Disabled students as black belts

[shesulsa]

The solution is simple for me. Why not have both? Teach the best you can for the masses, tolerate it and search out the students with potential, invited those to intense training with other like minded students. That is what I do. They in turn set a great example for your regular students to follow.

This comes back to something I've said many times before, stand firm with in martial arts training philosophy and will reiterate here - people come to martial arts for a myriad of reasons. I like to see people try to stretch their limits, grow, do things they never saw themselves doing. I really like to see when people understand the science behind joint manipulation, pain compliance and the overall benefit to a full curriculum. If they can make use of the material to serve their purposes and I feel they've worked REALLY hard to reach a plateau where they understand the basics, have them memorized and available to their consciousness, can be responsible with the knowledge they have and have come out on the other side improved ... what is really wrong with that? Others come for personal enrichment. Others come for self-defense. Others come to find something they can take to competition. Others come to augment their physical training either for their amateur sport of interest or their profession.

Adaption for physical ability deficits (blindness, deafness, paralysis, neurotransmission, etcetera) would be in keeping with that philosophy, would it not?

 

[shesulsa]

First, thanks to the mods for reopening this thread.


I agree with almost everything you've said. The only thing I'd add is, what made the art special includes transparency in what you're teaching, and integrity within the system. In other words, if you compromise the standards of the system in order to make the style accessible to a wider student base (whether that's to open it up to children or whatever), it has to be done in a way that maintains the integrity of the style.

I agree - is that not a good testament as to a master teacher? The ability to understand how the art works so well that you can adapt it to different situations, such as if you have a broken arm or twisted knee? Self-defense techniques from a seated position? Would that not be, instead of compromising an art, enhancing it or at least applying it from a different perspective?

The way I see it, the possible compromise would have to come in training mentally, developmentally or intellectually challenged students and exactly how the accommodations you make for them actually "reduce" the quality of their training as it applies to the art.

 

[Tez3]

Being a kendo instructor, there is no 'belt' in my class, but we do have first dan.

It would really be dependent upon the nature of the disability. A person who does not have the use of their hands would be unable to practice kendo barring some major advancement in prosthetics. On the other hand, a person without the use of their legs could at least learn to use the sword. While it isn't kendo, there is a wheel chair division in fencing.

Mental disabilities are another where I would be hesitant to just say yes/no because not all mental disabilities are the same.

Forrest Gump was mentioned in another thread. While a gent like ol' Gump might be unable to pursue theoretical physics, he'd do just dandy in martial arts. A person with a mental illness that causes them to be violent, however, I would refuse to arm with a weapon.

In short, I would say that it would be a case by case basis.

I also think that for people with disabilities, certain arts are a better fit depending upon the disability. Someone posted an article here on MT a few years back about a blind judoka. The gent was the target of an attempted mugging, but once the mugger was touching him, he had no trouble making a pretzel out of the mugger. On the other hand, striking arts might not be the best fit.

Finally, I think that we need to draw a distinction between training a disabled person and whether or not their particular disability would prevent them from earning a first dan in our system. Part of that depends upon the nature of the disability and part of it depends upon what a first dan represents in a particular school/style/org.

I'm so glad this thread has opened again as I've been dying to tell you that one of our soldiers who lost an arm in Afghan has gone to Austria to be fitted with a new prosthetic arm that he can control with his mind. It looks like he's a prospective Kendo student though I know he's more into motor biking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-16702983

 

[miguksaram]

What are you using to support this position? Is this your opinion or is there data to suggest why the majority of people are taking TKD?

I can support his opinion by using the data from my own classes. I pooled all the parents who have their kids in my classes at the health club. I currently have 32 kids. Out of that 32 kids, I have only one that signed up for the main purpose of learning fighting techniques so he can compete in competition. I have one student who was signed up to learn how to defend herself. Outside of that I have 20 students who were signed up to help improve focus and discipline. 8 students who were signed up for the purpose of exercise and 2 students that were signed up to give them something to do while their parents worked out.

I have only 5 adults in my class. None of them signed up to learn fighting skills as their main purpose. They all signed up for a different way of exercising and increase flexibility. Fighting or self-defense was more of an added perk.

