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terryl965

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Why is it the USAT and the KKW feel they need to make TKD even more water down by promoting itself and selling out the complete Art side and S.D. side of TKD? What is it the compells them so much, is it greed for membership or just self destruction? Yime will tell.
 

bluekey88

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why is it the usat and the kkw feel they need to make tkd even more water down by promoting itself and selling out the complete art side and s.d. Side of tkd? What is it the compells them so much, is it greed for membership or just self destruction? Yime will tell.

$$ ??
 

seasoned

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Why is it the USAT and the KKW feel they need to make TKD even more water down by promoting itself and selling out the complete Art side and S.D. side of TKD? What is it the compells them so much, is it greed for membership or just self destruction? Yime will tell.
It sounds like the way of a lot of arts these days. It is all about the almighty buck. Old school is getter harder to find.
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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I know it money driven but why, The one thing about Martial Art was the purity of it. Well I would take up knitting but that too has a fearce competition between those knitters:jediduel:
 

BrandonLucas

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I know it money driven but why, The one thing about Martial Art was the purity of it. Well I would take up knitting but that too has a fearce competition between those knitters:jediduel:

It always comes down to $$.

Instructors want to be able to teach full time...whether they want to become wealthy or just keep the school open, the goal is still the same, which is to provide instruction of the martial arts to the public for a living.

The problem is that the public generally doesn't accept the fact that the SD applications aren't always fun, and most of the time require a great deal of hard work and dedication. People these days are out for quick results, and they don't understand that learning to protect yourself and others takes time.

So, the sport side is where these people gravitate. They've learned that they can still learn a respectable skill, but they don't have to do the same training that is required for SD applications...and most of the time, competing is fun.

So teaching at the competition level is where the $$ is.

Just my $.02...all I can afford to offer since I'm involved with the SD side of things....
 

troubleenuf

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Hmm. that dosnt make sense to me.... We teach both traditional and sport style. In my gyms only about 10% at most of the student body want to take the competition level up and join the team we have. The rest it is a struggle to get them to go to tournaments. Thus I would say the $$ is in the traditional side not the sport side.



It always comes down to $$.

Instructors want to be able to teach full time...whether they want to become wealthy or just keep the school open, the goal is still the same, which is to provide instruction of the martial arts to the public for a living.

The problem is that the public generally doesn't accept the fact that the SD applications aren't always fun, and most of the time require a great deal of hard work and dedication. People these days are out for quick results, and they don't understand that learning to protect yourself and others takes time.

So, the sport side is where these people gravitate. They've learned that they can still learn a respectable skill, but they don't have to do the same training that is required for SD applications...and most of the time, competing is fun.

So teaching at the competition level is where the $$ is.

Just my $.02...all I can afford to offer since I'm involved with the SD side of things....
 

bluekey88

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Terry,
You talk about the purity of the martial arts...while I liek to think there is a certain purity to the practice of martial arts (indeed to the intense practice of ANYTHING)...I really think that purity, that sense of spiritual depth that some of us associate with MA is ancillary, an add on...a side effect of intense study and practice.

Cynically speaking, MA is ansd has always been about money/power.

Think about it. MA developed as a means for people to hurt each other...two reason exist for the need to hurt each other. We either want something that someone else has and are willing to hurt them to get it (robbery for money, food, mates...all the way to war for land, slaves, resources, etc.) OR we have something that someone else wants and we need to fight to stop them from taking it.

it is this sad fact of human existence that gave rise to the variosu fighting systems/cultures. It was all about money or its equivalent.

As cultures developed and the need for constant fighting starts to diminish and the fighters need to find new ways to live (assuming a culture that is/was able to support a fighting class/standing army). These folks need to retrain or find some way to make aliving. Some use their skills as law enforcmeent/security other open schools...some go outside society and take up illegal pursuits. In the end their skills are still used to make money to earn a living...maybe not to get rich...but still to earn a living. Again, MA become about money.

there's no escaping it. No matter what you do, be it MA or some other pursuit...you will use your skills to make your way in the world. For some, this practice will eve3ntually transcend the need to get by and take on a deeper significance and meaning...but, in the end, that's a secondary effetc...no the prinmary result of training and practice.

What does that mean for us now? It means we all have devcisions to make about how we will practice anfd train and what our goals will be? How mauch will be for money/power/etc. how much will be for other more esoteric pursuits? That being said, there will always be some (perhaps many) who will be looking at what the practie can do for them,. not what their practice can do for others.

Peace,
Erik
 

kidswarrior

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Terry,
You talk about the purity of the martial arts...while I liek to think there is a certain purity to the practice of martial arts (indeed to the intense practice of ANYTHING)...I really think that purity, that sense of spiritual depth that some of us associate with MA is ancillary, an add on...a side effect of intense study and practice.
Both these comments got me thinking. Erik, while I agree that there's probably no ideal to *get back to*, there may be an ideal to go forward with. Not so much what someone else did in the past, but what we envision as the ideal for the future--and which must be larger than anyone's ego or greed.

Terry, your point is well taken. Maybe the term *purity* holds us up in thinking about this? I find that if I substitute the word integrity, then I'm more able to answer the question. Example: one person's purity is another's contamination. But integrity has elements that translate across individual styles and preferences (I think).

Am I full of it, or have we stumbled onto something here? ;)
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Both these comments got me thinking. Erik, while I agree that there's probably no ideal to *get back to*, there may be an ideal to go forward with. Not so much what someone else did in the past, but what we envision as the ideal for the future--and which must be larger than anyone's ego or greed.

