SA_BJJ
Blue Belt
And you rely on your BS facts from Wikipedia. You are an illinformed redneck who cant listen to anything rational. Stay in the dark...have fun!
BJJ vs TKD...yep, let's kick the dead horse
- Thread starter BrandonLucas
- Start date
SA_BJJ
Blue Belt
And yes genius Judo WAS in fact formed from jiujitsu. It is not its own art yet a mere subset of Jiujitsu. Wow you people here think you know everything about Martial Arts. I guess anyone can google...
Gosh, reading all that has taken me ten minutes of my life I won't get back again. Can't you lot play nicely, if you carry on like this the thread will be locked and what could have been an interesting discussion will be remembered as the children fighting again.
Okay gentlemen, I think that's quite enough.
If you cannot argue like the adults I do you the credit of granting the status of, it is probably best if you let this bone lie for a while.
However, if you can continue to discuss the views you hold on the matter in hand without resorting to the sort of 'attitude' that has been seen hitherto, then please do.
Just bear in mind that there are certain standards of behaviour you agreed to when you signed up here and altho' certain leeway is granted for subjects which arouse passions in the Study Forum, that 'sea-room' does not apply elsewhere.
Further skirting of the boundaries of civilised debate can only hold one outcome and I happen to think that this subject is interesting enough for it to be a shame if this thread gets shackled.
EDIT: Ah, I see that Tez got there first. Quite so, good lady.
If you cannot argue like the adults I do you the credit of granting the status of, it is probably best if you let this bone lie for a while.
However, if you can continue to discuss the views you hold on the matter in hand without resorting to the sort of 'attitude' that has been seen hitherto, then please do.
Just bear in mind that there are certain standards of behaviour you agreed to when you signed up here and altho' certain leeway is granted for subjects which arouse passions in the Study Forum, that 'sea-room' does not apply elsewhere.
Further skirting of the boundaries of civilised debate can only hold one outcome and I happen to think that this subject is interesting enough for it to be a shame if this thread gets shackled.
EDIT: Ah, I see that Tez got there first. Quite so, good lady.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=150
Kano's new system was not without obstacles, however, and many of the old line classical systems held back no criticism. This criticism was largely silenced by a match in 1886 between his Kodokan Judo School and that of the Yoshin ryu (jujutsu) organized by the Tokyo police department. Kano's school won thirteen victories, one draw and only two losses out of fifteen individual matches.
historical facts dont lie, BJJ fanboy's dont know any better
http://hubpages.com/hub/Brazilian-Jiu-Jitsu
Although (there)was no clear distinction between Judo, and Jiu-Jitsu in the past, the current styles could not be more separate.
again, facts dont lie, fan boys though...........
http://www.essortment.com/hobbies/historyjudo_spmj.htm
Originally an offshoot of the hand-to-hand combat used by the samurai in ancient Japan, Judo has developed its own identity--one that stresses not just physical strength, but also moral and intellectual fortitude.
facts, the kryptonite of BJJ fan boys since 1992
look, I know, you love what you do, and clearly, you dont know any better, but quit while you are behind ok?
NO ONE disputes that judo came from JJ, but wether you like it or not, (1) judo is a seperate entity, (2)that in 1882 embarrassed the hell out of jujitsu in open competition, (3)Carlos gracie was a JUDO BB before forming BJJ, (4) Maeda was a JUDO BB before comming to Brazil
thats FOUR things you are flat out WRONG about.
quit now.
Kano's new system was not without obstacles, however, and many of the old line classical systems held back no criticism. This criticism was largely silenced by a match in 1886 between his Kodokan Judo School and that of the Yoshin ryu (jujutsu) organized by the Tokyo police department. Kano's school won thirteen victories, one draw and only two losses out of fifteen individual matches.
historical facts dont lie, BJJ fanboy's dont know any better
http://hubpages.com/hub/Brazilian-Jiu-Jitsu
Although (there)was no clear distinction between Judo, and Jiu-Jitsu in the past, the current styles could not be more separate.
again, facts dont lie, fan boys though...........
http://www.essortment.com/hobbies/historyjudo_spmj.htm
Originally an offshoot of the hand-to-hand combat used by the samurai in ancient Japan, Judo has developed its own identity--one that stresses not just physical strength, but also moral and intellectual fortitude.
facts, the kryptonite of BJJ fan boys since 1992
look, I know, you love what you do, and clearly, you dont know any better, but quit while you are behind ok?
NO ONE disputes that judo came from JJ, but wether you like it or not, (1) judo is a seperate entity, (2)that in 1882 embarrassed the hell out of jujitsu in open competition, (3)Carlos gracie was a JUDO BB before forming BJJ, (4) Maeda was a JUDO BB before comming to Brazil
thats FOUR things you are flat out WRONG about.
quit now.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
HEY, i am the one getting insulted and called names here. Every assertion I have made has been backed up with FACTS, and relevant links and posted in a manner consistant with the rules.