So yes, not everyone signs up for the purpose of learning how to fight.

 

[miguksaram]

As an addition, out of my 32 kids, I have one high functioning autistic, one ADD and one with another form of learning disability. To answer my own question, yes, they all have a chance to make it to black belt. It just may take them a lot longer than most.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can support his opinion by using the data from my own classes. I pooled all the parents who have their kids in my classes at the health club. I currently have 32 kids. Out of that 32 kids, I have only one that signed up for the main purpose of learning fighting techniques so he can compete in competition. I have one student who was signed up to learn how to defend herself. Outside of that I have 20 students who were signed up to help improve focus and discipline. 8 students who were signed up for the purpose of exercise and 2 students that were signed up to give them something to do while their parents worked out.

I have only 5 adults in my class. None of them signed up to learn fighting skills as their main purpose. They all signed up for a different way of exercising and increase flexibility. Fighting or self-defense was more of an added perk.

So yes, not everyone signs up for the purpose of learning how to fight.

My experience and observation is the same. The classes are more fun than lifting weights or using stationary machines (stairmasters, treadmills, etc.) and the uniforms are more flattering to the average person than a lot of work out attire. Parents send their kids to MA class because the kids think its cool and it gets them up off of their buts.

One observation though is that people who take the classes are aware that it is a fighting system, so the 'not only do I get into shape, but I can learn to fight' is an appeal to some, but their primary reason for signing up is not the fighting element.

 

[puunui]

While this is the taekwondo section, I thought this video was appropriate. It is a kendo documentary, but one of the people that they focus on is a one armed kendoka. Very inspiring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6umoFjDMo&feature=related

There is a long time kendo practitioner here with no legs. He uses one arm to move around, and he holds his shinai one handed with the other. He's been around for at least 25 or more years because I remember watching a class and seeing him back then and recently saw him again at a different location.

 

[lifespantkd]

Your sample population already has the type of student pre-selected to a great extent. As Sabumnim Rush has stated, marketing can influence the type of students that come in the door.

As do things like location and facilities. I've hired a physical trainer who is young and very fit to greet prospects. As a result, I believe we're signing a higher rate of people who might eventually be interested in learning an elite level of martial arts once they assimilate and see there is more to TKD than just getting or maintaining physical fitness. I've also erected six permanent hanging heavy bags and plan on adding a boxing ring which I think will add to the serious look of the school.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I'm currently a volunteer who has just recently begun teaching an intergenerational class that is comprised of almost all brand new beginners. I don't have my own facility that conveys a particular image. But, by the very nature of the class being an intergenerational class, I agree that certain people are more likely to be interested than others. Interestingly, my information sheet about the group included a listing of various aspects of Taekwondo; self defense was on that list. Since I have just begun teaching, there's extremely little history of reported initial interest to consider. But, that's what it is so far: no one has checked "self defense" as an initial interest yet. I, however, am very interested in self defense and always have been, even when I first started learning Taekwondo--in a family class.

Cynthia

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There is a long time kendo practitioner here with no legs. He uses one arm to move around, and he holds his shinai one handed with the other. He's been around for at least 25 or more years because I remember watching a class and seeing him back then and recently saw him again at a different location.

Did he compete in shiai? Regardless, I think that it is great that he's practicing.

 

[Jason Striker II]

Anent all this, I was thinking of Ted Vollrath, who I saw demo, when back when.

http://www.bohans-family.com/Articles/vollwrath/vollwrath.htm

 

[Gemini]

In a nutshell if you have a mentally/physically disabled person as a student, can they reach a black belt in your school if they are unable to perform to the standards like non disabled students can?

This question is really no different than any other question asked with defined limitations. Once you start defining what's considered acceptable, everyone on this board is ultimately subject to fail. It's just a matter of asking the right question because we all have limitations. Especially when it focuses primarily on the physical.


