Disabled students as black belts

[Tez3]

Sure

I'll elaborate in a minute. Doing about 90 things right now

If it's age you think is a handicap look at this, a 55 year old man who did the Royal Marine Commando course and earned his Green Beret, not an honorory one, he went out and trained, earnt it.
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve..._tv/s/1016727_chris_right_in_the_line_of_fire

 

[puunui]

Don't forget old and sneaky beats young and fit any day.

No it doesn't.

 

[puunui]

I don't regard a black belt as an ultimate goal as miguksaram's question indicated, but more a milestone. It's a short term objective in a long process.

A lot of people do think that the "black belt" is the ultimate goal. That's one of the reasons why so many quit after reaching that level.

 

[Steve]

To some degree I did, but to me it all ties in together. I don't regard a black belt as an ultimate goal as miguksaram's question indicated, but more a milestone. It's a short term objective in a long process. I also focused on the point that if a student has a limitation defined for them as to what they can achieve, they will fail. As miguksaram phrased the question, to me, there should never be such a thing as a student with limitations imposed on them. The latter part of his question "if they are unable to perform to the standards like non disabled students can". I don't know any two people who perform standards at the same level, handicapped or otherwise. Why should "handicapped" even become part of the equation.

Just to be clear, I agree with most of what you're saying, but where I run into problems is when you get to the point where you've essentially explained away any need for standards.

Am I the only one who sees no conflict between holding students to consistent standards and ALSO being able to understand that everyone is different?

Ultimately, if everyone who trains long enough gets a black belt, it becomes pointless.

Let me ask another question. Is there such a thing for you as a student with a limitation so severe that they cannot achieve a black belt in your school?

 

[Steve]

A lot of people do think that the "black belt" is the ultimate goal. That's one of the reasons why so many quit after reaching that level.

I would say that the problem is rapidly becoming just the opposite, where a lot of people think achieving a black belt is barely an accomplishment at all.

 

[Steve]

I agree with you, and the overall sentiment. Earlier in the thread someone...I think it was Daniel...made the comment that a decision to take on a handicapped student would be made on a case by case basis. I can understand what he is trying to say, perhaps there are people with disabilities that he doesn't feel he can work with. But isn't a decision to take on any student made on a case-by-case basis? I don't think "handicapped" should be part of the equation there either. There will be students out there that aren't a fit for a school for many reasons.

I agree with this, and I want to be clear that this in no way contradicts the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Tez3]

No it doesn't.

Please go to the nearest quartermasters dept and draw yourself out a sense of humour, it's a long standing martial arts joke, been around for years.

 

[Gemini]

Ultimately, if everyone who trains long enough gets a black belt, it becomes pointless.

Ultimately, anyone who begins training with no hope of ever having that possibility will quit, Steve. Again, a black belt is a milestone to greater things, not an ultimate goal.

Let me ask another question. Is there such a thing for you as a student with a limitation so severe that they cannot achieve a black belt in your school?

I see where you're going with this, Steve. If I say Yes, than I admit that there are limitations. If I say No, I'm a pushover and anyone who trains in my school can get a black belt because I have loose standards. Neither is accurate. As with most schools, most of my students do not reach the level of black belt. Students quit for many reasons. However, none ever because of a handicap. Any student can quit at any time or, if I feel a student no longer demonstrates a desire to continue, I may ask them to leave. But no student will ever enter my class with a predetermined limitation. Ever.

 

[puunui]

I would say that the problem is rapidly becoming just the opposite, where a lot of people think achieving a black belt is barely an accomplishment at all.

What's wrong with that? It is barely an accomplishment.

 

[puunui]

Did he compete in shiai? Regardless, I think that it is great that he's practicing.

I don't know if he competes in tournaments, but he does "spar" during class. I don't have the right words, but he is definitely going for it during class. I think it is inspiring to watch him practice. I understand he is 3rd maybe 4th dan.

 

[mastercole]

I agree with you, and the overall sentiment. Earlier in the thread someone...I think it was Daniel...made the comment that a decision to take on a handicapped student would be made on a case by case basis. I can understand what he is trying to say, perhaps there are people with disabilities that he doesn't feel he can work with. But isn't a decision to take on any student made on a case-by-case basis? I don't think "handicapped" should be part of the equation there either. There will be students out there that aren't a fit for a school for many reasons.

