Traditional TKD

[bluewaveschool]

should have put this with the comment on the torando kick



Still, it does involve 2 things I hate. Turning your back to your opponent, and leaving the ground. I'll take a proper sliding side kick (PROPER being the key term) as my general kick of choice. I can't throw it head height anymore, nearly any spot it hits, including the fool that tries to block it with his arms, it's going to hurt real bad.

 

[dancingalone]

I'll take a proper sliding side kick (PROPER being the key term) as my general kick of choice. I can't throw it head height anymore, nearly any spot it hits, including the fool that tries to block it with his arms, it's going to hurt real bad.

There are systems that train for something called a 'destruction', moving slightly to avoid the brunt of the assault and then engaging their hard points like elbows and such as that the attacker is damaged and then vulnerable to a quick counter. No attack is bulletproof.

 

[bluewaveschool]

There are systems that train for something called a 'destruction', moving slightly to avoid the brunt of the assault and then engaging their hard points like elbows and such as that the attacker is damaged and then vulnerable to a quick counter. No attack is bulletproof.

Average thug on the street trying to take your wallet isn't trained like that. Also, I tell my students to give him the freakin wallet. Might not have their training, but might have a knife or gun.

I do think a simpler technique is more effective in SD situations that the flashy stuff people associate with TKD. You have to be a very gifted athlete to pull off a tornado kick. No doubt that with the speed/torque generated that it will hurt.

Question though - is that striking with the ball of the foot or the inside edge like a cresent kick?

 

[Disco]

When I look back, now that I'm OLDER, those good old days, really weren't all that good. Came home with lots of black and blues, bloody uniform, sprains and let us not forget the broken/fractured fingers and or toes. The rule of thumb, even in the military in those days, was pain is an excellent teacher. In a way they were correct and I most assuredly learned and remember from those days, but they did take their toll. Only until one gets on in life, does the effects of that type of training manifest itself. Even with the very best and educated training aspects, the human body will wear down under the prolonged repetitive actions we put it through. Only moderation can determine just how long one can function, properly, in any given endeavor. That being said, looking at the gymnastic aspects of the tornado kick and those like it, aside from a given unpractical SD proponent, the overall stress on the body is quite profound. As Terry pointed out, age places limitations. In my opinion, the proposed athletic good derived from doing such kicks is outweighed by the negatives stated above. The saying, "You fight as you train" weighs heavily in my mind. I'd hate to attempt a kick like that, have the opponent just step in on me and I'd lose balance and crash to the ground. Asphalt/Cement is very unforgiving under any circumstances.

OK, now a little rant: I've watched post upon post, thread upon thread, bemoaning the state of TKD. The Kukkiwon transitions, the WTF attempting whatever, the USTU or whatever they call themselves, doing things not conducive to the general rank and file and it goes on and on. You want to talk about "Traditional TKD", well all those things were never in the beginning aspects of TKD. You, all of you, have allowed and are still allowing those things to run your TKD life. They, can't function without you. You on the other hand really don't need them, unless your under the delusion that you or yours has a CHANCE at Olympic glory. Buy a lotto ticket, you have a better chance at winning and it costs a heck of a lot less. You still insist on the dream, then go to the AAU program. At least it's home grown and your money is not going overseas. This relationship with these organizations relates to the battered wife syndrome. You get crapped on, but you still won't leave. Ad I said prior, NONE of these things were in TKD. We trained, learned, bled and were content with ourselves for the effort and knowledge put forth. In the end, that's really all there is and that's all there's supposed to be..........:asian:

 

[SahBumNimRush]

As to remembering the old days.. .

It took me 7 years to earn my black belt, and that was a little longer than most in those days but I was a "slow" learner. Nearly 25 years since I've started, like many of you, have seen the decline in intensity in the training halls. Like anything else in life, things have to change and adapt to fit a society. Our society is bubble wrapped these days (helmets and knee pads for everything, rubberized playgrounds, etc.. .) , so for obvious reasons we cannot train like we all did back in the 70's and 80's.

I'm also not advocating that we should train like we did in those days either. I loved that training, it is the reason I'm still in it today. That said, the tv/video game generation wouldn't know how to deal with it, let alone their parents. For the adult students, they all have to go to work the next day.. . It's all about purpose. I think that the focus for many Korean instructors coming to the U.S. back in the 60's and 70's was still largely from a military survival perspective. People in society today don't have that threat, so there isn't the need to train that hard.

This flux in training intensity has been there since ancient times. Look at why the arts such as Tae Kyon fell out of existence.. . In times of peace, martial arts were seen as barbaric, and in some cases, outlawed. When times of strife and war come, these arts rise again in intensity and popularity.

For those of you that did live through the "old days" of training, it is important for us to carry that memory on, so that it isn't lost in the sands of time. However, we cannot conduct everyday classes like that today.

From a purely SD stand point, our society isn't dangerous enough for most people to train that hard. The most important part of teaching SD, is teaching how to recognize a possible situation and how to avoid getting into it, and that doesn't require getting the **** beat out of you every week in class. I admit that people are robbed, shot, stabbed, etc. everyday, but for most it doesn't hit close enough to home to warrant you training hard for a situation that would hopefully never come to realization.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No emphasis on protecting the face?

No emphasis on kicking and manipulating when the arms are up -- as that changes the body's center of balance?

No emphasis on blocking an attack?

Aren't these the most basic, and most important principles of self-defense -- learning the ability to stop something from hurting the body?