I believe training is for everyone. I believe the purpose of training in an art is to try to expand our abilities both physically, and mentally and for some, even spiritually. To be a better person on multiple levels. I can say in all honesty that I have never regretted mine or anyone else's decision to promote a handicapped individual. Unfortunately, I can't say that for some other "normal" folks. Questions like these pertain to only a single aspect of what we train. Like a "Black Belt" is some ultimate goal. What about those who are physically limited but very capable of nurturing junior students? At the same time I realize I would be naive to think some people do otherwise.

 

[Steve]

This question is really no different than any other question asked with defined limitations. Once you start defining what's considered acceptable, everyone on this board is ultimately subject to fail. It's just a matter of asking the right question because we all have limitations. Especially when it focuses primarily on the physical.


I believe training is for everyone. I believe the purpose of training in an art is to try to expand our abilities both physically, and mentally and for some, even spiritually. To be a better person on multiple levels. I can say in all honesty that I have never regretted mine or anyone else's decision to promote a handicapped individual. Unfortunately, I can't say that for some other "normal" folks. Questions like these pertain to only a single aspect of what we train. Like a "Black Belt" is some ultimate goal. What about those who are physically limited but very capable of nurturing junior students? At the same time I realize I would be naive to think some people do otherwise.

I think you've redefined the question. The OP didn't ask what's acceptable, or whether someone with a defined limitation (be it a physical impairment or something else) would benefit from training. And it didn't suggest that people with a disability be precluded from training at all.

The question is, can a disabled student earn a black belt if they are unable to perform to the standards of a non-disabled student? While I don't disagree with the spirit of your post, you're answering a question that wasn't asked. It seems to me that you're really getting at whether a disabled student can benefit from training, and it sounds like we both agree that the answer is yes.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'm sure this will be an unpopular view but to me, black belt is a very personal thing. What I want out of each person wearing the belt is very different.

 

[Steve]

I'm sure this will be an unpopular view but to me, black belt is a very personal thing. What I want out of each person wearing the belt is very different.

I don't know about unpopular, but I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that your standards for black belt are arbitrary?

 

[dancingalone]

I'm sure this will be an unpopular view but to me, black belt is a very personal thing. What I want out of each person wearing the belt is very different.

On the contrary. I believe your position is actually the prevailing one.

I still believe there should be some common objective criteria that needs to be met however.

 

[ETinCYQX]

No, I'm saying I don't expect a 55 year old bb candidate to do the same things I expect a 20 year old candidate to do.

 

[Tez3]

No, I'm saying I don't expect a 55 year old bb candidate to do the same things I expect a 20 year old candidate to do.

Don't forget old and sneaky beats young and fit any day.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Sure

I'll elaborate in a minute. Doing about 90 things right now

 

[Gemini]

I think you've redefined the question.

To some degree I did, but to me it all ties in together. I don't regard a black belt as an ultimate goal as miguksaram's question indicated, but more a milestone. It's a short term objective in a long process. I also focused on the point that if a student has a limitation defined for them as to what they can achieve, they will fail. As miguksaram phrased the question, to me, there should never be such a thing as a student with limitations imposed on them. The latter part of his question "if they are unable to perform to the standards like non disabled students can". I don't know any two people who perform standards at the same level, handicapped or otherwise. Why should "handicapped" even become part of the equation.

 

[Carol]

To some degree I did, but to me it all ties in together. I don't regard a black belt as an ultimate goal as miguksaram's question indicated, but more a milestone. It's a short term objective in a long process. I also focused on the point that if a student has a limitation defined for them as to what they can achieve, they will fail. As miguksaram phrased the question, to me, there should never be such a thing as a student with limitations imposed on them. The latter part of his question "if they are unable to perform to the standards like non disabled students can". I don't know any two people who perform standards at the same level, handicapped or otherwise. Why should "handicapped" even become part of the equation.

I agree with you, and the overall sentiment. Earlier in the thread someone...I think it was Daniel...made the comment that a decision to take on a handicapped student would be made on a case by case basis. I can understand what he is trying to say, perhaps there are people with disabilities that he doesn't feel he can work with. But isn't a decision to take on any student made on a case-by-case basis? I don't think "handicapped" should be part of the equation there either. There will be students out there that aren't a fit for a school for many reasons.