In 2008 I was a guest examiner at a black belt test in Virginia. There were two military veterans in the group one was missing an arm, the other (Iraqi) had a spinal cord and brain injury. Both were able to keep pace with their assigned group performing 8 taegeuk, 8 palgwe, Koryo and Kuengang, plus breaking, sparring, one-steps, basic skills, etc. I was very interested in their performance and attitude. They were both very inspiring for everyone there. After the exam, I ask the instructor what was unique about teaching these wounded warriors. He told me that they were an asset to his classes because everyone was so interested in their progress it cause the students to focus harder on their own progress. He also said that their biggest challenge was not the physical part, he said it was the mental and emotional part. They had tried to introduce other disabled friends, but most would watch and say they really had no interest, not just in Taekwondo but in things in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVBd910Mamc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdNmM88y0Y4


Having students with disabilities was not unfamiliar to me though, I have a student who started with me in 2004, still trains today, rarely misses a class with his kids. His leg was cut off in a farming accident 15 years ago. He uses a special designed titanium composite leg. But you would not know it to see him practice Taekwondo. He does everything excellent, even complex skills like badda chagi, spin back hook kick, sparring, etc. Hearing what this other instructor said made me think that this disabled student, he is one of the most dedicated students we have, is actually a big reason others work so hard at my dojang.

Later in the day at dinner, I was introduced to a US military guy that was involved in the Military Program Paralympic Division from the US Olympic Training Center who also works with the Wounded Warrior program. We got to talking and he told me about the Paralympic Conference. I was planning to attend the 2009 Olympic University leadership course at Lake Placid, however, I decided to take the one in Colorado Springs instead because it was a day longer and also had the Paralympic Conference. I am glad I attended. A number of athletes with disabilities worked with us and several sports, my favorite was Judo and working with the US Paralympic Judo Champ. There were many people involved in all aspects of training people with disabilities, especially those in the Wounded Warrior program attended. I made a lot of new relationships and learned a lot about the emotional struggles that person with disabilities encounter and what it takes to over come them. After the course I wrote letters to both the USAT and the WTF encouraging them to develop Taekwondo into a Paralympic sport.

More on the program:

So, I think everyone should have the opportunity to earn a black belt. I do not believe that every instructor is qualified to work with people who have disabilities, the psychological and emotional challenges that come with disabilities. I believe it takes special people. I don't necessarily think I am qualified, or all that capable of doing so. So a case by case choice has to be made, unfortunately. But there are conferences and courses out there, like the one at Kukkiwon's instructor academy, that help those instructors that wish to do so.

My ID badge from the conference: http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandmastercole/6794529540/in/pool-1667737@N25

 

[mastercole]

WTF Applies for Official Program of 2016 Paralympic Games


Ref.No.09/925
November 4, 2009

Mr. David Grevemberg
Executive Director
Sport and IF Relations
International Paralympic Committee (IPC)
Via e-mail: [email protected]

Re: Declaration of intent of the World Taekwondo Federation
- For inclusion in the 2016 Paralympic Games Sports Programme

Dear Mr. Grevemberg,

On behalf of President Dr. Choue, I am pleased to submit the Declaration of Intent of the World Taekwondo Federation to apply for taekwondo inclusion in the 2016 Paralympic Games Sports Programme together with the letter of Intent signed by Dr. Choue. I am at your disposal should you have questions regarding this application.

This document will also be sent to you via express mail shortly to enable you to receive it within a couple of days.

Sincerely yours,

Jin Suk Yang
Secretary General

Encl.

Also.............. http://en.mastaekwondo.com/2011/07/international-taekwondo-symposium/

 

[miguksaram]

The question was geared to ask exactly what it asked, can a person with a physical or mental disability obtain a black belt at your school. Regardless if that is their ultimate goal or if that is just something that happens along their journey in martial arts, is it obtainable for them in your school? Again, this is not meant to pass judgment on those who say no nor is it meant to award those who say yes. It is simply a curiosity question that I am asking to better understand your philosophy or view point about martial arts.

 

[ETinCYQX]

My point about black belt standards being different for different people was a bit poorly expanded on. Obviously there is a concrete standard for black belts. However, for a 55 year old candidate, maybe who has bad knees or whatever, I don't expect a jump spin hook kick but I'd expect that candidate to have shown some sense of responsibility and guidance towards the younger students/kids. Maybe help coach at tournaments, help run classes, etc. For a 18 year old candidate, I don't necessarily need that person to be a mentor towards kids to the same extent or act as a chaperone or teacher or whatever, but I do want the jump spin hook kick, the tornado kick, etc.

