WTF TKD sparring hands down?

TKDHermit

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Just sharing the ongoings for Kukkiwon TKD in Singapore

In Singapore [talking about Kukkiwon style here - WTF is not a style of TKD, it's just a tournamenting style], and especially for testing to Chodan and above, our poomsae and technique must be hell accurate. And for the sparring part, if u're only gonna spam round kicks u're gonna get scolded. The examiners expect to see a variation of kicks and tactics like sliding in/out, sidestepping, switchin, of course, according to the situation.

There was some mention about poomsae not having guards up. In fact Poomsae does have arms-up guards, during the kicking parts. I remember there was a time I was doing Taegeuk 3, while I was kicking, the next move was a punch, so one arm was on the belt, the other was supposed to be a guard, I held it at stomach level and got a "GUARD AT CHEST LEVEL NOT STOMACH LEVEL DON'T LEARN THE BAD HABITS!!!" from my coach, a 6th Dan. For kicks, in which after that kick is a guard or something, both arms up at chest level. We don't test breaking though, only for demo, although Hosinsul is tested at Dan ranks. And of course, we're taught not to swing our arms around for momentum for kicks. Even when kicking in class, keep your arms in guarding position to yourself.

As for tournaments, what you see in the olympics doesn't happen in Singapore. Sparring is continuous, no "YEAH I SCORED" action after each kick, if you do that, you're gonna get scored while u're exclaiming - although a handful would do that. And of course, no running out of the court like some guy did in 2008 Olympics for the last 3 seconds. If that happened here the fighter will be disqualified. Side kicks and back thrusts are scored, but not by pushing alone. There must be impact. Simply put, even if someone does a pure-push sidekick or backthrust, and the recepient flies far like maybe 2-3m or more, it won't count. Even tapping head kicks don't count. And the sound must clear be coming from a legal attack [from the ankle and below]. If the sound regardless of volume came from the contact of the shin guard + hogu, no points. Precision, all or almost all martial arts emphasize that [never heard of one which does not -.-]. Attack using the foot, not the shin, I believe that is how it's taught in traditional TKD?


Off-topic but responses to previous posts

I saw someone mentioning WTF sparring rules don't allow fighters to guard with the shins? They couldn't dismiss the possibility that the fighter was chambering for a kick. I guard with my shins most of the time.

Earlier in this topic there was this "chambering axe kick" that supposedly misguided their opponent into moving in for the hit. Isn't that what TKD kicks were supposed to do even in the traditional art? The reason for the chambering as far as I know is to not let your opponent know which kick is going to be executed until it's executed. How wrong is that? Why be a stick-in-the-mud and insist that an axe kick must go straight up straight down? If the target slides off the straight line, does it mean that the kick MUST STILL go straight down and miss its target? Ever heard of Shin-chul Kang? The one who did the Revolution of Kicking, you can find the entire series on youtube. He mentions [not in the series, but in Human Weapon] that for the axe kick, there are 3 BASIC types of lifting your leg up - outside in, inside out, straight up straight down. And please be reminded that a crescent kick has a relatively huge arc. Slight deviation from the straight line to adapt to the situation - is that unacceptable? Keep what is useful, modify what is not.

Surely now we know full situps and deep knee bends [like that of some chinese kungfu whose horse stances are so deep] are bad for health, should we still stick to them because they are traditional? Basically what I think is that, what is effective from the traditional methods should be kept and used, what is not should be removed/modified - like how Professor Kano Jigoro, founder of Judo, refined Jujutsu into modern Judo. Speaking of Judo, there was an early post saying Olympic Judo is done like how it's taught. I can tell u it is NOT. Quite a number of olympic Judoka are gaming the game as well, doing sacrifice throws to stall for time, crouching down and slapping away opponent's hands right at the beginning. That is not what Judo was intended to be like.

And I'm kind of baffled why everyone mentions blocking a kick, but not parrying a kick? Surely changing the direction of a moving object is easier than stopping it head-on, and definitely less broken arms -.-


On topic

Keep hands down - 2 different types.

1. Keep hands down but guarding the front half of the hogu, it's bloody irritating.

2. Really hands down with no guard, against an impatient/fast enough opponent it will invite a slide-in roundhouse.

It really depends on what you're trying to do. Eespecially so if you can observe your next opponent in his previous matches. Look out for his dominant leg, his temperament, then decide what to do when facing him, when in closed stance and when in open stance.




As for my opinion towards WTF sparring vs SD or other rules, the most important thing is to identify the setting you're in, then adapt. The moment you step from your house onto the streets, you must remember that you are on the street, hands up, no holds barred. The moment you transfer from off the mat to on the mat, with hogu and everything on, remember that there are WTF rules to follow, and you adapt. The moment you finish your match, you step off the mat, forget the rules. If you're in a real street SD, no rules, heck just backfist to the throat and kick to the groin or elbow to the temple or whatever crap and get out of there. If there's a weapon pick it up and use it. No time for styles distinction when it comes to SD, whatever works, use it. For me, since I'm fat, the only 3 kicks I will use are front kick, round kick and side kick [blast the knees please], the rest will be upper body work.

To me, there's really no big distinction between styles. TKD has elbow and knee strikes in its traditional form [as taught by GM J H Kim and his students]. No one said only Muay Thai peeps could use knees and elbows. In fact most styles have more or less the same/similar techinques.

To me, a master of TKD should be both proficient in BOTH the sport AND martial art aspects, and basically being able to adapt to any situation.
 

zDom

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To clarify, I never said the the kicks that don't have a downward motion are BAD (in fact, they were nice smacks!) only that they aren't axe kicks.

If they are striking the side of the head with a lateral movement with the side of the heel, they should be called crescent kicks.

If they are strking with an upward and/or forward motion into the face, they are a front or stomping kick (or upward raising kick).

If they are dropping from above onto the target — with a straight leg OR chambering with the knee but STILL dropping from above: THEN you have an axe kick.

It is all about which direction the kick is coming from, the direction of movement.

Why so touchy/defensive? I thought the kicks were very nice. They hit the opponent with significant force.

But lumping all kicks thrown from an upright position with the knee pointing upward into a catchall name "axe kick" makes differentiating problematic. If they are striking from different directions (upward/forward; side-lateral; downward-from-above) and with different parts of the foot then why NOT use DIFFERENT NAMES for the kicks?

They ARE different!
 

kaizasosei

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i agree with zDom on this. one needs to differentiate between kicks for the sake of communication.

i think that ax kick and crecent kick are similar in many ways and can morph into one another...either they come from the outside or the inside or they snake in and out or out and in.

j
 

FearlessFreep

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i agree with zDom on this. one needs to differentiate between kicks for the sake of communication.

i think that ax kick and crecent kick are similar in many ways and can morph into one another...either they come from the outside or the inside or they snake in and out or out and in.

j

Which axe kick? ...I know about four :) (or more or less depending on your granularity)

To me, the differences are very distinct, but depending on who I'm talking too I hear "axe kick" and I know they mean one or the other.

kinda like the nuance between "spinning/turning backward sidekick" and "back kick"


BUt in re-reading backward, I will agree with zDom that the angle of the attack/weapon is what differentiates an axe kick from...others...(especially a crescent kick )
 

kaizasosei

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of course one can do an axekick that goes straight up and straight down provided the opponents body is not blocking. one would have to start from a distance and the leap/slide in as the leg drops.. which i have seen in tkd competitions
normaly, if the opponent is close and you tried to get your leg up that high, you'd end up with a groinkick.

j
 

MasterWright

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We have had lots of people over the years come in and tell us the same thing. These people have always come away from their first competition with a new respect for our way of sparring.
 

TKDHermit

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kinda like the nuance between "spinning/turning backward sidekick" and "back kick"

GM Lim Teong Chin [general manager of singapore tkd federation, and 8th dan grandmaster, i suppose under KKW because we do KKW style sparring and he attends WTF meetings] once told me that a "back kick" is a generic term for kicks that come out from the back, just like how a 'front kick' is a generic term for a kick coming out from the front. It can be a snap, or a thrust. He identifies the difference between a back/spinning side kick and a back thrust. A spinning side kick is like a side kick with the spin [assuming facing forward, 270 degrees to kick a target infront with body facing the side], while a back thrust [which some know as the mule kick or .. whatever], in which the spin only stops at 180 degrees, with kicking leg chambered close to the supporting knee, and frmo that position thrusting straight out.
 

JadeDragon3

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This comes up pretty often.

It's a risk/reward thing.

