Earning a Black Belt

[dancingalone]

The talented still have to train hard, they might actually have a harder time when they reach the point where it is no longer easy to progress.

Yes, that's true enough. What I dislike is the false truism that anyone can be a black belt. It takes rather more than just personal qualities like perseverance. Obviously you need physical ability too, otherwise you have "social" promotions, where students are promoted just because they stuck it out long enough.

 

[Cirdan]

Yes, that's true enough. What I dislike is the false truism that anyone can be a black belt. It takes rather more than just personal qualities like perseverance. Obviously you need physical ability too, otherwise you have "social" promotions, where students are promoted just because they stuck it out long enough.

I did not say gradings should not be physically challenging.
I do think anyone without a serious disability can pass a hard BB test when they have trained long and hard enough.

Should we start screening out weak and out of shape people at white belt level because they are not worth the effort? No offense intended.

 

[dancingalone]

Should we start screening out weak and out of shape people at white belt level because they are not worth the effort? No offense intended.

It's not really a question of screening out people. I think martial arts can be a good vehicle for some for physical activity. Nothing wrong with someone out of shape practicing martial arts.

What I would question is promoting people who don't possess the requisite skill for black belt because they have been around a lot and because they try hard. To me that's awful for lack of a better word.

And yes one does have to be physically fit to practice martial arts to a high standard. That doesn't mean an overweight person can't kick like a mule, because they can, but I do believe black belts need to be the example for the other ranks. I have a basic standard of fitness I adhere to for promotions. Obviously, the higher the rank, the more demanding the standard.

 

[seasoned]

If you think that a black belt is being familiar with most aspects of the art ,yes I think that most people that join a club can be a black belt. A lot of this depends on the individual. I think that a some students don't have the will, the mind over matter, that is necessary to earn a black belt. Most of these will quit before they even get close. There is a few that will be winnowed out due to poor attitude and and things of that nature. Some will stay just long enough and work just barely hard enough to test. At that point they think that they know everything and will be gone. I feel that a true black belt is one that stays, long after the Black Belt test and grows into their belt and continue diligently in their training and see the value of doing so.

The hidden equation in every sensei's method of cultivating a student, or it should be.

 

[Cirdan]

It's not really a question of screening out people. I think martial arts can be a good vehicle for some for physical activity. Nothing wrong with someone out of shape practicing martial arts.

What I would question is promoting people who don't possess the requisite skill for black belt because they have been around a lot and because they try hard. To me that's awful for lack of a better word.

And yes one does have to be physically fit to practice martial arts to a high standard. That doesn't mean an overweight person can't kick like a mule, because they can, but I do believe black belts need to be the example for the other ranks. I have a basic standard of fitness I adhere to for promotions. Obviously, the higher the rank, the more demanding the standard.

I pretty much agree with this. Trying is not enough, you must do.
On the other hand I learned a long time ago not to underestimte an opponent who looks a bit unfit.

 

[KELLYG]

"What I would question is promoting people who don't possess the requisite skill for black belt because they have been around a lot and because they try hard."

What is your idea of requisite skill. I know my personal skill level. There are many things that I do well. There are quite a few things that I excel at and there are a few that, even with 100% commitment and effort inside and outside the dojang, that I do not do well. Would a person such as myself have all the requisite skill necessary to be a black belt in your opinion?

This is no way a flame post just curious thats all.

 

[dancingalone]

As you allude, Kelly, the measure of skill is subjective. Hopefully, the instructor that awards black belts is honest and maintains high standards. In my case, I've simply seen too many substandard dans for my own liking and even if I'm not the one promoting them, I do think it impugns on me and mine. (Yes, I know MT members have argued about this before collectively.)

 

[Miles]

Getting a black belt is like so many other things people persue. It takes time and effort. Unfortunately like learning the guitar , getting a uni degree or learning anything that takes time people generally dont have the patience and cant stick it out. For this reason I think most people have the physical abilities to achieve a black belt but it is their mindset that lets them down.

I like how Ralph mentioned the "mindset."

The instructor is obviously teaching physical skills, but isn't the instructor also teaching the mental attributes required to be a black belt? In my earlier example, I saw that particular student's failure to be mentally ready as my failure.

 

[granfire]

I like how Ralph mentioned the "mindset."

The instructor is obviously teaching physical skills, but isn't the instructor also teaching the mental attributes required to be a black belt? In my earlier example, I saw that particular student's failure to be mentally ready as my failure.

You can't teach mind set.
You can set expectations high, and follow through but in the end, if a person does not have it in him/her, there is just not a lot you can do about it.

Lead by example, but don't take 'failure' personal.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I train with a mate who was in a motorbike accident 10 years ago and because of that has , and always will have poor flexibility and hip rotation. He trains extremely hard and has adapted his tkd to suit this problem. He is now black belt , and a good one , but our 2nd dan grading will require him to do a jump spinning kick to break thick timber above his head height. For him , this is physically impossible , he will not ever be able to do this due to his injury , now should that prevent him ever getting a second dan? In my opinion it should not ,but on the other hand it is a grading requirement and at my school not breaking means instant fail. I am still not sure if they will cut him some slack on the grading requirement, but based on some people's theories he should just be stuck at 1st dan now for the rest of his life. I believe anyone should have the opportunity to get a black belt irrespective of their body type , size etc if they have the mental fortitude to get there and train their *** off.

 

[Carol]

Not directed at you personally, Manny, but whatever happened to talent and physical ability?

I have never had either. Worse, I'm overweight. Obese, actually. My BMI is over 30. I cannot run, not even for a mile...and probably will never be able to with my back issues. My hips cannot take the pounding.

That is me in October 2009, in a 35MPH wind on the summit of Grand Monadnock, the second most frequently climbed mountain in the world.

