and how to invest. That will cure poverty, solve the home crisis, fix the economy and move us forward.

It's not my responsibility to feed you when you are perfectly capable of feeding yourself.

Do that, and we can free up Billions of dollars to help out the people who really really need it, who get lost in the bloated system, and who I really do want to see helped.


I'm not against helping people. I'm against wasting those efforts, doing it illegally, and doing it ineffectively. There's a difference. I really hope I've cleared up any misconceptions my earlier posts have made.

 

[Archangel M]

Bob for President!

Couldn't have said it better myself Bob.

As a tangent. Cigs are about what..$5 a pack?

2 pack a day habit-$300+ a month? Thats a car payment. Or at least a good chunk of a health plan payment. What about that cell-phone bill, cable TV and those new rims you just have to have for your car?

It's interesting to see what people can find the money for and what they can't.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'd love to be in a position to pay $100k a year, but not if I'm only making $101k.

Ya know Bob... this is my issue with this as well... Now, one could argue that I'm "Rich" because I own a car and a motorcycle, and I have me a Videogame system and a computer... And it's true, I'm better off than many, because I do. And when things get truly desperate, I'll sell them off, as I have always done in the past. BUT...

I'm STRUGGLING now to keep my home, keep gas in said vehicle, and put food in my belly. Often I'm eating 20 cent packages of Ramen, because it's what I have the cash to pay for that week. I have a decent "grownup" job, (meaning its not Clerking or Fast food, but a job in a professional envrionment) I'm educated, BUT... I also got educated into a career I was told "Will Always be in demand, and will pay great" that has a HUGE amount of unemployment in and only a tiny percentage of those employed in the field are earning what they are worth... So be it. The point is, I accept all that as my "Fault" or possibly "Responsibilty" depending on how you look at it... and I can't justify in my mind that I should be forced to make my situation worse because someone else wants to make me provide for someone who is in a worse position than me. I do my best to help the people I can, in the ways that I can, but I'm sorry... I need to look out for myself and my own first. There's no damn way Jeff or Obama or even my Hippy Reletives are going to convince me I am better off not eating for 3 days so that some dude named Tony from Topeka can have his cough checked out. I'm sorry... but that guy is outside my Monkeysphere.

Ok, that was a long *** rant for what I wanted to say. Bottom line is... Im Getting by, should I not, in order to help someone else? And once I am no longer getting by, should someone else be put into the same position to help me? And once they do, should I not, in order to help someone else? And once I am no longer getting by, should someone else be put into the same position to help me... ad nausem?

 

[Carol]

What is the real cost of all these programs?


BOSTON - May 2009: At a time when the Commonwealth is strapped for cash, the Governor starts issuing Commonwealth-paid cars to welfare recipients.

Gov. Deval Patrick’s free wheels for welfare recipients program is revving up despite the stalled economy, as the keys to donated cars loaded with state-funded insurance, repairs and even AAA membership are handed out to get them to work.
But the program - fueled by a funding boost despite the state’s fiscal crash - allows those who end up back on welfare to keep the cars anyway.

SALEM, NH - July 2009: When was the last time you heard a smaller car dealership was doing well?

Garofalo says his customer mix is heavily weighted with Massachusetts customers because aside from a sales tax, customers there pay a 30 percent cigar tax as well.

A car dealer down the street is also having a good season. Salem Ford Hyundai is less than a mile from the Massachusetts border.

BOSTON - August 1, 2009: Sales tax rate increases by 25 percent.

The sales tax in Massachusetts will increase 25 percent on August 1, now that Gov. Patrick has signed a state budget bill for the fiscal year that begins Wednesday.

SALEM, NH - August 15, 2009: Mass. residents take their money elsewhere

Some Massachusetts consumers, frustrated by the recent sales tax hike, say they are driving miles out of their way to shopping centers in tax-free New Hampshire for their back-to-school needs.

She...estimates she will spend close to $1,000 in New Hampshire, money she usually would have spent at the local stores in North Reading.

BOSTON - October 2009: The Mass. Retailers Association and the Mass. Dept. of Revenue confirms: retail sales are down, and tax revenue is down throughout the Commonwealth.

Responding to a survey by the Retailers Association of Massachusetts, store owners said their sales dropped an average of 24 percent in August compared with the previous year.

The state Department of Revenue released a report on Friday that also showed a double-digit drop in retail sales. In September, when the state collects most of August’s sales tax revenue, sales tax collections fell 13.9 percent from the same time a year ago when the extra money from the tax hike is taken out of the calculation.

DOVER, NH - November 2009: New Hampshire Retailers Association has better news

The statistics released on Tuesday indicate 47 percent of RMANH members surveyed reported their sales so far in 2009 were the same as or better than last year, and 57 percent replied they expect their holiday sales to be better or the same as last year

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/r...r_poor_fuel_road_rage/srvc=home&position=also

http://www.nhpr.org/node/26132

http://www.wbur.org/2009/06/29/state-budget-2

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/08/15/mass_shoppers_avoiding_sales_tax/

http://www.patriotledger.com/busine...sales-have-slumped-since-state-sales-tax-hike

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091112/GJNEWS_01/711129759

 

[Bruno@MT]

28800 posts, and (presumably) gone because of a silly argument. So sad.
This is why I try not to get emotionally involved in the study.

