Disabled students as black belts

[SahBumNimRush]

What are you using to support this position? Is this your opinion or is there data to suggest why the majority of people are taking TKD?

While I have no data to back it up, annectodetally, I find Glenn's statement to be true; at least in my dojang. Kids come in because it sounds fun, they see stuff on TV or the movies, or their parents bring them in for various reasons. Teens and Adults, by in large, come in for health/fitness/self defense reasons, most are not looking to be the next heavyweight champion.

I will admit that those seeking self-defense training are in-directly (or directly perhaps) looking to learn how to fight, but those people are still the minority in my class. I'm sure depending on how you market your school, you may attract specific audiences to your classes though.

However, no matter their reason for joining, they all learn how to handle themselves in a physical altercation in my class. Some sooner and easier than others.. .

 

[Kong Soo Do]

While I have no data to back it up, annectodetally, I find Glenn's statement to be true; at least in my dojang. Kids come in because it sounds fun, they see stuff on TV or the movies, or their parents bring them in for various reasons. Teens and Adults, by in large, come in for health/fitness/self defense reasons, most are not looking to be the next heavyweight champion.

I will admit that those seeking self-defense training are in-directly (or directly perhaps) looking to learn how to fight, but those people are still the minority in my class. I'm sure depending on how you market your school, you may attract specific audiences to your classes though.

However, no matter their reason for joining, they all learn how to handle themselves in a physical altercation in my class. Some sooner and easier than others.. .

I appreciate your input. I can fully see the children falling into this category.

 

[dancingalone]

But that is not what you said. You said this:

Yes, there does seem to be a break in the flow of thought there. I'll try to clarify.

The highest bodily expression of any martial art is to engage physically with one (or more) person and to seek to defeat him using the tactics and skills we have learned. It's the culmination of what we have studied for, using innate and developed physical and mental assets all within a span of minutes if not seconds. Things like perception, comprehension, decision-making, response, endurance, toughness, willpower, and so on. We develop these qualities a few at a time through disciplined practice, but we never get to utilize them all except when confronting another skilled martial artist/fighter in an effort to best him.

I argue that accordingly this is the capstone of the physical aspect of martial arts and in some respects the mental part too.

Now can you train for a lesser goal intentionally or otherwise? Of course, but then you're missing out on much of the reason for martial arts in the first place. If you're into healthy exercise, I think there are lots of other avenues more targeted towards cardio work, towards suppleness, towards strength building, or towards whatever health benefit we want to derive. If you're into spiritual development, there are probably better sources than the average TKD instructor. Martial arts can help someone reach those goals, but really there's much extraneous stuff to sift through in the process.

So why not get back to basics? What is a martial art, taekwondo included, for? I argue fighting first and foremost.

Not everyone is looking for sparring, fighting ability or application of the stuff we practice. I would even go so far as to say most people are not interested in this. Most people, which are white and color belt beginners, are there to get some exercise, lose weight, improve concentration or coordination, gain self confidence, etc. They are not there to learn how to fight. Even the ones who are focused on these things, when young, often times continue their training in their older years for different reasons, health being the biggest one.

I don't necessarily disagree with the accuracy of what you are saying. I do feel somewhat however that we have lost our way by becoming defacto health clubs and daycares.

 

[lifespantkd]

While I have no data to back it up, annectodetally, I find Glenn's statement to be true; at least in my dojang. Kids come in because it sounds fun, they see stuff on TV or the movies, or their parents bring them in for various reasons. Teens and Adults, by in large, come in for health/fitness/self defense reasons, most are not looking to be the next heavyweight champion.

None of the new students in a family class for beginners that I teach started practicing Taekwondo in order to learn self defense. I know this for a fact because I ask each student to complete a new student survey so that I can get to know them. In part of that survey, I ask them to put a check mark by various aspects of Taekwondo that represent what they are interested in learning. Self-defense is on that list. So far, no one has checked it--not one adult for him- or herself and not one adult on behalf of his or her child. While this is hardly a randomized national survey and people's motivations for practicing Taekwondo can (and often do) change over time, it certainly lends support to what my overall impression has been: if you market to the general public (not blatantly to a niche subpopulation), most people are not initially interested in learning self defense. Of course, that doesn't have to solely be what drives your curriculum. But, it's essential to know what motivates a learner if your want your teaching to be effective, perhaps especially if you think it's important that students eventually learn something that they're not initially interested in learning, such as self defense.

Cynthia

 

[puunui]

I don't necessarily disagree with the accuracy of what you are saying. I do feel somewhat however that we have lost our way by becoming defacto health clubs and daycares.

Believe me, I understand how you feel. It is disappointing to me as well. But you have to roll with the times. Of course, you can try to continue to be a dinosaur and stress hard core self defense training to be ready for the bogeyman that never comes, but you will end up with a very tiny pool from which to develop students. Which may not be a bad thing. Afterall, the Okinawan practitioners did not run large classes. They practiced in their backyards with a couple few people. Adopt their mentality, and you will invariably adopt their student numbers as well, which is where I suspect the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport anti this or that types are operating, with no school or a tiny school operating out of someone's garage, shaking their fists at the moon and decrying the commercialization of the martial arts, as the successful dojang operators drive to the other side of town in automobiles which cost about as much or more than the houses of the anti types.

