Traditional TKD

MJS

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I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not a TKD student. That being said, in an effrot to better understand the art, I'm posting this topic. :) I'll also say that I'm looking to have a serious discussion here, so if someone can't post on topic or is going to post for the sake of stirring the pot, save yourself and everyone else some headache and please...dont post! :)

So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.

What I'm looking to discuss here, is to hear from those that have experience with what the traditional, hard core, old school, TKD is like. So, if you have that experience, if you teach it, please share with me what exactly you do. If your GM has the exp., please share. :)

Not looking to cause flames here. Just attempting to better understand your art. I know there're alot of knowledgeable TKD folks on here, so I'll now turn the thread over to you. :)

Mike
 

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The majority of my taekwondo experience was traditional. It was geared towards defending yourself in a violent confrontation, though it also included the self improvement element that most 'do' arts tend to have.

We sparred with minimal gear (cup, mouthpiece, gloves and sometimes headgear) and had a much more comprehensive body of techniques allowed in sparring. One dojang that I trained in had sprung hardwood floors instead of mats.

We trained in probably more hand techniques than kicks, though we did plenty of those too, and we had a few standing grapples to round out the mix. Nothing elaborate, but simple, easily learned and easily used techniques (arm bars, wrist locks, grabs and sweeps, etc.).

The primary reason for my shift to hapkido was that the taekwondo school where I trained shifted its focus from SD with a sportive element to pretty much all sport and two fifth dan hapkido instructors joined the staff. Our Kwanjang was a TKD competitor in Korea and an HKD instructor in the ROK, as well as being a high dan in the IHF, so I had a great deal of incentive to shift, as my training focus is SD, rather than sport.

As a kendoist, I already have an art with a strong sportive element to train in, so I really wanted to keep my unarmed training focused on SD. Had our school not shifted its focus to sport, I'd still be in taekwondo class. If time were not a limiting factor, I'd do all three arts.

One observation about successful sport taekwondoists: they train easily as hard as we did in the old traditional school. Their focus is different, but I respect the training and the effort that goes into it. It is not an easy sport.

Daniel
 
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Mike I started out in Korean Karate a long time ago, it was TKD but people here in America knew Karate so alot of old Koreans used that term to bring in students. My G.M. would put us in deep horse stances and walk behind us with a kendo stick and wack the backsid eof your calfs, you better not move or it came again. We would get in stances low and rooted has it was called and held buckets filled with sand with our hands out to build strength. The poomsae/Kata's where based on application instead of high kicks and flash.

Man I would remember going home bruised up because the self defense was real and what I meant was you actually hit one another to see if you could block and counter at full speed. some of my foundes memories are of that era. Today we have sport classes for those wanting competition but I also have five traditional classes per week and those are the ones I love even though sometimes I go home and everything hurts for a few hours, I am completely satisfied because we got to work hard and find out what will work for us and what just cannot be done and we ned to make changes for ourselfs.

Back in Tex kwon Do the Allen Stern, Pat Burleson era we had all out wars at competition, it was a way to test you man hood as they would say. I guess with lawyers and the persuit of being sued over people getting hurt TKD has moved away and into the sport and for family fitness, it is consider a way of life and a journey of peace and happiness, nothing wrong with that but the old days are missed by alot of us old guys that can remember the way of TKD.
 
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dancingalone

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I have 2 answers for you.

1) I studied an early American version of Tae Kwon Do from Jhoon Rhee's line in Texas through Alan Steen. I don't know if I would classify it as traditional in the sense as I currently understand the word, but I am sure that many would.

The system had lots of elements from traditional karate/TKD practice like

  • forms practice (we used the General Choi forms, but we performed them like how Jhoon Rhee taught them)
  • non-integrated one step sparring (totally unlinked to the patterns)
  • self-defense against common grabs and attacks (again unrelated to the patterns)
  • breaking
There was plenty of nontraditional things taught too, such as a high boxing-influenced guard along with hooks and uppercuts. And we sparred. A lot. With lots of contact and it was a common experience to leave with a few bruises or a fat lip or a bloody nose. Lots of calisthenics too.

Overall, it was a fantastic system for practical self-defense. You actually learned to hit while avoiding being hit yourself, and this was taught in a tough-minded atmosphere. I eventually left in search of something more 'sophisticated' however.