(WTF) TKD sparring is done at a greater range than other combat sports that allow hand strikes to the head, so you have greater lead time to block kicks to the head. So hands are often left low to entice the opponent to kick to the head on the feeling that you will be able to block in time if need be but mostly to set up a counter attack.

With recent rule changes designed to increase offense, I wonder if such tactics will go away.

Anyway, some (of us) who train Tae Kwon Do primarily as a self-defense martial art train to keep hands up as a defense against more 'real-world' situations as opposed to the sport scenario.

TKD should stress more street smart fighting techniques and forget the sport aspect of the art or at least put less emphasis on the sport part then maybe TKD would get a better reputation for being a self defense art rather than a martial art designed for sport competition.
 

ellies

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I have never understood why some instructors don't emphasize to their students the difference between self defense and sports. My instructor insists we keep our hands up, regardless of sport or self defense.


You train how you fight
 

bluekey88

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Outside the ring, I'll keep that in mind. Inside the ring, WTF rules, keep your hands up all you want...I'll angle kicks under your arms all fight long.

tactics (as I think isaid earlier in this thread) are largely dependant on context. Current rules and offic iating style poitn to a lower gaurd leading to greater success than a higher gaurd. When the rules or the officating change, so will the tactics meant to maximize gains.

Outside the ring, tactics will be different...lgood fighters will adjust.

Peace,
Erik
 

terryl965

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If you get close to me you better keep your hands up.

Rabbit there is a big difference playing the game and real SD, when playing Olympic TKD one does not need there hands up. On the street one does remember some teacher teach both ways.
 

dancingalone

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I have never understood why some instructors don't emphasize to their students the difference between self defense and sports. My instructor insists we keep our hands up, regardless of sport or self defense.

You train how you fight

I'm on this side of the fence. Sure, adaptation is a key part of winning any fight, but there is also such a thing as a split second reaction, where your body will instinctively perform certain reactions under duress since you have trained it into your muscle memory through thousands of repetitions.

Fortunately we live in a world where violence is much less common for the average MT participant, but I'm afraid those of you who think one can just consciously flip a switch between sport and SD are depending too much on the good nature of your assailant. Are most violent encounters over in less than 8 seconds? Best to get used to keeping your hands up INSTINCTIVELY then.
 

bluekey88

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Fortunately we live in a world where violence is much less common for the average MT participant, but I'm afraid those of you who think one can just consciously flip a switch between sport and SD are depending too much on the good nature of your assailant.

If you can train one way, you can train both. IMO, one crucial aspect of beeing a good warrior is the ability to intelligently adapt. Bottom line, when I train WTF sparring, I have one set of tactics I use. When I train SD sparring, a different ( but related) set of tactics), grappling...a third. I work very hard to internalize all of this so as to be able to access the the right tools at the right time.

In the end, I find that when surprised outside ...my hands come up. That tells me my instincts are doing the right things at the right time for that circumstance. That's all I can hope for and tells me I'm on the right track with my training.

Peace,
Erik
 

Kwanjang

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I beleive because of the flight or fight instinct built into us all- when that second switch flips to the on (fight) position, any hard core training you have done should be of great benifit to you.

A (well) trained (disciplined) MA'st has a better since of thiming, distance, and knock out power than the average person.

Naturally, if you run into a person who gets in a fight every weekend and wins- Thats a whole different set of variables.

As far as where to keep your hands-I would think a seasoned MA'st would instinctively know where to keep them, as real self defense is very fast and very fluid.
 
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AMP-RYU

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I personally train with my hands down, because I use more of ying yang motion(circular motion of my arms) to block my opponants attack. Basically countering your opponants opposites to lure them into a motion or attack you can defend easily. I personally only suggest this type of defense to "trained" martial artist as it takes alot longer to perfect than just keeping your hands up. I teach fighting with your hands up, as I would suggest anyone teach, unless primarily used for "game" sparring. Just the way I like to train, not necessarily the "way" for everyone.:asian:
 

Hollywood1340

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Those who fight with their hands down, as seen in the following video are among the best in the world. The entire world as determined by the Olympic process. Is it pretty? Would it work in the street? Those are not questions that are going be answered in this arena. But they are the best in the world, there is no denying that. I find it interesting that very few it seems can recognize for what arena certain skills are being used for. The same people that would not fault a boxer for not kicking. Of course Olympic Boxing is nothing to crow about if the last games were any indication. But that's another can of worms.
 
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