If it's age you think is a handicap look at this, a 55 year old man who did the Royal Marine Commando course and earned his Green Beret, not an honorory one, he went out and trained, earnt it.
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve..._tv/s/1016727_chris_right_in_the_line_of_fire

I get what you're saying, but unfortunately age is a handicap, just as much as bad joints or lasting injuries. Not quite on the scale as everything else in this thread, but still it's a disadvantage in martial arts. Otherwise Olympians wouldn't be considered "too old" at 30.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with you, and the overall sentiment. Earlier in the thread someone...I think it was Daniel...made the comment that a decision to take on a handicapped student would be made on a case by case basis. I can understand what he is trying to say, perhaps there are people with disabilities that he doesn't feel he can work with. But isn't a decision to take on any student made on a case-by-case basis? I don't think "handicapped" should be part of the equation there either. There will be students out there that aren't a fit for a school for many reasons.

That was me that said case by case with regards to the first dan.

Again, a lot depends upon the nature of the art and how the person administering the test views the art.

If, for example, you view taekwondo as a systematized method of kicking and punching, and require that first dan candidates be able to proficiently perform a specific list of kicks and punches, then a disabled student who cannot perform the entirety of that list would be inelligible.

If you view taekwondo as a holistic approach to living that happens to include kicking and punching, then it comes down to how the candidate applies the spirit and mindset of taekwondo to what physical skills they can do.

A systematized approach as I mention above is analogous to academic testing; there are people, no matter how much you accomodate them, who will never be able to learn chemistry, physics, and higher math, and such people are usually aided in their life by various associations designed to help those with mental handicaps. The military is the same and does not allow entry to many people with disabilities and in many cases, conditions that are not a disability, but would prevent them from meeting the physical standard that the military has set.

Personally, I prefer the second approach. I am not the military. For a disabled student who is applying the methodology of the art in the areas that he or she can physically perform, I think that a test can be put together to sufficiently challenge that student.

Having said that, there are some people who have disabilities that would prevent them from, proficiently learning the bulk of the material in most MA classes and from having deep comprehension of the philosophy of the art, but who would still benefit from taking the class.

Can they earn a first dan? This is where 'case by case' comes in in my opinion.

In kendo, if you cannot hold a sword (no use of the hands, or limited use to the point that holding a sword is not a possiblity), most would have a hard time saying yes (I am unaffiliated and teach kendo independently at this point time, so I can actually make that call; kendo gradings beyond nikyu in the FIK are done before a pannel and not at the dojo level). But suppose that person loves being around kendo, does the foot work to the best of their ability, maybe shadowing the sword movements with their arms, and reads and studies sword related material and gains enough understanding that they can actually help other students to better understand the material?

I'm not going to answer the question, as I do not believe that there is a correct answer. So long as they aren't issuing grades to whomever in order to collect a fee or barring people because they want to show off what a hardnose they are, I respect whatever decision a school owner might make. Different school owners have different opinions on this and can provide logical reasons for those opinions.

Personally, I have never had a student with a severe enough handicap that this would have been an issue, though I have worked with handicapped students. If I ever am in a position that this would be a consideration for me, I can only say that I will do the best that I can to help that student do the best that he or she can.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I get what you're saying, but unfortunately age is a handicap, just as much as bad joints or lasting injuries. Not quite on the scale as everything else in this thread, but still it's a disadvantage in martial arts. Otherwise Olympians wouldn't be considered "too old" at 30.

Age can be a handicap, but if the student isn't competing, it is not nearly as much of an issue.

In the same way that age can be a handicap, so too can morbid obesity. I have a student who is 6'1 and weighs over 300 pounds. His attendence is an issue because he has constant health problems and his knees bother him due to carrying far more weight than they were designed to carry. I give him exercises that won't send him home in traction and that will develope the skills that he will need to progress. Yes, he is improving, and hopefully, the class will help him in his personal goal of weight loss (he joined in order to improve his health).

It isn't the weight itself that is a handicap, but the fact that in his case, it has cost him mobility and makes it difficult for him to make it through an entire class (I have him take small breaks here and there to facilitate him getting through the full hour and a half). If he practices too intensely, he gets knee issues, which would make all but the lightest of sparring impossible for him right now. That isn't an issue; he doesn't have bogu yet and is still very much a beginner (I generally don't want students in bogu until the rough equivalent of green belt). The fact that he is morbidly obese in combination with being fifty just compounds things.

But, I do have every confidence that he will reach first dan should he decide that he wants to. And if he does decide he wants to, I will make every effort to support him.

 

[Steve]

Ultimately, anyone who begins training with no hope of ever having that possibility will quit, Steve. Again, a black belt is a milestone to greater things, not an ultimate goal.

Not true. People train in BJJ ALL THE TIME who never expect to get a blue belt, much less a black belt. And they train because they love it. Surprisingly, many of those people do very well over time, but it takes years.