2) I am currently teaching an experimental form of tae kwon do with the aim of using 'traditional' means of pedagogy. One of my biggest frustrations with TKD as it is generally taught is that the forms are unconnected with the practical part of the curriculum - they're generally for competitive endeavors or they represent the 'art' side. Bah.

So with that in mind, I want to make patterns the centerpiece of the instructional model. One steps, self-defense, free sparring combinations, etc, should all CONNECT back to the forms. This makes the patterns relevant and thus their practice meaningful. It's really not hard to do this as I have discovered. I am using the Choi forms as a nod to the heritage of TKD, but I could have easily have picked the old Shotokan kata used by the Kwans pre-KTA. I could have also used the Palgwe forms too since they're really very similar to the Choi and Heian/Pyung Ahn forms.
 

Carol

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This doesn't look like Olympic TKD. The folks in the commercial have their hands up and everything ;)

[yt]n7PEMGuA6tw[/yt]
 

Daniel Sullivan

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1) I studied an early American version of Tae Kwon Do from Jhoon Rhee's line in Texas through Alan Steen. I don't know if I would classify it as traditional in the sense as I currently understand the word, but I am sure that many would.

The system had lots of elements from traditional karate/TKD practice like

  • forms practice (we used the General Choi forms, but we performed them like how Jhoon Rhee taught them)
  • non-integrated one step sparring (totally unlinked to the patterns)
  • self-defense against common grabs and attacks (again unrelated to the patterns)
  • breaking
There was plenty of nontraditional things taught too, such as a high boxing-influenced guard along with hooks and uppercuts.
Just an observation: at the time of 'early American Taekwondo', taekwondo as a distinct art was less than twenty years old and could hardly be called 'traditional' at that time, being essentially karate with new forms. Taekwondo was still trying to find its identity as 'not karate' and has since found its niche in the martial arts world.

Back then, I'm not sure that the term "traditional martial arts" even existed. If it did, it likely referred not to arts with belts but to koryo arts, as judo was less than a century old, Shotokan and aikido less than fifty years old, hapkido less than thirty and taekwondo as a distinctly separate entity less than twenty.

Traditional wasn't a consideration until the "non traditional" arts became more widely known in the eighties and estalished martial arts began to expand their focus into fitness and childrens activities and combat sports like kickboxing and other newer martial sports that had an Asian MA feel to their technique set but also included non Asian MA techniques as well, such as from boxing, became popular.

Daniel
 
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MJS

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Well, this thread is a nice breath of fresh air, from the usual pissing matches. :) Thanks to everyone who's already posted, for you well thought out replies. :) Of course, please feel free to add more if you choose. :)
 
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MJS

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I have 2 answers for you.

1) I studied an early American version of Tae Kwon Do from Jhoon Rhee's line in Texas through Alan Steen. I don't know if I would classify it as traditional in the sense as I currently understand the word, but I am sure that many would.

The system had lots of elements from traditional karate/TKD practice like

  • forms practice (we used the General Choi forms, but we performed them like how Jhoon Rhee taught them)
  • non-integrated one step sparring (totally unlinked to the patterns)
  • self-defense against common grabs and attacks (again unrelated to the patterns)
  • breaking
There was plenty of nontraditional things taught too, such as a high boxing-influenced guard along with hooks and uppercuts. And we sparred. A lot. With lots of contact and it was a common experience to leave with a few bruises or a fat lip or a bloody nose. Lots of calisthenics too.

Overall, it was a fantastic system for practical self-defense. You actually learned to hit while avoiding being hit yourself, and this was taught in a tough-minded atmosphere. I eventually left in search of something more 'sophisticated' however.

2) I am currently teaching an experimental form of tae kwon do with the aim of using 'traditional' means of pedagogy. One of my biggest frustrations with TKD as it is generally taught is that the forms are unconnected with the practical part of the curriculum - they're generally for competitive endeavors or they represent the 'art' side. Bah.

So with that in mind, I want to make patterns the centerpiece of the instructional model. One steps, self-defense, free sparring combinations, etc, should all CONNECT back to the forms. This makes the patterns relevant and thus their practice meaningful. It's really not hard to do this as I have discovered. I am using the Choi forms as a nod to the heritage of TKD, but I could have easily have picked the old Shotokan kata used by the Kwans pre-KTA. I could have also used the Palgwe forms too since they're really very similar to the Choi and Heian/Pyung Ahn forms.