I can see where you are coming from but blocking that kick would probably result in a broken arm. The kick is not for everybody but when done properly you'd be surprised how often it lands and how powerful it is. Even if they do manage to scurry out of the way it usually leaves them so off balance that it allows for further attacks. Personally Im not a big fan of the kick but Ive seen it land too many times to dismiss it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Average thug on the street trying to take your wallet isn't trained like that. Also, I tell my students to give him the freakin wallet. Might not have their training, but might have a knife or gun.

I teach them to toss the wallet a few feet to on side of the perp and run like heck in the other direction in a zig zag pattern yelling and screaming.

Now the perp has a choice. Nice quiet $ or loud maniac. Perps have hockey score IQs but good predatory instincts and will generaly pick the money.

 

[Manny]

should have put this with the comment on the torando kick



Still, it does involve 2 things I hate. Turning your back to your opponent, and leaving the ground. I'll take a proper sliding side kick (PROPER being the key term) as my general kick of choice. I can't throw it head height anymore, nearly any spot it hits, including the fool that tries to block it with his arms, it's going to hurt real bad.

Kicks like the tornado kick are pretty nice if you know how to deliver them and to land them properly, this si not easy and demands a lot of work inside dojang. Because of this IMO they are not well suited to perform in the streets in a real self defense scenario or CQB, why? very simple, under stress fine motor skills go down very fast you know, the adreanline rush, the tunel vision, shaking,loss hearing, etc,etc., that's why the simpler the tech the better.

We must remind MA gives us a set of tools and the proper use of tese tools can give us certain edge in the real world.

Because of the above written I would rather prefer practice and practice and practice the front trust kick till becomes so natural that I can't even think how I delivered it to the target. I think is easier to trust a front kick to the ba......s or stomach of a scumb bag than try to knock him down with a tornado kick.

Manny

 

[Disco]

Question though - is that striking with the ball of the foot or the inside edge like a cresent kick?

It can be delivered either with the ball of the foot or the top of the foot. From observations, it looks like the majority of folks I've watched use the top of the foot. Lots of folks actually have a difficult time pulling the toes back to use the ball, so it's much easier to use the top of the foot.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot. I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot. He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.

 

[Carol]

Kickin' it old school with the pride of Boston.

Mr. Pedro Xavier, Mr. Ronald Brady, Mr. Donald Brady.

Enjoy

[yt]n_UNBzcwtlI[/yt]

 

[Carol]

I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot. I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot. He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.

The difference is targets and weapons, essentially.

Kicking with the ball of your foot is a slightly different weapon. It focuses the impact in a small space...which can act as a force multiplier. Targeting a small target like a kidney, with that kick, leading with the ball of the foot? That's probably a fight ender.

By comparison, the top of the foot is a broader target. It travels a wider arc, so it can make for a more powerful kick overall. Its the general purpose weapon, if you will.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot. I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot. He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.

Safety gear makes ball of the foot kicking more difficult for some kicks, Uing the top of the foot also gives a little more reach. As a barefoot kick it may not be as desireaable but I have seen a freak of nature break 4 boards with the top of the foot. with shoes on it will work OK.

 

[bluewaveschool]

The difference is targets and weapons, essentially.

Kicking with the ball of your foot is a slightly different weapon. It focuses the impact in a small space...which can act as a force multiplier. Targeting a small target like a kidney, with that kick, leading with the ball of the foot? That's probably a fight ender.

By comparison, the top of the foot is a broader target. It travels a wider arc, so it can make for a more powerful kick overall. Its the general purpose weapon, if you will.

I understand the overall mechanics, I just don't know why someone would risk all those small bones on the top of the foot. Earl is right about the foam padded gear making striking with the ball harder.

 

[Carol]

I understand the overall mechanics, I just don't know why someone would risk all those small bones on the top of the foot. Earl is right about the foam padded gear making striking with the ball harder.

If you're hitting with your instep (and not flexing your foot and jabbing your toe in the process) hitting a person with such a kick doesn't a lot of risk. Many Filipino styles have that same kick, and we practice them repeatedly with a wavemaster xxl or muay thai bag, without injury. In a live situation, you'll most likely be in socks and shoes/boots, which provide additional protection.

 

[Disco]

Kickin' it old school with the pride of Boston.

Mr. Pedro Xavier, Mr. Ronald Brady, Mr. Donald Brady.

Enjoy

[yt]n_UNBzcwtlI[/yt]

Well compared to the last Olympic offering I viewed, this made it look like apples to oranges. Thanks for video.......:highfive:

 

[bluewaveschool]

so few hands up...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

so few hands up...

we had our club championships on today , I didnt compete but went along to help out with setting up and helped padding up the students for the sparring section. We used the olympic sparring rules but none of the students are used to having points involved so it made for some great viewing. The thing that struck me the most was that its the mindset not the rules that make olympic sparring hard for many to get into to. The competitors all had their hands up, there was just as much punching as kicking and the contact was brutal. It was actually really entertaining and quite a few people commented on how good it was to watch. It made me realise that the olympic ruleset can make for some really good sparring but the way the rules are manipulated (for want of a better word) really detract from what otherwise is quite a good ruleset.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot. I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot. He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.

Interesting. In hapkido, we were always instructed to never kick with the instep and instead to kick with the ball.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Sorry I've been away folks. I didn't forget about this thread.

Anyways...again, great posts all around. Thank you. A few things caught my eye, after reading over the last few pages.

1) Some say that its hard to define exactly what is Traditional TKD. I suppose everyones idea of tradition will vary, but I dont think its impossible to figure out. Or is it? I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport. Is sport considered traditional, in TKD circles?

2) Someone said that it took 7yrs to get a BB. Out of fear of turning this into one of those other threads that've been beat 20 times over already, let me ask this...what changed and why did it change? I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?

3) Self defense. Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago? Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any?