I see where you're going with this, Steve. If I say Yes, than I admit that there are limitations. If I say No, I'm a pushover and anyone who trains in my school can get a black belt because I have loose standards. Neither is accurate. As with most schools, most of my students do not reach the level of black belt. Students quit for many reasons. However, none ever because of a handicap. Any student can quit at any time or, if I feel a student no longer demonstrates a desire to continue, I may ask them to leave. But no student will ever enter my class with a predetermined limitation. Ever.

Ultimately, you guys are, IMO, seriously undervaluing your training. You are on the one hand saying that a black belt isn't that big a deal, and on the other suggesting that without the carrot of a black belt, people won't train. That's the point I'm making. It's not a rhetorical trick. It's trying to get you to see what I see.

I don't see this as difficult. As I said earlier, you , boil your requirements down to standards and measurements, taking care to distinguish between the two. Doing this will maintain the integrity of your program and will ensure that EVERYONE who achieves ANY rank in your system will be proud of it.

And then, at the same time, you take every student as an individual, whether they have an overt impairment or not. It's about communicating standards. It's not about crushing dreams. Just the opposite. It's about saying to students, "Look. Not all of you will get to black belt, regardless of how hard you work. But, there is value in training and you are all better for it. You will be stronger, more flexible, and more agile. You will have fun. You will learn some self defense skills. And I can guarantee you that the rank you receive will be 100% earned by you."

It always boils down to this for me. Why is there such a disconnect between the idea that we are all better for earning what we receive. I agree 100% with you guys that everyone is different. We all bring different things to the table. I've said before that I'd rather be actively training in BJJ as an 80 year old purple belt I've earned, than to be a 45 year old black belt who has to stop training for any reason. This is only meaningful, however, if the rank I wear is one I've earned.


As I said before, these two things are not contradictory, but unless you apply both with intention with EVERY student, you risk undermining your credibility as an instructor as well as the integrity of your program.

 

[Steve]

What's wrong with that? It is barely an accomplishment.

In TKD, maybe. Has it always been so? I don't know. Means something in many other arts.

Ultimately, how you value the belt doesn't matter to me. Or, maybe better put, I completely understand that a black belt represents something different to you than to me. I do think, however, that if you want to run a program with integrity, the belts represent a consistent standard across the board. And if it's really meaningless, I'd frankly get rid of it and move to a system that does have value. If the belts are barely an accomplishment, that directly translates in my mind to a functionless process that is a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Gemini]

It's trying to get you to see what I see.

Great post, Steve. To clarify a point on the value of a black belt, I do agree different arts view these values at different levels. Some arts do recognize the black belt at the ultimate goal. In Taekwondo, black belt represents someone who has demonstrated acceptable ability of the fundamentals to begin their training. Regardless of which camp you're from, it most certainly would have an impact on your perspective.

I think I have a good understanding of what you see and how you see it. I do not begrudge your opinion or even those whose opinion is completely opposite of mine. I believe it simply reflects the difference in those that live in world of the handicapped and those that only visit it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In TKD, maybe. Has it always been so? I don't know. Means something in many other arts.

In Korea, yes. In other places it varries from school to school.

Ultimately, how you value the belt doesn't matter to me. Or, maybe better put, I completely understand that a black belt represents something different to you than to me. I do think, however, that if you want to run a program with integrity, the belts represent a consistent standard across the board. And if it's really meaningless, I'd frankly get rid of it and move to a system that does have value. If the belts are barely an accomplishment, that directly translates in my mind to a functionless process that is a waste of everyone's time.

Accomplishment and function are not automatically equivocol.

Belts provide a functional way of competition bracketing. They provide a functional tool with which a student can both measure progress and set goals. They function in a large class to differentiate at a glance where different students are in their curriculum. Oh, and they gather the dobok.

I don't consider a high school diploma to be much of an accomplishment either; it is the bare minimum that one needs to go out into the professional world. One can go to college and attain advanced degrees and spend more time doing so than they did in high school. But that does not make high school, middle school, or elementary school a functionless process that is a waste of everyone's time.

Also, it is important to differentiate between the black belt and the rank of first dan. Lets be clear that 'blackbelt' is not a rank. It is the merit badge that represents a first or higher dan in taekwondo. Not all systems use the same belt colors. I understand that a red belt in BJJ represents a higher grade than does a black, while in taekondo, a red generally represents a grade one or two below what a black belt represents. In judo, I know that red belts also represent high dans. In at least one Tang Soo Do organization, they use a navy colored belt to represent dan grades. In kendo, we have the same grades, but don't wear belts at all. While I know that aikido has belts, I have never seen an aikidoka wearing one.