What were some of the main differences between the Rhee forms and the Choi forms? I dont know the forms, but it sounds like what you're doing is going to polish them up a bit, making them more practical or applicable. :)
 

Daniel Sullivan

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This doesn't look like Olympic TKD. The folks in the commercial have their hands up and everything ;)

[yt]n7PEMGuA6tw[/yt]
I remember that commercial. Took classes at Jhoon Rhee as well. Thats the one with the Nils Lofgren gingle. I also remember the same commercial with the original music that sounded more like the Enter the Dragon theme.

Daniel
 

Daniel Sullivan

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What were some of the main differences between the Rhee forms and the Choi forms? I dont know the forms, but it sounds like what you're doing is going to polish them up a bit, making them more practical or applicable. :)
So far as I remember, Jhoon Rhee used the Chang Hon forms that Gen. Choi created.

Daniel
 

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I remember that commercial. Took classes at Jhoon Rhee as well. Thats the one with the Nils Lofgren gingle. I also remember the same commercial with the original music that sounded more like the Enter the Dragon theme.

Daniel

I forgot about that one!! I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere.

Every time I visited my grandparents, I was absolutely glued to Channel 20. I think I can still sing the Kimba The White Lion theme song from memory. :lol:
 

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What were some of the main differences between the Rhee forms and the Choi forms?

The forms are the same ones, just executed with a different emphasis. The biggest differences are in the chambering of the arms for the blocks and strikes. If you look at how the various ITF groups currently perform the patterns, they tend to load up at the sides for the upper and lower blocks so they can get as much hip turn into the motion as possible. The Jhoon Rhee method will sacrifice the purity of the motion for speed as well as limiting one's exposure to being hit yourself in the execution.

And of course, the ITF people use sine wave, which is a whole other discussion.

Edit: Oh, I should add that we shouldn't confuse the Rhee forms I am referencing with his latest 'Martial Ballet' inventions. I never learned those and while the patterns themselves are OK, I'm not a fan of performing them to music.


I dont know the forms, but it sounds like what you're doing is going to polish them up a bit, making them more practical or applicable. :)

I don't know that I am changing the forms myself, although some of the ways I perform certain moves inevitably will have a karate influence to them since that has been my primary art for years now. Some of this is subtle, such as tucking in my pelvis as I walk, etc.

The primary changes I have made is to actually devise training drills and applications coming out of the forms. Thus, each belt level may have 1 or 2 forms along with the accompanying one steps/3 steps and formal self-defense/bunkai.
 
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dancingalone

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Just an observation: at the time of 'early American Taekwondo', taekwondo as a distinct art was less than twenty years old and could hardly be called 'traditional' at that time
....

I'm using the word 'traditional' with regard to the training drills borrowed from karate and tode before that. Kata and partner drills are known to have been used as far back as the late 1800's and likely before that too if we look at the Fukien martial arts who are the antecedents to Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu karate.
 

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Mike,
First, I'd like to say that knowing what spurred this thread, I appreciate your taking the time to better understand what you claim to know little about. Unfortunately, given the circumstances of what has brought our art into the world spotlight, so many misconceptions have to be expected.

Second, I'd like to say that what I'm describing below identifies the training as done by my school, the schools I was trained in and affiliated with. Other schools and affiliations will vary.

I am certified by the Kukkiwon and teach primarily what you refer to as "traditional" Taekwondo. While we do recognize a real value in sparring, it is by no means an all inclusive representation of what we do and teach.

Though Taekwondo is seen primarily as a kicking art, We work as much with hands as we do with feet and even incorporate knees and elbows. While linear striking is our apparent trademark, I can assure you balance and leverage are as much a part of our movement as any art. We teach how to identify anatomical weak points, specific strike points, with emphasis on muscle seams and most importantly, body language. Every one of my students even knows how to take an attackers eyes out (though the intestinal fortitude to actually do it is an altogethjer different topic). The differnce in strikes that will cause external damage as opposed to internal damage, techniques that will subdue or debilitate and each practitioner understanding (and working within) their own physical and mental constraints and limitations.

One of the biggest differences are students at black belt level. Many arts award a black belt when a student has mastered their art or demonstarted a thorough knowledge of their art's techniques and how to implement them. We teach a slightly different philosophy. A student reaches black belt level by demonstrating an acceptable level of proficiency of basic hand and foot techniques. Being a black belt means you have the basic tools required to begin your training. Does that mean you're incapable of defending yourself before then or your techniques are ineffective? Of course not. Techniques to defend yourself begin on day one. Students ability to effectively execute them depend on the student, much as any other art. My own experience though, has confirmed a common observation that most Taekwondo techniques are more difficult to learn than other arts, but they're worth the effort.

Most uncommonly known is our practice of joint manipulation, very similar to Hapkido. Though what we practice does not exactly resemble what you see in say, the UFC, the principle of technique is the same and therefore, the result. Clean joint locks are very difficult to execute effectively, so we spend a lot of time on them. We defend with our hands up protecting our head and body. The most common misconception is that we can't fight on the ground. That's in a word, rediculous. Though we do not take our techniiques to the ground per se, anyone who thinks we cannot apply our techniques on the ground has never tried it against someone who knows what they're doing.

The reason I think this is not common knowledge is simply because most students (as with most arts) quit after a year or so and very few take it to the black belt level. It's advanced learning that we do not practice at junior levels. Students must demonstrate an acceptable level of skill before this training starts. Even fewer students achieve proficiency because it takes literally thousands of attempts and most students get bored and want to train in something new and exciting like weapons. Because of this, few practitioners are what you might consider "dangerous" at comparable levels. This is why when discussing Taekwondo I try to understand the experience level of practitioner or individual I'm talking to. Taekwondo is an onion with many layers. It is truly an effective art for anyone who's willing to put in the effort to attain what it has to offer.

Another major difference is understanding Taekwondo is and art, not just a sport. In other words, we don't limit ourselves soley to the physical attributes of Taekwondo. The mental and philisophical attributes are just as important as many other arts that incorporate it into their training. (Again, this does not mean that sport Taekwondo does not practice these things) Acceptance of the tenets, basic understanding of Korean history, culture and events that led to the unification of the kwans and ultinately the birth of modern day Taekwondo. Always speculative yet interesting as there are no "official" records of what transpired. Personally, one of my favorite topics (See stickies in Taekwondo section). :)

I could keep going on any may later. Sorry if i got too lengthy. I truly love my art and will talk obout it endlessly.

Regards,
 

dancingalone

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Mike,
A student reaches black belt level by demonstrating an acceptable level of proficiency of basic hand and foot techniques. Being a black belt means you have the basic tools required to begin your training.

....

Most uncommonly known is our practice of joint manipulation, very similar to Hapkido. Though what we practice does not exactly resemble what you see in say, the UFC, the principle of technique is the same and therefore, the result. Clean joint locks are very difficult to execute effectively, so we spend a lot of time on them.

....

The reason I think this is not common knowledge is simply because most students (as with most arts) quit after a year or so and very few take it to the black belt level. It's advanced learning that we do not practice at junior levels. Students must demonstrate an acceptable level of skill before this training starts. Even fewer students achieve proficiency because it takes literally thousands of attempts and most students get bored and want to train in something new and exciting like weapons.

Excellent post.

I totally concur that tae kwon do is an effective a martial art as any other if taught in a complete fashion. Unfortunately, the quality of instruction is generally poor, at least in my experience. The reasons why are numerous: a focus on teaching children, too many junior black belts opening their own schools and passing on their relatively small and limited body of knowledge, a general lack of desire from the public to learn ALL of IT, etc.

I don't think there's anything that can be done to reverse course for the masses. At this point, fragmentation in the TKD is permanent with some preferring to practice sport, some preferring to emphasize teaching positive character traits to children. And that's fine. Both of those things are good things. At the same time, however, 'traditional' TKD teachers can successfully exist in the margins and continue to pass on their own expressions of TKD, offering a choice to those who are seeking this out.
 

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Fisrt of all congratulations!!! Nice polite post and all the replies are very fine and I am with you guys in almost all you wrote about traditional TKD.

I started in Korean Karate too, infact the advertisement of my former dojang said Ji Do Kwan Karate Koreano, and you know why, TKD was a korena name and the people in Mexico don't get it so people tendes to name karate or kung fu to almost MA.