You have a commercial dojang now. Which road do you want to head down, the path that leads to two hard core students, or the one that leads to 500 happy smiling ones whose positive attitudes their parents credit to you?

 

[puunui]

While this is hardly a randomized national survey and people's motivations for practicing Taekwondo can (and often do) change over time, it certainly lends support to what my overall impression has been: if you market to the general public (not blatantly to a niche subpopulation), most people are not initially interested in learning self defense.

If this is news to someone, then I would say that that person is grossly out of touch with what is going on out there as far as the martial arts and the public at large. This is obvious to anyone who is out there, young old parent child, it doesn't really matter. Some people are interested in primarily self defense, but they are not generally attracted to taekwondo schools. Which is fine with me, to tell the truth. Taekwondo or any art really, does not have to be everything for everyone.

 

[mastercole]

Believe me, I understand how you feel. It is disappointing to me as well. But you have to roll with the times. Of course, you can try to continue to be a dinosaur and stress hard core self defense training to be ready for the bogeyman that never comes, but you will end up with a very tiny pool from which to develop students. Which may not be a bad thing. Afterall, the Okinawan practitioners did not run large classes. They practiced in their backyards with a couple few people. Adopt their mentality, and you will invariably adopt their student numbers as well, which is where I suspect the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport anti this or that types are operating, with no school or a tiny school operating out of someone's garage, shaking their fists at the moon and decrying the commercialization of the martial arts, as the successful dojang operators drive to the other side of town in automobiles which cost about as much or more than the houses of the anti types.

You have a commercial dojang now. Which road do you want to head down, the path that leads to two hard core students, or the one that leads to 500 happy smiling ones whose positive attitudes their parents credit to you?

The solution is simple for me. Why not have both? Teach the best you can for the masses, tolerate it and search out the students with potential, invited those to intense training with other like minded students. That is what I do. They in turn set a great example for your regular students to follow.

 

[mastercole]

The disabled should be able to climb as high as they can in Taekwondo. We have examples of that today.

I know a guy who is missing part of his brain. Amazingly enough, at his last Dan test, the testing panel decided to skip him from 2nd to 4th Dan.

 

[mastercole]

I suppose there are those who, having no students of their own, feel the need or desire to judge other people's students. For me personally, if an instructor chooses to promote someone to whatever rank, then I feel we should respect that decision. Otherwise, we end up being the nosy neighbor who constantly criticizes what others are doing around the block. I don't care what my neighbor's lawn looks like, or how they raise their kids. That's their business.

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C.S. Lewis

 

[SahBumNimRush]

None of the new students in a family class for beginners that I teach started practicing Taekwondo in order to learn self defense. I know this for a fact because I ask each student to complete a new student survey so that I can get to know them. In part of that survey, I ask them to put a check mark by various aspects of Taekwondo that represent what they are interested in learning. Self-defense is on that list. So far, no one has checked it--not one adult for him- or herself and not one adult on behalf of his or her child. While this is hardly a randomized national survey and people's motivations for practicing Taekwondo can (and often do) change over time, it certainly lends support to what my overall impression has been: if you market to the general public (not blatantly to a niche subpopulation), most people are not initially interested in learning self defense. Of course, that doesn't have to solely be what drives your curriculum. But, it's essential to know what motivates a learner if your want your teaching to be effective, perhaps especially if you think it's important that students eventually learn something that they're not initially interested in learning, such as self defense.

Cynthia

I think that it is really important to understand why your students are joining your class and what they expect to gain out of participating, so I applaud your effort to do so.

However, in the 40 years the we've had a school in this small town, we've had many who joined for SD reasons. I could be that we are one of the only "reputable" martial arts schools in a very small town, so people don't have a lot of options if they are seeking self-defense skills. We've had battered/raped women, law enforcement (although not so much SD oriented), bullied children/teens/adults, and parents enrolling their teens prior to going off to college on their own; that have all joined for the primary reason of learning how to defend themselves.

While this is still the minority in reasons for joining, I cannot state, like you have, that it has never happened.

**As a side note, we've also had many students who've been attacked outside of class, and all of them have successfully defended themselves. Many have been our female students against a male aggressor.**

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

While this is the taekwondo section, I thought this video was appropriate. It is a kendo documentary, but one of the people that they focus on is a one armed kendoka. Very inspiring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6umoFjDMo&feature=related

 

[Twin Fist]

this is the biggest bunch of elitest snobbery i have seen on this board.

which is where I suspect the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport anti this or that types are operating, with no school or a tiny school operating out of someone's garage, shaking their fists at the moon and decrying the commercialization of the martial arts, as the successful dojang operators drive to the other side of town in automobiles which cost about as much or more than the houses of the anti types.