As with many situations like this in the real as well as the virtual world, after the first exchange, who 'started it' is not the issue in question.
I can understand you might feel yourself to be the injured party and when your dander is up it is hard to pull back from the brink.
Nonetheless, I refer those in dispute to my previous post. It would be most advantageous to everyone viewing this thread with interest if it continues from this point in polite fashion.
I can understand you might feel yourself to be the injured party and when your dander is up it is hard to pull back from the brink.
Nonetheless, I refer those in dispute to my previous post. It would be most advantageous to everyone viewing this thread with interest if it continues from this point in polite fashion.
Sukerkin, you are more tactful than I am!
Ok lets try this one.....the word 'sport' has been put before several styles, my own, karate included. To my mind this means that the participants are usually doing a watered down style, usually non contact or at the very least minimal contact that actually debases the original art. I realise btw that no contact in judo/juijitsu is inpossible but I take it you know what I mean lol!
Has the argument here been about the 'sport' styles of our arts or the real thing? I put it to you gentleman that we have been looking at the 'sport' versions and assuming that is the proper thing.
BJJ when done properly and please do forget about the UFC ( btw did I tell you we have a fighter trying out next year for the TUF, thought I'd boast and let that one out) that's BJJ done under MMA fight rules, is quite a serious art with some serious defences and attacks. Likewise TKD, forget the Olympics, I have a friend who teaches 'real' TKD with kicks, punches, takedowns and a few quite nasty surprises. My own first love Wado Ryu has a great many takedowns and ground fighting moves because it's founder was also a juijitsu master.
Can we all find videos to show what our true art is or explain moves from our true arts? I think that way we will end up with us somewhere in the middle as opposed to opposite sides. Or we will all agree that the bastardisation of our arts is a bummer ( there - a nice American phrase I believe?0)I would have said it was bollocks personally!
I'm an equal opportunity Ms Whiplash, when kids fight they all get shouted at!
I've met several Brazilians now whos primary art is BJJ, they are nice guys but have come up from the slums where you fight hard or don't survive, that's not in competition. They compete to make money, to make things better for themselves and family and that actually makes them fairly ruthless, their BJJ is also ruthless from what I've seen. It also makes them greedy on the whole but thats another argument.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
I dont care who you are, that right there's funny!!
as to the rest, well, those same people could make origami brutal, that comes from the mindset, which is, in martial arts as a whole, the single biggest "X Factor" in discussions of style vs style
A couple of points:
Wikipedia accuracy.
Judo & Jujutsu History
Personal Attacks:
MT Rules: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26480
Wikipedia accuracy.
Other studies I've seen referenced indicate Wiki is on par with Enc. Britannica, however I can't locate that link at the moment.
Judo & Jujutsu History
- Introduction to Kodokan Judo by Neil Ohlenkamp
- Jujutsu Becomes Judo by Jigoro Kano
- History of Judo by Keo Cavalcanti
- Kodokan Judo by Matsutaro Shibazaki
- Origins of Judo by Allen Gordon
- Origins of Judo and Jujitsu by Sumitomo Arima
- History of Judo by Phil Rasmussen
- Origins of Judo in the US by Kazuo Shinohara
- Jigoro Kano by Andy Adams
- Jigoro Kano's Death at Sea
- Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan by Kazuzo Kudo
- On Jujutsu and its Modernization by Kenji Tomiki
- Jigoro Kano Historical Photos
- Jujutsu by Jigoro Kano and T. Lindsay
- Origins of the Samurai by David Lay
- Kodokan Tenth Degree Black Belts
- Ranking Systems in Modern Japanese Martial Arts by Donn F. raeger
- Randori and Unification of Jujutsu by the Kodokan by Kosuke Nagaki
- Judo Rank System by Neil Ohlenkamp
- Evolution of Judo Rules by Neil Ohlenkamp
- Original Kodokan Contest Rules
- "My Judo" by Masahiko Kimura
- Master Tsunetane Oda by Toshikazu Okada
- Sarah Mayer: Letters to Gunji Koizumi
- The Noble Struggle of the Warrior by Taisen Deshimaru
- Scholarly and Athletic Accomplishments of Dr. Jigoro Kano by Matt Ball
- Judo by Emilio Bruno
- A Letter About Judo Weight Classes by Emilio Bruno
- Friction Fractures U.S. Judo Factions
- Karate Outpaces Judo in the US
- The Growth of Judo and Karate Declining in the US
- First Issue of Black Belt Magazine: "Special Judo Issue"
- Judo Symbols
- Old Newspaper Advertisements
- Traditions of Judo
- Do You Know?