I trained in a wooden floor oh yes I rember the bllod blisters and the warm up was agresive, not only we did stretches but also hard conditioning like nucle push ups, a lot of crunches and strengtening exercices, we were WTD Style but we practiced hand techs but the kicking techs predominate, we did a lot of one and three steps sparrings and we did something called half kyorugi and full kyorugi, in full kyorugi we rarely used hogu, maybe shin pads and a cup but that was all (in the begining). Yes we were not so flashy like today but I think we don't waste time and energy in flashy kicks almost all the kicks were direct and hard to block.

Today I train in a paded foam floor and we dod a lot os stretching with no su much enphasis in hard core warm up, teh kicks must be high, and we use an armor like the Zodyak Knights to do kyorugy, less self defense and most of the trainining is kick techs. The training is very tough talking about stamina and as a cardio work out is tremendous.

Now I have my own class, the class I tecah is for men (not chuildren, not teens, not young studs) and I am trying to do my class tardional, makin stress in basics and in a furture self defense, WE (myself and students) are not interested in WTF/Olimpic Kyorugi howevere when the time comes we are going to follow the WTD rules for sparring AND... maybe we will do some kind of ITF/Point Saprring sparring using only the cup,globes and shin protectors, so basically to follow the WTF way of my sambonim we are going to do WTF Sparring and for my standars point sparring using even hands to the face (in a controled way we don't need to kill each other to do things right). About poomsae ww will adhere to the kukiwon taeguks and talking about self defense we are going to teach/leran sound techs that can be used on the streets. Yes kyumpa is a thing we are going to do regulary, as the heavy bag and kicking shield and the palchagis just for speed.

My studenst are all white belts without kyu so I am doing things slowly but it's my goal to teach them slef defense more than kicking the air or the palchaguis.

Manny
 

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Excellent post.

I totally concur that tae kwon do is an effective a martial art as any other if taught in a complete fashion. Unfortunately, the quality of instruction is generally poor, at least in my experience. The reasons why are numerous: a focus on teaching children, too many junior black belts opening their own schools and passing on their relatively small and limited body of knowledge, a general lack of desire from the public to learn ALL of IT, etc.
I must concur, sadly.

I don't think there's anything that can be done to reverse course for the masses. At this point, fragmentation in the TKD is permanent with some preferring to practice sport, some preferring to emphasize teaching positive character traits to children. And that's fine. Both of those things are good things. At the same time, however, 'traditional' TKD teachers can successfully exist in the margins and continue to pass on their own expressions of TKD, offering a choice to those who are seeking this out.
I think that sport is probably the key. Separate the sport and run it like a sport with programs geared towards kids of different ages. Another easy fix would be to call the sport TKD and refer to the art as taekwondo.

That way, there would be a clear delineation between the martial art and the sport.

Given the size of the Kukkiwon, one good fix would be for the Kukkiwon to make dan-bo and up require an association test. That way, KKW authorized instructors go to the school to oversee the test and the results are graded above the dojo level. That would solve the black belt issue.

Daniel
 

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Oh, I should add that we shouldn't confuse the Rhee forms I am referencing with his latest 'Martial Ballet' inventions. I never learned those and while the patterns themselves are OK, I'm not a fan of performing them to music.
I believe that these were collectively called something along the lines of 'Might for Right Martial Ballet.' I had forgotten about that.

Daniel
 
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The forms are the same ones, just executed with a different emphasis. The biggest differences are in the chambering of the arms for the blocks and strikes. If you look at how the various ITF groups currently perform the patterns, they tend to load up at the sides for the upper and lower blocks so they can get as much hip turn into the motion as possible. The Jhoon Rhee method will sacrifice the purity of the motion for speed as well as limiting one's exposure to being hit yourself in the execution.

And of course, the ITF people use sine wave, which is a whole other discussion.

Edit: Oh, I should add that we shouldn't confuse the Rhee forms I am referencing with his latest 'Martial Ballet' inventions. I never learned those and while the patterns themselves are OK, I'm not a fan of performing them to music.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. :)




I don't know that I am changing the forms myself, although some of the ways I perform certain moves inevitably will have a karate influence to them since that has been my primary art for years now. Some of this is subtle, such as tucking in my pelvis as I walk, etc.

The primary changes I have made is to actually devise training drills and applications coming out of the forms. Thus, each belt level may have 1 or 2 forms along with the accompanying one steps/3 steps and formal self-defense/bunkai.

I've run into this same issue with some of the Anyos (forms) in Modern Arnis. One of the head guys in the group is a BB in Isshin Ryu. Its obvious, watching him do the forms, that the other art influenced the Arnis forms.
 
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Mike,
First, I'd like to say that knowing what spurred this thread, I appreciate your taking the time to better understand what you claim to know little about. Unfortunately, given the circumstances of what has brought our art into the world spotlight, so many misconceptions have to be expected.

No problem. :)

Second, I'd like to say that what I'm describing below identifies the training as done by my school, the schools I was trained in and affiliated with. Other schools and affiliations will vary.

I am certified by the Kukkiwon and teach primarily what you refer to as "traditional" Taekwondo. While we do recognize a real value in sparring, it is by no means an all inclusive representation of what we do and teach.

Though Taekwondo is seen primarily as a kicking art, We work as much with hands as we do with feet and even incorporate knees and elbows. While linear striking is our apparent trademark, I can assure you balance and leverage are as much a part of our movement as any art. We teach how to identify anatomical weak points, specific strike points, with emphasis on muscle seams and most importantly, body language. Every one of my students even knows how to take an attackers eyes out (though the intestinal fortitude to actually do it is an altogethjer different topic). The differnce in strikes that will cause external damage as opposed to internal damage, techniques that will subdue or debilitate and each practitioner understanding (and working within) their own physical and mental constraints and limitations.

One of the biggest differences are students at black belt level. Many arts award a black belt when a student has mastered their art or demonstarted a thorough knowledge of their art's techniques and how to implement them. We teach a slightly different philosophy. A student reaches black belt level by demonstrating an acceptable level of proficiency of basic hand and foot techniques. Being a black belt means you have the basic tools required to begin your training. Does that mean you're incapable of defending yourself before then or your techniques are ineffective? Of course not. Techniques to defend yourself begin on day one. Students ability to effectively execute them depend on the student, much as any other art. My own experience though, has confirmed a common observation that most Taekwondo techniques are more difficult to learn than other arts, but they're worth the effort.

Most uncommonly known is our practice of joint manipulation, very similar to Hapkido. Though what we practice does not exactly resemble what you see in say, the UFC, the principle of technique is the same and therefore, the result. Clean joint locks are very difficult to execute effectively, so we spend a lot of time on them. We defend with our hands up protecting our head and body. The most common misconception is that we can't fight on the ground. That's in a word, rediculous. Though we do not take our techniiques to the ground per se, anyone who thinks we cannot apply our techniques on the ground has never tried it against someone who knows what they're doing.

The reason I think this is not common knowledge is simply because most students (as with most arts) quit after a year or so and very few take it to the black belt level. It's advanced learning that we do not practice at junior levels. Students must demonstrate an acceptable level of skill before this training starts. Even fewer students achieve proficiency because it takes literally thousands of attempts and most students get bored and want to train in something new and exciting like weapons. Because of this, few practitioners are what you might consider "dangerous" at comparable levels. This is why when discussing Taekwondo I try to understand the experience level of practitioner or individual I'm talking to. Taekwondo is an onion with many layers. It is truly an effective art for anyone who's willing to put in the effort to attain what it has to offer.

Another major difference is understanding Taekwondo is and art, not just a sport. In other words, we don't limit ourselves soley to the physical attributes of Taekwondo. The mental and philisophical attributes are just as important as many other arts that incorporate it into their training. (Again, this does not mean that sport Taekwondo does not practice these things) Acceptance of the tenets, basic understanding of Korean history, culture and events that led to the unification of the kwans and ultinately the birth of modern day Taekwondo. Always speculative yet interesting as there are no "official" records of what transpired. Personally, one of my favorite topics (See stickies in Taekwondo section). :)

I could keep going on any may later. Sorry if i got too lengthy. I truly love my art and will talk obout it endlessly.

Regards,

Thank you for a detailed post. :) This is what I was hoping to get out of this thread, and so far so good. By all means, add more if you'd like. As for the joint lock stuff....yes, you're correct...up until now, I had no idea any of that stuff was in there.
 

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