What I lack in talent (and cardio), I make up for in heart. I know I will earn a black belt...someday

 

[seasoned]

I have never had either. Worse, I'm overweight. Obese, actually. My BMI is over 30. I cannot run, not even for a mile...and probably will never be able to with my back issues. My hips cannot take the pounding.

That is me in October 2009, in a 35MPH wind on the summit of Grand Monadnock, the second most frequently climbed mountain in the world.

What I lack in talent (and cardio), I make up for in heart. I know I will earn a black belt...someday

It begins with heart, carol. Don't let anybody tell you differently. The greatest karate masters didn't choose students on their ability, but on loyalty and honesty. Follow your heart.:asian:

 

[Haakon]

I train with a mate who was in a motorbike accident 10 years ago and because of that has , and always will have poor flexibility and hip rotation. He trains extremely hard and has adapted his tkd to suit this problem. He is now black belt , and a good one , but our 2nd dan grading will require him to do a jump spinning kick to break thick timber above his head height. For him , this is physically impossible , he will not ever be able to do this due to his injury , now should that prevent him ever getting a second dan? In my opinion it should not ,but on the other hand it is a grading requirement and at my school not breaking means instant fail. I am still not sure if they will cut him some slack on the grading requirement, but based on some people's theories he should just be stuck at 1st dan now for the rest of his life. I believe anyone should have the opportunity to get a black belt irrespective of their body type , size etc if they have the mental fortitude to get there and train their *** off.

It's an interesting question, if your school sticks to extremely strict requirements he probably won't pass. I suspect that at the great majority of schools he wouldn't have a problem testing for 2nd dan if a head high jump spinning back kick was the only thing he couldn't do. Just my opinion, but I would pass him if that's the only limitation and he otherwise had solid technique.

I'm all for high standards when it comes to testing (for every rank, not just bb), but I also think that some leeway can be made on a case by case basis. Some schools have promoted people in wheelchairs to black belt, that I think is going way to far. There is likely some martial arts you can excel in without using your legs, but TKD sure isn't one of them.

Even though I think there are some physical standards that have to be met, I think there is some middle ground between "physical ability doesn't matter" and "physical ability is everything".

 

[seasoned]

Re: Earning a Black Belt
I have seen a lot of students come through a dojo door with a lot of physical ability, they are a sensei's dream. They are already loose, and have a lot of attributes from training in sports in high school. It takes little effort to teach them because they catch on very fast. A true Sensei, is one that can build someone from nothing. Give me someone with all the things Manny mentions, and I will take it from there. "commitment, attitude, perseverance, hardwork, humility, loyalty, respect, soul and heart". This is what "earning a black belt" means to me. This is the person I want watching my back.

 

[Kyosanim]

I am curious about how the instructors and school owners feel about students that join their school/club and whether they will be able to earn a black belt. I am also curious to hear the students point of view as well.

Do you feel anyone that joins your school can earn a Black Belt?
Do you feel most people that join a school can earn a Black Belt?
Do you feel that just over half the people that join a school can earn a Black Belt?
Do you feel only one in one hundred students that join will earn a black belt?
Do you feel it will be even fewer than the ratio of one in one hundred?

I appreciate your thoughts and answers regarding this topic.

Respectfully,
K

I would just like to say as a black belt that I hate the damn thing, and its more trouble than its worth. Way to much emphasis is placed the whole BB thing. Who cares its just a piece of cloth that holds your Dobak or Dogi in place. It might as well be pink, you would probably get less flack about it that way too.

I say to hell with rank lets just do it to do it, and have fun.

 

[Stonecold]

Not everyone that walks into a Martial arts club wants to earn a Black Belt, some just want to work out, beat stress, feel good , a Black Belt just might be a result of this .
Some time Black belt is not the goal but the result of another pursuit .
Everyone has the potential to earn a Belt.

 

[StudentCarl]

Maybe an appropriate reference given the thread about Joe Hyams' excellent book Zen in the Martial Arts.

Reading this thread makes me focus on the distinction between promotion for general time and meeting expectations--and truly lengthening your line. We all have limits in our minds, our own ideas about what we think is the top end of what we can do. I think a good master and a dedicated student stretch the student past their limits to real growth.

The people I think of as the best blackbelts are those who don't stay within perceived limits and challenge themselves and their students to achieve more, to reach and really grow. They're not necessarily the fastest or most athletic, but their drive leads to more and continuing growth.

To do less is to be like the elephant held by a thin rope because he learned when he was young not to pull because then it was a chain. Some elephants may stay long enough and demonstrate the skills to be a black belt but remain tied to the post. The best ones don't accept those limits and continue to lengthen their lines.

Carl

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have never had either. Worse, I'm overweight. Obese, actually. My BMI is over 30. I cannot run, not even for a mile...and probably will never be able to with my back issues. My hips cannot take the pounding.

That is me in October 2009, in a 35MPH wind on the summit of Grand Monadnock, the second most frequently climbed mountain in the world.

What I lack in talent (and cardio), I make up for in heart. I know I will earn a black belt...someday

Go Carol! Ultimately, heart is what makes the difference. It is heart that will enable one to overcome their obstacles and to drive themselves to be better than they currently are.

Love the picture!

Daniel

 

[Balrog]

Do you feel anyone that joins your school can earn a Black Belt?

My answer to that is yes. I view every new student through the door as a potential Black Belt.

Now, the reality is that maybe 80% or so will stop training somewhere along the way. These days, it's usually because of finances, but some will quit because they are scared to spar or just don't like to sweat, some move away, etc.

 

[terryl965]

I sat on a BB board and to my amazment everyone passed even the ones that forget there poomsae's and self defense, now that is a true BB test. Remember money is the root to all evil...:rofl::erg: