Traditional TKD

[Carol]

No emphasis on protecting the face?

No emphasis on kicking and manipulating when the arms are up -- as that changes the body's center of balance?

No emphasis on blocking an attack?

Aren't these the most basic, and most important principles of self-defense -- learning the ability to stop something from hurting the body?

 

[terryl965]

torando kick?

- googled... it's pretty... pretty useless in a self defense situation that is.

It is also called a Nanabaum spelling maybe off but it is the same kick, MJS ask for thoughtout opinions and keep this from becoming another bashing so I will only say that a Tonardo kick can be useful in any stituation just like alot of hands and kicks from many arts. One of the best quality to any S.D. type scenerio is taking your opponet off gaurd quickly and this kick done right will have a thunder type of effect due the the target area of the kick and how much force can be generated by it. I am older now and keep lower with my kick but back in the days I could do this kick with very little effort and land it 98% of the time on anybody, it is called timing.

I would like to add that the evolution of Traditional TKD has not changed that much in my circle's it is still regarded as a deadly force if tought the proper techs. for S.D.. TKD is never consider an Art of it own but rather an Art developed by means of taking what other arts had to offer and took what they consider the best and mixed it with other arts.

I have trained in several countries due to my father involvement in training military personal in hand to hand combat and I can remember being tought Joint Locks, ground work and alot more. I also remember some of my instructor saying this was art A, B and C before it ever became a part of TKD. Now I know some of you believe in this TKD has been around one way or another for 1,000's of years but no it has not the concept is a little of 50 years and the founders was rooted in Okinawa Karate based arts with some Judo and other arts mixed in for a well rounded discipline, what we have forgotten is the Koreans wanted to have something of their own to take to the world, to seperate them from everyone else hince came TKD and the Olympic side, every single instructor latched on to this and the money train took off, now it is by far the most practice Sport Art we have in the world. I remember reading like TKD has over 1.4 million school worldwide teaching the sport of TKD.

Now alot of older instructors have since retired and the young ones turned to the sport because it was easy to teach, not saying easy has in not real material because the elite groups train like mad men all the time but easy in the sense in making money, it is cater to families and childern with the main course being the whole package, but we still need to remember that Traditional TKD in the sense is really other arts coming together to make a whole art.

In closing I would like to say I cannot see any sort of Traditional TKD in another 25 years, simply because too many young sport studs opening schools and flooding the market place. To many black belts that really have no S.D. what so ever and too many older instructor switching over to the sport to make a good living at it. My school is small and yes we teach the sportside but my background is not sport, I become involved in it 10 years ago when my oldest wanted to compete in it and I did not trust any of these so called young bucks to teach him it so I watched, learn and researched it to the fullest now he is consider a top tier fighter and he is making his push now to get notice some say I waited to long but for me he is at the right age 16 to really understand what it takes to become an elite. Elite expert say start at 10 or 11 but that is to early and alot of those kids are out of the sport by the time they are 20 because they did not take proper care of body and mind. I expect Zachary to excel around 18-22 for the sport but I also expect him to stay with the art side for many years to come because he has that rooted in him and he loves Self Defense since it was not all sport will he was growing up. I believe TKD will evolve even more as a sport and less as an Art only time will tell.

 

[terryl965]

No emphasis on protecting the face?

No emphasis on kicking and manipulating when the arms are up -- as that changes the body's center of balance?

No emphasis on blocking an attack?

Aren't these the most basic, and most important principles of self-defense -- learning the ability to stop something from hurting the body?

Yes Carol it is but one thing alot of people do not relize at times is that kick is coming so fast and with so much power are you able to stop it with hands up and the answer is most likely not. Alot of S.D. is practical but also it is about surprising your assaulant and this kick can get off with a blink of an eye and be landed very much at will with the proper training. When people watch the sportside only they need to ask themself this one question, can I block that kick and I can I survive if I ever get hit with that kick. If you can answer yes I can block that silly kick than I invite anybody at anytime to come over and do so, not a challenge but just saying until you have been hit with it you cannot understand the force that comes from it. I do not and would not throw this kick mainly becaus eI am older and not able to get the speed from the turn to generate the force needed to really effectively make it work anymore but in my younger days I have used it in S.D. and was very succesful with it.

Carol in no means is it an end all to alot of stituation but in the right place it can be devastateing to someone. Remember S.D. is about surviving not destroying.:asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I remember seeing J.H. Kim's flash-photography showing trhe speeds of various techniques in Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook. It was very cool.

Did you train with GM Kim long? He'd be a person I'd love to have a chat with about TKD history sometime.

Pax,

Chris

Only about 1.5 years maybe 2 and I was very young when I started, I couldn't drive. But when I had to stop I could drive. He closed his school in Worcester Ma and I had to stop. I went back about 2 years later to his school in Boston but then I had moved to NYS.

I was not so much into MA history back then, I was more into the sparring, but I do know he was highly skilled and a great teacher.

He also thought protective gear was silly since there was no protective gear in a fight. He finally bought some because enough students asked for it and I wore it once. It was old style padding that was mostly bamboo covered in thin padding and to be honest it hurt more to get hit wearing it than it did if you were not wearing it.

It is one of the MA schools that I went to that I do wish I could have gone to longer.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

As stated previously in this thread, Traditional TKD can be a bit hard to define.. . It is a common term used to delineate from Sport TKD, but there were many fragmentations and permutations long before TKD became an olympic sport. When we look at the original gyms that opened up after the Japanese occupation of Korea, all of them were teaching some form of Karate. I do not know, and I doubt anyone that wasn't there does either, what other things were added into the amalgamation that became Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do. My Kwan Jang Nim was a member of the Moo Duk Kwan and was an instructor in the ROK. When he came the the U.S. in the late 1960's he immediately had to change how he taught MDK TKD. He was losing students left and right. When he asked a fellow MDK master who was also in the U.S. at the time, GM Kyong Won Ahn replied that "you cannot teach Americans the same way you taught in Korea, they are too soft."

So from that perspective, no one in America was actually taught "Traditional" anything. The watering down process had begun as soon as it set foot in the U.S.

That being said, I started under Kwan Jang Sok Ho Kang in 1985. We were taught traditional Shotokan form sets: Kicho Hyungs, Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Naihanchi Hyungs, Bassai Hyung, Ship Soo Hyung, Rohai Hyung, Chinto Hyung, Kang Song Kun Hyung.. . We did a lot of sparring (only protective gear was a cup) and breaking.. . Self defense and forms as well.

Things were not easy, but from what all of my instructors have told me it was even much watered down from the late 1960's when Kwan Jang Nim first started teaching over here. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I suppose my point is, what defines TRADITIONAL TKD? TKD under General Choi? TKD before the unification of the styles? KTA TKD? KKW TKD? ITF? WTF? It all fragmented so quickly while it was still in it's infancy.

My personal lineage is one from Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, which is basically the bastard child of the unification process. Hwang Kee didn't want to unify under Choi, some of Hwang Kee's instructor's did though. When his instructors left, they kept the name Moo Duk Kwan, but left Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do and adopted the name Tae Kwon Do. I personally don't care what name you use. The only purpose the name serves is a road map of where you came from (which has its merit).

As for technique difference, many of the "traditional" schools adopted sport aspects over the course of time. We did not, although my Kwan Jang Nim was on the U.S. Olympic Committee in 1988 and in 1992.. . He had hoped that the Olympics would bring TKD into a new age, but when it did, he didn't like what it had become. "Chicken Fighting" is what he called it.

Again, I don't care what you call it. Sport TKD is a great SPORT. The issue comes in when, like many schools, it isn't strictly a SPORT school. There are elements of an art mixed in with the sport. Then it becomes murky as to how effective is the "art" because so much emphasis is being put on the "sport."

I am sure there are schools out there that blend the sport aspect and the art aspect well. But, IMHO, that is a difficult task.

Point in case, I competed in the Junior Olympics as a teen. Nearly every match I lost points due to "excessive contact." This was my first and only experience in the "sport," and I sparred just as I always sparred in class and in traditional tournaments. My limited experience with the sport left me with the feeling that the art and the sport were truly two different animals.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes Carol it is but one thing alot of people do not relize at times is that kick is coming so fast and with so much power are you able to stop it with hands up and the answer is most likely not. Alot of S.D. is practical but also it is about surprising your assaulant and this kick can get off with a blink of an eye and be landed very much at will with the proper training. When people watch the sportside only they need to ask themself this one question, can I block that kick and I can I survive if I ever get hit with that kick. If you can answer yes I can block that silly kick than I invite anybody at anytime to come over and do so, not a challenge but just saying until you have been hit with it you cannot understand the force that comes from it. I do not and would not throw this kick mainly becaus eI am older and not able to get the speed from the turn to generate the force needed to really effectively make it work anymore but in my younger days I have used it in S.D. and was very succesful with it.

Carol in no means is it an end all to alot of stituation but in the right place it can be devastateing to someone. Remember S.D. is about surviving not destroying.:asian:

I don't mean to nitpick and I am not bashing sport TKD. I do however want to make the point that we all train for different things. A kick might be well-nigh impossible to block under the rule set used in Olympic rules competition. I argue however that when grabbing, sweeping, leg checking, and throwing are permitted (or indeed when rules are thrown out the window altogether), it becomes a whole separate situation altogether. Then it becomes more a measure of whom is better is what they do. This might be the kicker, or it might not be, and consider that a lot of the time, someone might actually want their opponent to kick first as a committed attack of any type WILL provide an opening if the defender is skilled enough to take advantage of it.

 

[Carol]

Yes Carol it is but one thing alot of people do not relize at times is that kick is coming so fast and with so much power are you able to stop it with hands up and the answer is most likely not. Alot of S.D. is practical but also it is about surprising your assaulant and this kick can get off with a blink of an eye and be landed very much at will with the proper training. When people watch the sportside only they need to ask themself this one question, can I block that kick and I can I survive if I ever get hit with that kick. If you can answer yes I can block that silly kick than I invite anybody at anytime to come over and do so, not a challenge but just saying until you have been hit with it you cannot understand the force that comes from it. I do not and would not throw this kick mainly becaus eI am older and not able to get the speed from the turn to generate the force needed to really effectively make it work anymore but in my younger days I have used it in S.D. and was very succesful with it.

Carol in no means is it an end all to alot of stituation but in the right place it can be devastateing to someone. Remember S.D. is about surviving not destroying.:asian:

Thanks Terry :asian:

I think a person defaults to their level of training, and if they train fancy kicks and high kicks a lot, then they will be able to utilize them far more effectively than people who don't.

I just didn't think the clip was a fair offering of what the kick could do for self-defense when the practitioners have arms flaccid at their side and doing nothing for protecting the face. Doesn't it also make sense that a fighter that trains block and protect and have their guard up at all times when they fight will be able to do this far more effectively than people who don't?

Of course that kick is going to be nearly impossible to block if a person doesn't have their hands up. That's basic body mechanics.

 

[jthomas1600]

So you go to your club and you spend hours working on tornado kicks until you can actually successfully pull it off and score a point in a sparring session with it. While the actual kick may be worthless in a self defense situation the athletic ability, balance, agility, vision, etc. that you gained in the process certainly will not be useless in a self defense situation. At least that's my $0.02 and it's what I tell my kids.

 

[dancingalone]

So you go to your club and you spend hours working on tornado kicks until you can actually successfully pull it off and score a point in a sparring session with it. While the actual kick may be worthless in a self defense situation the athletic ability, balance, agility, vision, etc. that you gained in the process certainly will not be useless in a self defense situation. At least that's my $0.02 and it's what I tell my kids.

That may be the case. I have some doubts about the premise but I'm already going off-topic. In any case, this seems like a very indirect way to practice for self-defense... If we are concerned with SD, why not simply train for it rather than practice an esoteric technique in hopes that there might be some physical carryover?

 

[terryl965]

I don't mean to nitpick and I am not bashing sport TKD. I do however want to make the point that we all train for different things. A kick might be well-nigh impossible to block under the rule set used in Olympic rules competition. I argue however that when grabbing, sweeping, leg checking, and throwing are permitted (or indeed when rules are thrown out the window altogether), it becomes a whole separate situation altogether. Then it becomes more a measure of whom is better is what they do. This might be the kicker, or it might not be, and consider that a lot of the time, someone might actually want their opponent to kick first as a committed attack of any type WILL provide an opening if the defender is skilled enough to take advantage of it.

I completely agree with what you are saying, all I am adding is do not dis- regards some of the kicks in the sport as if they cannot do any damage to someone. Like you said we have to take in all accounts to be profiecent at S.D. and one thing is to never underestimate your opponet whether in the ring or on the street.

 

[jthomas1600]

That may be the case. I have some doubts about the premise but I'm already going off-topic. In any case, this seems like a very indirect way to practice for self-defense... If we are concerned with SD, why not simply train for it rather than practice an esoteric technique in hopes that there might be some physical carryover?

Eh, you're right, we're off topic (and it's a good topic by the way) but just to respond...first off I'm a practical use what works SD guy at heart and just sort of ended up at a school that skews towards the sport aspect a bit. So the statement I made earlier is a result of my trying to take what I'm learning and finding the value in it. We work on practical stuff too, but we do a lot of tornado, spinning jumping hook kicks type things I'd never use on the streets. Anyway, if you go to a football practice or basketball practice you will see them doing all kinds of things that don't look like football or basketball. They are doing them to improve athletically. We do jumping jacks to help with our cardio, why not also do jumping kicks to help with our cardio and athleticism as well? Anyway, sorry for the off topic.

 

[terryl965]

Thanks Terry :asian:

I think a person defaults to their level of training, and if they train fancy kicks and high kicks a lot, then they will be able to utilize them far more effectively than people who don't.

I just didn't think the clip was a fair offering of what the kick could do for self-defense when the practitioners have arms flaccid at their side and doing nothing for protecting the face. Doesn't it also make sense that a fighter that trains block and protect and have their guard up at all times when they fight will be able to do this far more effectively than people who don't?

Of course that kick is going to be nearly impossible to block if a person doesn't have their hands up. That's basic body mechanics.

Carol yes to some degree, lets take the average person robbing someone are they condition the arms to be like concrete because if not that kick thrown from a proper person would break alot of forearms. So from that perspective it would be a stopper, now if a 120 weak link that learned the kick does not generate the speed and power than it is useless, but if a well train person deliver that blow it might be devastating to they robber. Now this is alot of this and that but one thing for sure certain kick can be used from the right person insome stituations. Remember not saying all but certain.

 

[dancingalone]

Anyway, if you go to a football practice or basketball practice you will see them doing all kinds of things that don't look like football or basketball. They are doing them to improve athletically. We do jumping jacks to help with our cardio, why not also do jumping kicks to help with our cardio and athleticism as well?

IMO, it's fine if we explain it as such. On the other hand if the student is misled whether unintentionally or not, he might find himself in a fine pickle some day. It doesn't even have to be a jumping kick. I love it when someone aims a high roundhouse kick towards my head, since it is a common scenario I try to address in my training.

 

[terryl965]

To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.

For one thing...there were fewer belts

But, as you already alluded to, you spent a lot more time in that belt since getting from one to the other took a heck of a lot of time.

Which also translates to… there were no guarantees of how long it would take to get a black belt nor where there any guarantees that you would actually get one.

And of course no contracts to sigh either

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So you go to your club and you spend hours working on tornado kicks until you can actually successfully pull it off and score a point in a sparring session with it. While the actual kick may be worthless in a self defense situation the athletic ability, balance, agility, vision, etc. that you gained in the process certainly will not be useless in a self defense situation. At least that's my $0.02 and it's what I tell my kids.