- Discussion of History on JudoForum.com
Personal Attacks:
MT Rules: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26480
- No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. NO insulting or personal attacks on other members - if some one insults you, do not retaliate but report the offending post using the 'report this post' button link located in each post's top right corner! Respect each others' opinions - you don't have to agree with them but please respect them.
- Rudeness, flaming, trolling, or any messages (via the forum, e-mail, or PM) that constitute a personal attack will not be tolerated. You'll only get one warning. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be banned without warning.
Awww, but I wanna kick the dead horse, too! 
Personally I like the idea of doing ground and standup work. I like the idea of cross-training. But I'm also very committed to the idea of enjoying your training (even during times its not fun....LOL). I don't think cross-training should be "mandated", for lack of a better word. Some folks don't like stand-up arts, others don't like ground. Me, I like 'em both, but I absolutely loathe working out in class with someone doesn't want to be there!
Was it Jake of "Body by Jake" that said "Get fit, and don't quit?" Personally I think the most important thing a MAist can do is not quit. We train today to defend ourselves tonight, if we have to...but if we want to be able to defend ourselves 10 or 20 years later, we need to be training for the next 10 or 20 years. The theories, the training, the cross-training...their fullest potential can only be realized if the student doesn't quit.
Soo...(how's that dead horse looking?) Which is best? TKD? BJJ? Both? IMO, The one that will result in the most interest and longevity to the student is the one that's best. :asian:
Personally I like the idea of doing ground and standup work. I like the idea of cross-training. But I'm also very committed to the idea of enjoying your training (even during times its not fun....LOL). I don't think cross-training should be "mandated", for lack of a better word. Some folks don't like stand-up arts, others don't like ground. Me, I like 'em both, but I absolutely loathe working out in class with someone doesn't want to be there!
Was it Jake of "Body by Jake" that said "Get fit, and don't quit?" Personally I think the most important thing a MAist can do is not quit. We train today to defend ourselves tonight, if we have to...but if we want to be able to defend ourselves 10 or 20 years later, we need to be training for the next 10 or 20 years. The theories, the training, the cross-training...their fullest potential can only be realized if the student doesn't quit.
Soo...(how's that dead horse looking?) Which is best? TKD? BJJ? Both? IMO, The one that will result in the most interest and longevity to the student is the one that's best. :asian:
Aye, that's the wisdom that sticks, Carol :rei:.
I've said it before in other threads which touched on the "Which art is best?" question - it's the art in which a student continues training. Everything else is moot.
I've said it before in other threads which touched on the "Which art is best?" question - it's the art in which a student continues training. Everything else is moot.
SA_BJJ
Blue Belt
Very true, I suppose there will always be "haters" of BJJ. Its just something we deal with. Those of us that have been around it for years before BJJ was the cool thing to do realize what it takes to be successful in our art. No art is better than another. The only real thing that matters is if you like it or not. Nuff said..Im done now...:soapbox
Stepping down)
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
well yeah, except for NINJA, that stuff rocks!!!!
Very true, I suppose there will always be "haters" of BJJ. Its just something we deal with. Those of us that have been around it for years before BJJ was the cool thing to do realize what it takes to be successful in our art. No art is better than another. The only real thing that matters is if you like it or not. Nuff said..Im done now...:soapbox
sometimes the martial arts is kind of like a family arguement. i can say whatever i want about my brother, but nobody outside of the family had better say anything!
i'm not a bjj practioner, & i have my criticisms of it. but it's still jujitsu, & it's still grappling, & i hate to see it derided by those who aren't grapplers.
jf
The funny thing is that over here it's a BJJ v MMA thng, it's always Gi or no-Gi with the argument going that when attacked in the street neither you nor your attacker will be wearing Gis so why train SD with a Gi on! We don't tend have have quite so many arguments about TMA v MMA.
interesting. i think there's a degree of that here, too, at least in terms of gi vs no gi. in terms of bjj vs mma being better for defense or streetfighting, i think most americans in those communities think bjj is good, mma is better.
i have several mma-focused guys who train with me at my grappling club, & most of them have really needed a good-hard convincing about the value of judo for mma. i praise judo up & down to these guys. but you should hear some of the stuff i say about judo when it's just me & my judo coach. just like family.
jf
i have several mma-focused guys who train with me at my grappling club, & most of them have really needed a good-hard convincing about the value of judo for mma. i praise judo up & down to these guys. but you should hear some of the stuff i say about judo when it's just me & my judo coach. just like family.
jf
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myusername
Brown Belt
I think it is time to roll out my completely crap satire again! Now with improved punchline courteosy of TheLetch1......
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