Practical Application of the Double-Knife-Hand Block

[skribs]

I am specifically referring to the double-knife-hand block that typically shows up in Taekwondo forms, such as Palgwe Il Jang or Taegeuk Sa Jang. Where the blocking hand is a knife-hand block with the palm out, and the other hand is held around your solar plexus, palm up.

I want to start looking at a lot of the motions in the poomsae, and this is where I want to start. In particular, I am looking for the best-fitting practical application of why you would train this technique. The rules I am trying to follow when I look at techniques are:

1. The application must match the motion in the form. Otherwise, the motion in the form should be different to match the application.
2. Unless I have good reason to believe otherwise, I am going to believe that the name of the technique is accurate. For example, this is the double-knife-hand block, which I take to mean it is NOT a strike and it is NOT a grappling application, but is in fact a blocking technique.
3. I am going to try to keep each thread specific to a technique.

My question is this - what is the purpose of covering your solar plexus with the other hand in the manner depicted in the double knife-hand block? Here is why I ask:

• Typically if a hand isn't busy, it's either protecting our chin, or tight at our side.
  
• We typically don't block with our hand right next to our body, as we don't want the force of a blow to go through our hand into our body
  
• Similar to the previous point, I don't want to pull a punch into me, which is what would happen if the off-hand is used as a block.
  
• We do not have any techniques that chamber at our solar plexus, for the other hand to be used in the next technique. Even in forms, we move our hand from the solar plexus to chamber the next motion.
  
• In hapkido, our guard is similar to this position, but our other hand is held a little in front of our body instead of tight to our solar plexus, and it is held palm-down
• Similar to above, if this is a guard position, it's not typically used as a guard position in any other context, outside of the forms. We don't use it in our defense drills and we don't use it in our sparring

Now, it does look good in forms, and there are a few forms where it kind of works with the next move, where it makes it quicker to chamber the next motion. It also makes a nice pose for photographs. But I'm struggling to find a good reason for the hand placement of the off-hand in this block.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As with other things you've said, this mostly shows that you're still stuck in the 'techniques' stage, and haven't progressed to the principles yet.
This movement is a block. It's also a strike. It's also a grapple. It's also a release.

 

[skribs]

As with other things you've said, this mostly shows that you're still stuck in the 'techniques' stage, and haven't progressed to the principles yet.
This movement is a block. It's also a strike. It's also a grapple. It's also a release.

Maybe instead of making a long post describing my thought process, I should have asked my question. What is the purpose of doing a double-knife-hand block instead of a single knife-hand block?

Put another way: what is the purpose of putting your other hand next to your solar plexus instead of putting your other hand tight at your side?

---

I specifically said in my post that I understand there are different applications, but I specifically want to focus on the application of it as a block. Knowing abstractly that a motion can be used for a number of different things doesn't help me if I don't know how to actually apply the motion in any of those ways. I figure a good place to start is where the technique is named.

(edit)

Barring that, I have some follow-up questions to expand on it:

1. Why would you put your hand against your solar plexus in a grappling situation?
2. Why would you put your hand against your solar plexus in an escape situation?
   
3. Why would you put your hand against your solar plexus in a striking situation?

Since you say the motion can apply in multiple scenarios, how does it apply?

 

[Dirty Dog]

As I have said before, you need to get beyond the idea that movements in forms are exact representations of applications. They're not. They're ONE example of a stylized version of the movement. That's all.
In actual use, the movement will be modified to fit the circumstances and the need.
The lead hand may be blocking, striking, grabbing or twisting. The rear hand may also be doing any of those things.
And they don't need to both be doing the same thing. One can be blocking while the other is striking, for example.

 

[MI_martialist]

Let's look at this...what is "double knife hand block"? Is it the motion or is it the posture? I also agree that if one looks at techniques, there can be no depth of understanding.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Something to ad to your process. Each "Move" has 3 parts. 1. How it starts (Some times referred to as the Chamber). 2. Where it finishes, and 3 How it travels (Straight line, arc, across body, fro in close to further away) not just how it moves from the star to the finish but also how it moves to the "Start"
Now lets consider why open hand vs. closed. I am not a KK TKD person, but General Choi mentions for some of the open hand variations that the a grabbing motion follows, so from that and one's own intuitive process we can see how the open hand can facilitate a grab as "Part of" a block, or as a goal in itself.
Now also consider how the motion to the chamber might also be used.

