Hands Up; Hands Down.

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
I originally said most of this in another Thread, and figured it might make for an interesting Topic.
Bare with me.

To begin with, why would anyone not have their Guard Up?

Its worth remembering why its done in WTF Bouts - To A: Appear unpredictable; B: As a display of strength, similar to how many forms of Karate will not block punches to demonstrate the strength of their body. C: Its a Sporting Bout, and largely due to how it functions, a proper stance is impractical.

There is one benefit to it though; And its why ill even sometimes use it in ITF Bouts - If your hands are up, Punching from the Hip is not easy due to the time it takes to Chamber. With one hand around your Hip, and the other around your Thigh (Which still isnt limp hands, come to think of it. But before learning the Stance, i sure as h*** mistook it for one), your Punching Hand is already Chambered, and able to Punch through, whilst the other hand generates Reverse Power.

You do lose alot of Blocking Capacity, but like i say; Due to the way WTF Bouts function, it is the most Practical Stance for that. And in ITF Bouts, you dont stick around in it any longer than you really need to be able to Aggressively Counter Attack with a Punch.

So:
Obviously, start with your Org. Just to avoid any confusion. For those with Halls that arent part of Orgs, just generalise its Sparring style, since thats all we really need to know, to have context.
So the question is: Do you ever Spar with your Hands Down, are they Relaxed or in a Preset Position, and of course, Why.
And secondly, do you only apply this reasoning to Competitions, or... (For example, i recall a while ago, reading someone say that in a Street Fight, keeping ones hands at ones side makes you appear less dangerous, and decreases the likelyhood of of someone seeing, say, a Front Leg Kick come at them, since all they would see is the lack of Defense. Id kind of agree, but personally i consider that a touch risky, incase you make a mistake)
Lastly, just to add some flavor to the conversation; Do you usually Spar with your hands High, Mid, Low, Limp, or Subjective To The Situation (Of course, everyone should say Subjective; But what i mean is, when you know nothing about your opponent and just want to assume a Stance reflexively).

And some quick clarity - The idea of this thread is to permit the discussion of why one would or would not have their hands at their sides. I find it somewhat interesting, as oppose to the usual offhand comments in Threads.
 

ralphmcpherson

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
2,200
Reaction score
48
Location
australia
We spar guard up. Drop your guard and you will either a) get push ups or, b)you will be paired up with a 5th or 6th dan and you will be shown why you keep your guard up. I have no problems with them keeping them down in sport tkd because within that ruleset it is obviously the best way to go, but our emphasis is on self defence not sport, so for us keeping our guard up is better.
 

Jaeimseu

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Jun 19, 2011
Messages
923
Reaction score
271
Location
Austin, Texas, USA
Olympic taekwondo people put their hands down because it usually makes good sense to do so. A boxer keeps his hands up for the same reason. I don't think there is any such thing as a "proper" guarding stance. The situation dictates what is proper. Olympic tkd players, much like boxers, don't normally use traditional/poomsae style blocks because of the speed and variety of angles and targets that must be defended. In the Olympic style context, it's much easier to have a low guard to cover the body and move the head to avoid high attacks. In a different situation the hand position would change. I have never seen a tkd instructor tell the students, "Ok, if you get into a street fight you should put your hands next to your sides." People tend to ridicule or criticize what they don't fully understand. It's easy to dismiss something as stupid, but there is often a reason why things are done.
 

ralphmcpherson

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
2,200
Reaction score
48
Location
australia
Olympic taekwondo people put their hands down because it usually makes good sense to do so. A boxer keeps his hands up for the same reason. I don't think there is any such thing as a "proper" guarding stance. The situation dictates what is proper. Olympic tkd players, much like boxers, don't normally use traditional/poomsae style blocks because of the speed and variety of angles and targets that must be defended. In the Olympic style context, it's much easier to have a low guard to cover the body and move the head to avoid high attacks. In a different situation the hand position would change. I have never seen a tkd instructor tell the students, "Ok, if you get into a street fight you should put your hands next to your sides." People tend to ridicule or criticize what they don't fully understand. It's easy to dismiss something as stupid, but there is often a reason why things are done.
I agree, olympic tkdists do get ridiculed for keeping their hands down, which is unfair I feel. They are working within a refined ruleset and know what works best. If they kept their guard up they wouldnt be protecting the hogu which is where the majority of points are scored. Its a game, just like boxing. I also believe people can adjust to suit their conditions, Im sure if an olympic tkdist was in a pub and got in a fight he would not dangle his arms by his sides.
 