Worthless? Not worthless so much as being a kick that you can only use if the contitions are absolutely perfect. In other words, that one-in-a-million chance.

kicks like the tornado kick, however, have a secondary purpose. In training to do the kick itself, you must raise the bar of your own athleticism. You have to train very hard and you need to develop a great degree of core strength. The hard work pays off in a myriad of ways.

First of all, you can do something that you couldn't do before, which is an accomplishment in and of itself.

Second, the increased athletic ability that you developed to do a kick such as the tornado kick benefits all of the rest of your kicks.

Third, you can now actually use it in competition. If you use it successfully in competition (which is against a resisting opponent), then you have a chance of being able to pull it off in that one-in-a-million circumstance where actually is the right tool for the job.

Fourth, it looks great in demonstrations, which can bring students to the school who can now start benefiting from the same training that has benefited you.

In other words, you don't just develop a kick. You develop yourself as a taekwondoist. And personal development is a large part of both traditional and sport taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

The tae kwon do practiced in the forties, fifties, and sixties did not have the variety of spinning and jumping high kicks so prevalent today. They were added during the late sixties or early seventies according to a few interviews I have read with people like He Il Cho or Kim Soo, senior people who were around and practicing KMA for much of this time. Kim Soo was a part of the kwan period before General Choi unified the kwans under his direction for a time.

As for why kicks are taught dominantly now, there are several explanations which all undoubtedly have some truth to them.

• a desire to diverge from Japanese karate
• an attempt to rekindle a Korean martial art using the tae kyon mythos
• flashy kicks are cool and bring in students
• the WTF needed something truly different to get their sport into the games and Olympic rules TKD sparring is certainly different from anything that came before it
• some honestly have bought into the kick first fighting philosophy

a desire to diverge from Japanese karate

This one holds allot of validity for me...My kids are currently taking Shotokan Karate(Sport). Based on 2 months of observation TKD Sport rules seem to have been developed to be the exact opposite of Sport Karate!

 

[Manny]

To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.

OUCH!!! Yes this is very true, I can remember the way we did poomsae in the 80's, lots of repetitions watching the perfect motion to get an outstanding performance doing the poomsae, this days poomsea is shown, barely practiced and in the wrong and then examination.

I remeber too when in examination you got cualifications per every part of the test, the examinator put you cualification (0 to 10) in technike,poomsae,kyompa,one steps kyorugy, self defense and kyourugy and the minimal average for these was 80 of 100 points possible, the examinator gave your grades and told you wre do you have to improve for the next time and.... yes there were some persons that did not pass the examination and this was a shame for them.

Manny

 

[Gorilla]

To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.

This is how my kids have been trained. They were first taught the techniques in each form. The they are taught the form. Once they have mastered the form they work on the practical aspects of each form. They know every form up to Jitae. They spent 3 hours last night going over SD Applications of Jitae. They love this method and it is helped them when they teach it. They are proficient at teaching up to Taebaek. They also spend allot of time breaking down each technique in the color belt forms(down to the smallest detail) to keep getting better. They are being trained in forms by a Master who got his BB in 1964. It has been a great experience for my kids.

 

[dancingalone]

Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.

Well, I remember my 1st dan test in TKD. I got the hell beat out of me. Lots of rounds with the lower ranks to tire you out. Then your fellow brown belts who all are trying to look good themselves. Then the black belts, sometimes multiples of them at once. You didn't have to win every fight. Technical proficiency disappears after a while and it's really all about heart and your determination to never quit, to take someone down with you, if you are going down yourself.

Of course, physical and PAINFUL tests like those just don't happen these days in commercial studios for obvious reasons. They might still occur in small private clubs.

In retrospect, this might surprise some, but I do think the test I went through was a little excessive. At the same time, I understand the point of the ordeal and some of it IS needed from time to time during the progression of a student to black belt, even if it doesn't necessarily have to come all at once at the end as an initiation.