 

[wab25]

Unless I have good reason to believe otherwise, I am going to believe that the name of the technique is accurate. For example, this is the double-knife-hand block, which I take to mean it is NOT a strike and it is NOT a grappling application, but is in fact a blocking technique.

The name of the technique is accurate, for two reasons. The first is, that it is a teaching tool. You can tell a beginner to wave your hand like this, with power, because it is a block. As they improve their block, adding in speed and power, it causes their body operate in a new way. They are learning to generate power, maintain balance, coordinate different sets of muscles, use their core, use their weight, use their hips...

In order to understand what you are doing, you have to get past the hand wave. Once you get to a level where you can generate power and speed in your hand wave, now its time to figure out what you are doing. What is your body doing to produce the speed, power and control? At this point, what the hand is doing is irrelevant. What is important is that you have learned how to use your body to create a specific kind of power, speed and control. Yes, to apply this power, your hand must be in a specific place... but that depends on what you are applying. Once you can use your body to do these things, you can simply alter your hand as the situation dictates.

The second reason the name is accurate, is that one of the things this technique is, is a block. (actually, a few blocks, some of them even using the outstretched hand to block with...) But its also a lot of other things.

Earl Weiss has some great thoughts. I will reiterate what he said. A technique is the sum of all the parts, beginning, middle and end. It is not just the end pose. The end pose is just that, the end of the technique.

If you want to explore these techniques, first identify the whole technique, start, middle and end. Try out the named application... try it as a block... against a lot of different punches and kicks. Then change your distance, get closer, get real close, get far away. Free your mind from have to make contact with a specific point on your hand. Instead, do the technique, with power, as if the other guy attacking were not there. The idea is that by changing distance, you will be using other parts of your body. See how they effect your partner. Then change your angle to your partner. Then have him grab you in different ways. Each time, doing the technique as you would teach a beginner. Now, to make these things you find effective, you may have to alter your hands or arms slightly... thats good. Try grabbing the other guy at different points, while doing the technique.

The technique you asked about, I can see as a throw, a choke, in the other thread I told you how that was the set up for an armbar, its a block, its a strike, its an elbow, its a counter to a throw....

Look at what doing that block, causes your body to do. Then look at how those body mechanics can be applied.

 

[skribs]

As I have said before, you need to get beyond the idea that movements in forms are exact representations of applications. They're not. They're ONE example of a stylized version of the movement. That's all.
In actual use, the movement will be modified to fit the circumstances and the need.
The lead hand may be blocking, striking, grabbing or twisting. The rear hand may also be doing any of those things.
And they don't need to both be doing the same thing. One can be blocking while the other is striking, for example.

Let's look at this...what is "double knife hand block"? Is it the motion or is it the posture? I also agree that if one looks at techniques, there can be no depth of understanding.

The name of the technique is accurate, for two reasons. The first is, that it is a teaching tool. You can tell a beginner to wave your hand like this, with power, because it is a block. As they improve their block, adding in speed and power, it causes their body operate in a new way. They are learning to generate power, maintain balance, coordinate different sets of muscles, use their core, use their weight, use their hips...

In order to understand what you are doing, you have to get past the hand wave. Once you get to a level where you can generate power and speed in your hand wave, now its time to figure out what you are doing. What is your body doing to produce the speed, power and control? At this point, what the hand is doing is irrelevant. What is important is that you have learned how to use your body to create a specific kind of power, speed and control. Yes, to apply this power, your hand must be in a specific place... but that depends on what you are applying. Once you can use your body to do these things, you can simply alter your hand as the situation dictates.

The second reason the name is accurate, is that one of the things this technique is, is a block. (actually, a few blocks, some of them even using the outstretched hand to block with...) But its also a lot of other things.

Earl Weiss has some great thoughts. I will reiterate what he said. A technique is the sum of all the parts, beginning, middle and end. It is not just the end pose. The end pose is just that, the end of the technique.

...