 

[SensibleManiac]

I don't know where to begin.

Guys, I think what was meant by this thread is:
Doesn't everyone deserve health care, meaning if they are sick, suffering or dying and it can be prevented, shouldn't everyone deserve this?

An education? many people can't read. Doesn't anyone who wants an education deserve it?

Shelter is a human need, shouldn't everyone have access to it?

And respect, simply respect as a human being treated with human dignity.

Now, a book can be written concerning this topic, but we aren't talking about mansions and creating a welfare state.

Simply put, there are many people who don't want to work, but there are also MANY people on the street who are ill, be it mentally or physically and who aren't able to take care of themselves.
One of the saddest things I ever saw was a report on a homeless kid who had cancer and was dying and was homeless and dying on the streets of I believe it was Chicago. Heartbreaking.

I know what it's like not to be able to afford an education despite wanting it, did I let it stop me? No, but it did take me alot longer and because of that didn't allow me to get as far as I could have, am I bitter, no because I take responsibility for my life and move forward but the truth is that I do believe all people deserve more.

Housing? Let's not say that all peope deserve mansions, I wouldn't want to live in one anyway, but should that mean that people don't deserve a human need like shelter. And NO a box doesn't qualify.

Again it comes down to human dignity.

Now what if I told you that all this is not that impossible.

The truth is that we simply could provide all that right now for all people in the world.
It's not that difficult.

As a matter of fact I strongly believe that the world will end up this way eventually.
Is this a Utopian dream, no, there will always be problems in the world and conflicts will arise, but the world would be a better place if all the basic necessities were provided.

How? it all starts with FREE sustainable power.
Sustainable being a key word. Solar, wind, water and geothermal energy.
From there manufacturing would become more limited in terms of variation and almost completely taken over by machines.

I personally have worked hardest in my life for things that brought me no money, therefore I don't see why people wouldn't work hardest for the benefit of all people.

Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who is poor and uneducated is that way because they are lazy, most are just conditioned to be this way.

An excellent book that discusses the statistics involved in success demonstrates that most successful people are that way because of their surroundings or conditions first, this doesn't mean that you can't break free of the conditions in you life, it just means that when the conditions are there to help you and you have some talent and you have desire you are much more likely to succeed.
There are exceptions to this rule but they are just that exceptions.

Now does this all mean I am a socialist.

Well I have seen the abuse that takes place, (I am Canadian) in our medical system firsthand. I have seen people who abuse their priviledges and yes I have seen the waste of resources that this costs. Welfare bums and drunks who take ambulances for no reason and end up in the hospital the beginning of the month because they just got paid.

But I have also seen the plus side , I have never paid to see a doctor, much of any medication I've had to take has been paid for, the government has a mandatory drug insurance in the province of Quebec. If your employer doesn't proviide this insurance then you must be insured by the province. This insurance pays for the bulk of medications.

You don't have to pay for an ambulance if you ever need it either. (not that I ever have).
The point being that socialism isn't all evil.

Comments?

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that society should provide health care and education to those that want it and at the same time protect basic civil liberties. It is possible and just because we don't see that happening now, we can't completely discount government's role in doing this. The problem that I see is that many of us are choosing to ignore our humanity in favor of ideological propaganda campaigns that serve hidden purposes.

The arguments for providing both of these are fairly straightforward and systems that really work well are not hard to find. The fact that both completely suck is suspect, because someone WANTED it that way. There's a greater purpose being served when so many people are dumb, sick, and afraid.

 

[Big Don]

Don't other people also deserve health care, an education, housing, and to be treated with respect?

I'm gonna change my answer.
No, not everyone deserves to be treated with respect. Respect is earned by respectful behavior. Some people deserve to be treated with contempt.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob for President!

Couldn't have said it better myself Bob.

As a tangent. Cigs are about what..$5 a pack?

2 pack a day habit-$300+ a month? Thats a car payment. Or at least a good chunk of a health plan payment. What about that cell-phone bill, cable TV and those new rims you just have to have for your car?

It's interesting to see what people can find the money for and what they can't.

I'm seriously considering a real, all out run.....but that's another thread I'll start in a few weeks.....

 

[Deaf Smith]

Don't other people also deserve health care, an education, housing, and to be treated with respect?

Deserve? Is that a basic right? Some sort of guarantee? Or is it, well, everyone SHOULD have these things if they work hard for them?

Treated with respect, yea if they earn it, everyone should be. All the rest you are asking for? TANSTAAFL.

TANSTAAFL, arnisador, TANSTAAFL. If you expect everyone to works hard to fork in to make sure everyone, reguardless if they work or not, get all that above you will find the free lunch. And there ain't one arnisador. Never was.

And to try to give a free lunch to everyone is to bring total bankruptcy to those who do work and contribute.

Deaf