OP
Cyriacus

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
I agree, olympic tkdists do get ridiculed for keeping their hands down, which is unfair I feel. They are working within a refined ruleset and know what works best. If they kept their guard up they wouldnt be protecting the hogu which is where the majority of points are scored. Its a game, just like boxing. I also believe people can adjust to suit their conditions, Im sure if an olympic tkdist was in a pub and got in a fight he would not dangle his arms by his sides.
Yes - In many ways, its like wearing Gloves. Sure, it protects your hands. But you cant exactly decline using them, either. And your not exactly going to get your padded gloves ready for your upcoming Barfight.
That doesnt change the fact that your hands are well Conditioned, and you are capable of using them. It just means that the Rules do not permit Bare-Knuckle Striking to a Bare Surface.

Its functionality.
 

ralphmcpherson

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
2,200
Reaction score
48
Location
australia
Yes - In many ways, its like wearing Gloves. Sure, it protects your hands. But you cant exactly decline using them, either. And your not exactly going to get your padded gloves ready for your upcoming Barfight.
That doesnt change the fact that your hands are well Conditioned, and you are capable of using them. It just means that the Rules do not permit Bare-Knuckle Striking to a Bare Surface.

Its functionality.
I think in martial arts we are trained to protect ourselves from oncoming attacks and we are taught to try and pre-empt what our opponent will do. Therefore if you are in an olympic sparring match you have to protect the hogu as that is where most attacks will be directed, thats not to say they cant adjust their defence if an attack comes from somewhere else. I dont have a problem with that. I think the karate sparring I see with no contact or light contact opens up far more problems with adjusting to real self defence than keeping your guard low.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
...

There is one benefit to it though; And its why ill even sometimes use it in ITF Bouts - If your hands are up, Punching from the Hip is not easy due to the time it takes to Chamber. With one hand around your Hip, and the other around your Thigh (Which still isnt limp hands, come to think of it. But before learning the Stance, i sure as h*** mistook it for one), your Punching Hand is already Chambered, and able to Punch through, whilst the other hand generates Reverse Power.

You do lose alot of Blocking Capacity, but like i say; Due to the way WTF Bouts function, it is the most Practical Stance for that. And in ITF Bouts, you dont stick around in it any longer than you really need to be able to Aggressively Counter Attack with a Punch.

...

Just for what it is worth, in the Hapkido I learned, our kick defense was with the rear fist at the hip, waist high and cambered, the other with the arm across the body and just in front of the other fist. I thought is was a little weird and disfunctional when I was first taught it. But it can be made to word very well for defense. Many of our techniques would of course, not work in the rules of must sparring.
 
OP
Cyriacus

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
Just for what it is worth, in the Hapkido I learned, our kick defense was with the rear fist at the hip, waist high and cambered, the other with the arm across the body and just in front of the other fist. I thought is was a little weird and disfunctional when I was first taught it. But it can be made to word very well for defense. Many of our techniques would of course, not work in the rules of must sparring.
Pretty much what i referred to in the OP, except that the Stance i learnt had the other hand slightly above the Chambered hand. More or less the same idealogy then :)
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,355
Reaction score
9,095
Location
Pueblo West, CO
The low guard is often maligned, but is not as impractical as people seem to think. I use it in several situations.

Some people cannot kick high. Some situations likewise prevent high kicks. In these situations, if you maintain your distance so as to prevent effective hand strikes to the head, why not use the low guard for its ease of blocking vs kicks to the ribs or lower?

There are times when I wish to invite an attack to the head, especially when I intend to evade rather than block. Again, this is an ideal time to use the low guard.

I would say that (outside the very limited realm of olympic-style competition) anyone who uses ANY one guard exclusively is foolishly limiting themselves.
 

ArmorOfGod

Senior Master
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,031
Reaction score
39
Location
North Augusta, SC
I will point out that tkd people fighting with their hands limp by their sides is part of the reason that tkd is not taken seriously by the general public and is why tkd is called the "kiddy martial art" by a lot of people. I do not feel that way because I know some good tkd schools but can see why people think that way.
I only take my school to open martial arts tournament where all styles compete. Their kicks are incredible, but they are shocked when someone punches them in the head and they do not adapt (and do not ever come back to that "all-style" tournament.