The technique you asked about, I can see as a throw, a choke, in the other thread I told you how that was the set up for an armbar, its a block, its a strike, its an elbow, its a counter to a throw....

Look at what doing that block, causes your body to do. Then look at how those body mechanics can be applied.

I am asking a specific question about a specific detail of the technique, and you guys are going all meta on me.

If you want to explore these techniques, first identify the whole technique, start, middle and end. Try out the named application... try it as a block... against a lot of different punches and kicks. Then change your distance, get closer, get real close, get far away. Free your mind from have to make contact with a specific point on your hand. Instead, do the technique, with power, as if the other guy attacking were not there. The idea is that by changing distance, you will be using other parts of your body. See how they effect your partner. Then change your angle to your partner. Then have him grab you in different ways. Each time, doing the technique as you would teach a beginner. Now, to make these things you find effective, you may have to alter your hands or arms slightly... thats good. Try grabbing the other guy at different points, while doing the technique.

Something to ad to your process. Each "Move" has 3 parts. 1. How it starts (Some times referred to as the Chamber). 2. Where it finishes, and 3 How it travels (Straight line, arc, across body, fro in close to further away) not just how it moves from the star to the finish but also how it moves to the "Start"
Now lets consider why open hand vs. closed. I am not a KK TKD person, but General Choi mentions for some of the open hand variations that the a grabbing motion follows, so from that and one's own intuitive process we can see how the open hand can facilitate a grab as "Part of" a block, or as a goal in itself.
Now also consider how the motion to the chamber might also be used.

I understand that all techniques have a chamber, a motion, and a finishing posture. In fact, that's why I consider the knife-hand block and knife-hand strike to be two completely different techniques, because just about everything is different between them - as I've discussed in the other thread. Everything from the direction of power from my legs and core, the chamber, the motion of my arm, and the finishing position of my arm are all different. All 3 phases of the technique are different. This is stuff I already know.

If you think that the motion is the same for the strike and the block, then either you're doing one of them incorrectly, or you're purposefully ignoring the differences between them for the sake of professing some meta-knowledge.

---

To both sections of quotes: I am asking a specific question regarding the technique: why do you have your other hand in the position it is for this technique?

Whether it is a block, strike, or throw is irrelevant to the question. That it is the last phase of the technique is already included in the question.

I was merely expressing my thought process in the original post, that I want to look at specific details, because without understanding specific details, you can't really understand the technique or the application. For example, in a knife-hand block, should my fingers be loose and my wrist limp? Or should I have a strong blade for my knife-hand? These are specific details of the technique, and they are important details whether you're just beginning or advanced. I'm looking at details I don't fully understand and trying to understand them.

And instead of helping me work on these details, you guys are going all meta on me.

 

[Danny T]

First it isn't a block. It is a movement. What is important is what can be performed within the movements.
Here are just a few.
What is happening just prior to that movement into the double knife hand position?
Parry, Thrust, Attack.
Parry, grab & pull while attacking.
Countering a lapel grab, You grab the sleeve, pull, and attack.

 

[skribs]

What is happening just prior to that movement into the double knife hand position?
Parry, Thrust, Attack.
Parry, grab & pull while attacking.
Countering a lapel grab, You grab the sleeve, pull, and attack.

I don't know which hand is doing what, and that's making it hard to visualize what you're talking about.

 

[skribs]

Can everyone please forget about the blocking hand? I'm specifically trying to ask about the OTHER hand. As to why it goes to your solarplexus instead of a typical guard position (i.e. in front of you instead of next to you) or a typical chamber position) i.e. held at your hip or at your neck to prepare for the next technique).

 

[DaveB]

I am specifically referring to the double-knife-hand block that typically shows up in Taekwondo forms, such as Palgwe Il Jang or Taegeuk Sa Jang. Where the blocking hand is a knife-hand block with the palm out, and the other hand is held around your solar plexus, palm up.

I want to start looking at a lot of the motions in the poomsae, and this is where I want to start. In particular, I am looking for the best-fitting practical application of why you would train this technique. The rules I am trying to follow when I look at techniques are:

1. The application must match the motion in the form. Otherwise, the motion in the form should be different to match the application.
2. Unless I have good reason to believe otherwise, I am going to believe that the name of the technique is accurate. For example, this is the double-knife-hand block, which I take to mean it is NOT a strike and it is NOT a grappling application, but is in fact a blocking technique.
3. I am going to try to keep each thread specific to a technique.