You have a commercial dojang now. Which road do you want to head down, the path that leads to two hard core students, or the one that leads to 500 happy smiling ones whose positive attitudes their parents credit to you?

 

[Twin Fist]

The disabled should be able to climb as high as they can in Taekwondo. We have examples of that today.

I know a guy who is missing part of his brain. Amazingly enough, at his last Dan test, the testing panel decided to skip him from 2nd to 4th Dan.

seriously? you are not clever, everyone knows what you just did

 

[dancingalone]

None of the new students in a family class for beginners that I teach started practicing Taekwondo in order to learn self defense. I know this for a fact because I ask each student to complete a new student survey so that I can get to know them.

Your sample population already has the type of student pre-selected to a great extent. As Sabumnim Rush has stated, marketing can influence the type of students that come in the door.

As do things like location and facilities. I've hired a physical trainer who is young and very fit to greet prospects. As a result, I believe we're signing a higher rate of people who might eventually be interested in learning an elite level of martial arts once they assimilate and see there is more to TKD than just getting or maintaining physical fitness. I've also erected six permanent hanging heavy bags and plan on adding a boxing ring which I think will add to the serious look of the school.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Believe me, I understand how you feel. It is disappointing to me as well. But you have to roll with the times. Of course, you can try to continue to be a dinosaur and stress hard core self defense training to be ready for the bogeyman that never comes, but you will end up with a very tiny pool from which to develop students. Which may not be a bad thing. Afterall, the Okinawan practitioners did not run large classes. They practiced in their backyards with a couple few people. Adopt their mentality, and you will invariably adopt their student numbers as well, which is where I suspect the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport anti this or that types are operating, with no school or a tiny school operating out of someone's garage, shaking their fists at the moon and decrying the commercialization of the martial arts, as the successful dojang operators drive to the other side of town in automobiles which cost about as much or more than the houses of the anti types.

You have a commercial dojang now. Which road do you want to head down, the path that leads to two hard core students, or the one that leads to 500 happy smiling ones whose positive attitudes their parents credit to you?

Generally, the only part of commercialization that most of us, KKW or not, decry is obvious money grabs. I have no problem with a commercial school, but I do have a problem with the commercialization of the art.

It isn't just taekwondo or the martial arts that suffer this either. Commercialization generally kills what makes a product unique and good unless the commercial entities that purvey it are very careful to keep that from happening. Look at the original Scion cars. They were marketed in a unique way and very thoughtfully designed. And so they became popular. Then Toyota produced the second generation, which, while still good cars, had none of the appeal or thoughtfulness of the first generation. Now they have an entire division that makes cars that few people want that competes with their bread and butter compacts (Yaris and Corolla).

I think that a large commercial school has the means to do great things for the art and for the students. Even one that uses a "McDojo" style business model.

It isn't being large and successful that people decry. It is forgetting what made the art special and why you started teaching it in the first place.

 

[dancingalone]

The solution is simple for me. Why not have both? Teach the best you can for the masses, tolerate it and search out the students with potential, invited those to intense training with other like minded students. That is what I do. They in turn set a great example for your regular students to follow.

I've read a few of your posts on the subject with interest. Some of the Chinese schools I am familiar with do something similar also. They run a regular fun school for the masses and those that show interest and ability are invited into another class where the training is more in depth and tougher.

 

[Grenadier]

Thread closed, pending staff review.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator

 

[MJS]

Admin Note

Folks,

I don't think I have to remind anyone of the rules here. I'm sure everyone has been here long enough to know that personal shots are a forum violation. Keep the personal dislikes off the board please.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[MJS]

Admin Note

This thread is now being reopened. Please remember the rules, and keep things civil. Further disruption will result in it being reclosed.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Steve]

First, thanks to the mods for reopening this thread.

Generally, the only part of commercialization that most of us, KKW or not, decry is obvious money grabs. I have no problem with a commercial school, but I do have a problem with the commercialization of the art.

It isn't just taekwondo or the martial arts that suffer this either. Commercialization generally kills what makes a product unique and good unless the commercial entities that purvey it are very careful to keep that from happening. Look at the original Scion cars. They were marketed in a unique way and very thoughtfully designed. And so they became popular. Then Toyota produced the second generation, which, while still good cars, had none of the appeal or thoughtfulness of the first generation. Now they have an entire division that makes cars that few people want that competes with their bread and butter compacts (Yaris and Corolla).

I think that a large commercial school has the means to do great things for the art and for the students. Even one that uses a "McDojo" style business model.

It isn't being large and successful that people decry. It is forgetting what made the art special and why you started teaching it in the first place.

I agree with almost everything you've said. The only thing I'd add is, what made the art special includes transparency in what you're teaching, and integrity within the system. In other words, if you compromise the standards of the system in order to make the style accessible to a wider student base (whether that's to open it up to children or whatever), it has to be done in a way that maintains the integrity of the style.