AoG
 
OP
Cyriacus

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
I will point out that tkd people fighting with their hands limp by their sides is part of the reason that tkd is not taken seriously by the general public and is why tkd is called the "kiddy martial art" by a lot of people. I do not feel that way because I know some good tkd schools but can see why people think that way.
I only take my school to open martial arts tournament where all styles compete. Their kicks are incredible, but they are shocked when someone punches them in the head and they do not adapt (and do not ever come back to that "all-style" tournament.

AoG
This portrays the lack of understanding for the reasons why some, and by some i mean quite a few, Dojangs teach it that way, mainly for their Sport aspect. People jump to conclusions, and draw preconceptions. Ive seen plenty of people who think a Boxer would break their hand if they punched without a glove. One of whom is on this very site, if im not mistaken.
 

StudentCarl

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
935
Reaction score
30
Location
Grand Haven, MI
It all depends on range. When I'm at kicking range, my front hand will be "lower" because that really puts it mid-section, where it can defend against kicks. My back hand is always between shoulder and jaw height, regardless of range. Once we're inside kicking range to hand contact range, both hands are up unless I'm tying up, clinching, or grappling.
 

Manny

Senior Master
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
2,563
Reaction score
127
Location
Veracruz,Mexico
My roots are in some how WTF, I don't recall back in the 80's competing ossparring with low guard, the low guard became when TKD started to use specialiced kicks (not the regular straight ones), till these days I use a semi high guard, why? pretty simple, I've been hit in the head very hard in the past, even I needed surgery that's why I protect my head/face and I use my guard to block the torso kicks no matter I get swollen forearm (I use lower arm pads these days).

I am not a sport tkdoing so I will use an up guard everitime I will need to spar or fight.

Manny
 
OP
Cyriacus

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
My roots are in some how WTF, I don't recall back in the 80's competing ossparring with low guard, the low guard became when TKD started to use specialiced kicks (not the regular straight ones), till these days I use a semi high guard, why? pretty simple, I've been hit in the head very hard in the past, even I needed surgery that's why I protect my head/face and I use my guard to block the torso kicks no matter I get swollen forearm (I use lower arm pads these days).

I am not a sport tkdoing so I will use an up guard everitime I will need to spar or fight.

Manny
Ill always find it interesting how different Dojangs decide which is their Bread and Butter.
For most, Round/Instep Kicks are the Bread and Butter.
For some, Roundhouse Kicks.
For some, Front Push Kicks.
Where I train, Instep/Round Kicks are a rarity; Front or Side Kicks serve as Bread and Butter, respectively.
And i mean, they all work for different situations.
Its just very interesting how there can be such variance.
 

ralphmcpherson

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
2,200
Reaction score
48
Location
australia
Ill always find it interesting how different Dojangs decide which is their Bread and Butter.
For most, Round/Instep Kicks are the Bread and Butter.
For some, Roundhouse Kicks.
For some, Front Push Kicks.
Where I train, Instep/Round Kicks are a rarity; Front or Side Kicks serve as Bread and Butter, respectively.
And i mean, they all work for different situations.
Its just very interesting how there can be such variance.
I would say where we train side kicks and front kicks are the bread and butter.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
10,443
Location
Maui
I think it's up to the individual. I know guys/gals that fight great with both hands up and others that fight great with both hands down. At times I fall in the middle, rear guard high, front guard straight down.
 
OP
Cyriacus

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
I think it's up to the individual. I know guys/gals that fight great with both hands up and others that fight great with both hands down. At times I fall in the middle, rear guard high, front guard straight down.
I wish i remembered the Name of that Stance - I know its quite Traditional though, and best used whilst elevated to your heels, or bouncing gently.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
Pretty much what i referred to in the OP, except that the Stance i learnt had the other hand slightly above the Chambered hand. More or less the same idealogy then :)

My apologies, I should have said that as well, but I didn't suppose anyone else used that hand configuration and my response was sloppy. But yes, we did have the cross hand above the rear hand.

As you well know, it has defense possibilities most people wouldn't see.
 

Latest Discussions

Top