My question is this - what is the purpose of covering your solar plexus with the other hand in the manner depicted in the double knife-hand block? Here is why I ask:

• Typically if a hand isn't busy, it's either protecting our chin, or tight at our side.
  
• We typically don't block with our hand right next to our body, as we don't want the force of a blow to go through our hand into our body
  
• Similar to the previous point, I don't want to pull a punch into me, which is what would happen if the off-hand is used as a block.
  
• We do not have any techniques that chamber at our solar plexus, for the other hand to be used in the next technique. Even in forms, we move our hand from the solar plexus to chamber the next motion.
  
• In hapkido, our guard is similar to this position, but our other hand is held a little in front of our body instead of tight to our solar plexus, and it is held palm-down
• Similar to above, if this is a guard position, it's not typically used as a guard position in any other context, outside of the forms. We don't use it in our defense drills and we don't use it in our sparring

Now, it does look good in forms, and there are a few forms where it kind of works with the next move, where it makes it quicker to chamber the next motion. It also makes a nice pose for photographs. But I'm struggling to find a good reason for the hand placement of the off-hand in this block.

First, try and avoid Taekwondo techniques. They were created to be different to karate despite being based on karate. Their applications come from a time when application wasn't studied.

To your specific question, it's not doing anything except covering the solar plexus.
It can be a pull as well but I'll get to that.

First thing to note is if you are studying a form, the stance is as much an element of the technique as the hand movements.

Basically what you are looking at with the knife hand in back stance is a close quarter fighting stance akin to the classic wing chun fighting pose.

Your rear hand is central so it can get low as quickly as it gets high, but is there on the premise that the lead hand will take care of defence.

If it protects the chin then it sacrifices the stomach, which was as frequent a target in old southern Kung-fu as the face. If you try to protect your stomach by covering with your elbows like a boxer, the inevitable hunching you need to do compromises your structure and balance which invites a kick (which boxers don't have to worry about).

So instead you stay upright with your weight back to create space and your hands open to enable formation of whatever hand shape best exploits the small openings and maximises impact.

As for the pull, its more of a short yank to clear a path and then you release it so you can strike through the gap.

 

[skribs]

First, try and avoid Taekwondo techniques. They were created to be different to karate despite being based on karate. Their applications come from a time when application wasn't studied.

To your specific question, it's not doing anything except covering the solar plexus.
It can be a pull as well but I'll get to that.

First thing to note is if you are studying a form, the stance is as much an element of the technique as the hand movements.

Basically what you are looking at with the knife hand in back stance is a close quarter fighting stance akin to the classic wing chun fighting pose.

Your rear hand is central so it can get low as quickly as it gets high, but is there on the premise that the lead hand will take care of defence.

If it protects the chin then it sacrifices the stomach, which was as frequent a target in old southern Kung-fu as the face. If you try to protect your stomach by covering with your elbows like a boxer, the inevitable hunching you need to do compromises your structure and balance which invites a kick (which boxers don't have to worry about).

So instead you stay upright with your weight back to create space and your hands open to enable formation of whatever hand shape best exploits the small openings and maximises impact.

I appreciate the response. As a follow-up - is there a reason the hand is held tight against your solar plexus instead of out from your body a small amount? Both the wing chun and hapkido guards put the other hand by your elbow instead of tight against your body.

And is there a reason why the hand is oriented palm-up instead if inward (like wing chun) or down (like hapkido)?

 

[DaveB]

I appreciate the response. As a follow-up - is there a reason the hand is held tight against your solar plexus instead of out from your body a small amount?

Fussy teachers.

 

[DaveB]

...

And is there a reason why the hand is oriented palm-up instead if inward (like wing chun) or down (like hapkido)?

Strike rotation going out, limb rotation going back.

Just a side note: there are a lot of details to be understood to translate this kind of stuff to real life.

Things like stance length, the fact that unlike wing chun you're not meant to do a whole fight like that, use of pivoting and the effect of the guard on distancing etc.

Find the Shotokan kata Hiean Nidan if you want a good study guide for this aspect of karate/TKD.

 

[Danny T]

I don't know which hand is doing what, and that's making it hard to visualize what you're talking about.

Here is a video describing some potentials as above.

 

[skribs]

Fussy teachers.

That's what it looks like in every kata video I've seen and every manual I've seen. Which suggests it's innate to the art and not "fussy teachers".

 

[skribs]

Here is a video describing some potentials as above.

I've seen that video before and I completely disagree with many of his points, to include:

• "There is no such thing as a chambering motion" - I find this to be absolute rubbish, as my understanding is EVERY technique has a chamber. He also shows several chambering motions in the rest of the video
• At 0:45 he shows a strike which has very little power as it's twisting across your body
• At 1:15 he shows the motion of the off-hand as going from the rear forwards, and then his application of that motion goes from the front backwards (which means the application is of a different motion)
• At 2:15 he makes the claim that no technique ends in a block, which is just absurd to me. It's possible you may need to block multiple attacks in a row. It's possible after blocking an attack your opponent moves out of range. It might be something that is a bit of a school mantra (i.e. always strike after a block) or something like that, but it comes across as a universal claim that doesn't ring true to me.
• At 2:30 he shows that the punch will go right through the block, which means he's doing the block wrong. He also does straight-on blocks later in the video.
• At 2:55 he does the exact opposite motion, but ends in the same spot, and calls it an application of the motion. Which is like using an inward hook punch to explain the motion of an outward block. The technique he's trying to explain has a clockwise motion, he moves counter-clockwise and ends in a similar position, and thus calls it an application of the technique.

This guy contradicts himself plenty of times in the video, makes tons of generalizations that aren't true or aren't well explained in the video, and he will show Movement 1, and then in explaining why you practice that movement, he'll do something completely different.

 

[DaveB]

That's what it looks like in every kata video I've seen and every manual I've seen. Which suggests it's innate to the art and not "fussy teachers".

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are asking about keeping a hand pressed to your solar plexus as opposed to letting it float an inch or two away.

That is just aesthetics. There's no functional difference between the two. The principle being demonstrated is the same. Details are important but not every detail. Over focusing on minutiae diminishes you.

As the other poster's pointed out techniques are just a top layer to understanding forms.

 

[wab25]

"There is no such thing as a chambering motion" - I find this to be absolute rubbish, as my understanding is EVERY technique has a chamber. He also shows several chambering motions in the rest of the video

Ok, lets be fair... he never said what you quoted in the video shown. (I watched it 3 times, listening for that phrase... if I missed it, please give the time when he says it) What he did say was that the chambering motion was the block. So of course he will continue to show the chambering motion, thats the blocking part of the technique, for the purpose of his discussion.

I've seen that video before and I completely disagree with many of his points

Well, what are you expecting us to do for you?

Apparently, you were taught:

• A chamber is only a chamber, and is only used to load a strike. - It cannot be anything else.
• A knife hand block is a block, to a specific target on the forearm, with a specific shape of your hand, impacting with 2 inch blade of your hand. - Therefore it can be nothing else, if it hits a bicep or neck, you are doing it wrong.
• Your other hand in this art is a second knife hand block. - Therefore, it must be a block, where your 2 inch blade on your hand, is impacting that same specific target on the forearm of the attacker.

So, at this point, I am not sure how to answer your question.

My question is this - what is the purpose of covering your solar plexus with the other hand in the manner depicted in the double knife-hand block?

The answer is: it is a block, with your knife hand, that covers the solar plexus. It must be that, since you disagree with any interpretation that does not involve a knife hand block, blocking with the knife edge of the hand, to the attackers forearm. Since that is the only answer you will accept, why ask the question, when you know the answer?

Alright, I admit, I am just some lazy keyboard martial artist, meta pontificating about stuff that I apparently know nothing about, so that I will look good... And while you have a way better understanding of martial arts than I do... there are people on this site, this thread even, who have forgotten more about martial arts than you and I combined will ever learn to begin with. I try to take their advice and suggestions. But, thats me.