Terry, your point is well taken. Maybe the term *purity* holds us up in thinking about this? I find that if I substitute the word integrity, then I'm more able to answer the question. Example: one person's purity is another's contamination. But integrity has elements that translate across individual styles and preferences (I think).

Am I full of it, or have we stumbled onto something here? ;)


That may have been a better word to use, Thanks
 

bluekey88

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I think about it in humanistic terms. The psychologist Abraham Maslow proposed a theory he called the hierarchy o fneeds. In essence he said that all people were trying to grow, emotionally, towards a state he called self-actualization. A place where a person knows who they are, are good with that and are comfortable with their palce in the world. It is a state few people achieve. He pu t this at the top of a pyramid-like diagram. Below that were all the things a person had to have in order to reach self-actualization. At the bottom of the pyramid are things like food/water/shelter...the absolute necessitiesd of life. Without these we can;t really worry abotu anything else. Above that we have things like Job/income and then realtionships, hobbies, purpose...and so forth. If you don;t have you rneeds met on a lwoer tier of th epyramid you cannot successfully achieve goals at higher levels.

I think MA development is the same way. We all come to MA for different reasons. Different MA systems devloped in different cultures, for differenrt, yet overlapping reasopns. However, those that survive, like people must grow and change. Some developed towards sport and sportive concepts/ideals...others took on more spritual aspects (aiki-jujitsu to aikido for example).

I guess I'm saying that I think it is a mechanism like this that brings out the esoteric deeper aspects of MA training and MA developemtn as a whole. It is the path that kidswarrior pointed out that we are working towards.

Peace,
Erik
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Why is it the USAT and the KKW feel they need to make TKD even more water down by promoting itself and selling out the complete Art side and S.D. side of TKD? What is it the compells them so much, is it greed for membership or just self destruction? Yime will tell.
I'll answer with an answer to USAT and a question regarding KKW.

USAT: sports regulatory body, like NFL or MLB or WBC (world boxing commission??). They regulate the sport of taekwondo, nothing more. Since they're connected to the WTF, which does essentially the same thing, USAT has no SD or art to water down, as you say.

Actually, watering down means adding something that has no real substance to it to make something that does go further, such as wine or soup. A better word with regards to USAT might be truncate.

KKW: Question: is this a removal or diminishing of SD and art from their curriculum? I don't have the KKW text book (on my to-buy list, but it's like 90 bucks, so it will have to wait a few weeks). Or do you mean that the art and SD are not taught in most schools?

Daniel
 

Flying Crane

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Why is it the USAT and the KKW feel they need to make TKD even more water down by promoting itself and selling out the complete Art side and S.D. side of TKD? What is it the compells them so much, is it greed for membership or just self destruction? Yime will tell.

Do you need to belong to these orgs? If you don't like their methods or what they stand for, why not go independent? If you feel you have something better to offer than what membership in these orgs will allow or dictate, then be done with them.

Time to stand on your own two feet, folks. When you get attacked on the street and need to defend yourself, you cannot look to your instructor for help. You need to step up and take care of yourself. Same thing in running a school. If the org can't give you what you feel is required, then go your own way.

If enough people believe in themselves enough to split away, then either the orgs will get the message and will make the needed changes, or else they will go extinct. Maybe that's what's needed.
 

mozzandherb

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In less modern times when some martial arts originated it wasn't about money, it was about wisdom, intelligence and self-control. It was about learning an art, just like music or painting. But of course we live in a capitalist society where money rules, so yes MA has deviated away from the traditional norms back in the day, but I would say that even though there are schools and/or instructors that are simply there to make a $$, there are others who are there to really teach the art, while perhaps making some money on the side.
If you think about it, I would say that most instructors start teaching not in hopes of making money, but in hopes of teaching the art and somewhere along the way, if they are good at what they do the money will come
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Do you need to belong to these orgs? If you don't like their methods or what they stand for, why not go independent? If you feel you have something better to offer than what membership in these orgs will allow or dictate, then be done with them.

Time to stand on your own two feet, folks. When you get attacked on the street and need to defend yourself, you cannot look to your instructor for help. You need to step up and take care of yourself. Same thing in running a school. If the org can't give you what you feel is required, then go your own way.

If enough people believe in themselves enough to split away, then either the orgs will get the message and will make the needed changes, or else they will go extinct. Maybe that's what's needed.


Do I need to belong no but for my son to make the Olympics he has to belong to USAT, so in essence I also need to belong. I am his instructor, coach and mentor. It is a catch 22.
 

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Do I need to belong no but for my son to make the Olympics he has to belong to USAT, so in essence I also need to belong. I am his instructor, coach and mentor. It is a catch 22.

well OK, if your son's chances at the olympics are part of the picture, then I guess you gotta play by their rules.

Could you sort of "play along" on the surface, but ramp up what you teach and do it more "oldschool" like? Maybe do the whole Olympic bit for those who want to go that route, but for the others, get down and dirty and train for self defense and to fight.
 
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terryl965

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well OK, if your son's chances at the olympics are part of the picture, then I guess you gotta play by their rules.

Could you sort of "play along" on the surface, but ramp up what you teach and do it more "oldschool" like? Maybe do the whole Olympic bit for those who want to go that route, but for the others, get down and dirty and train for self defense and to fight.

That is what we do, I personally believe some of there rule are just stupid and goes against everything that a real Martial Art has to offer. basically I was just venting and seeing who else felt this way. Thanks Flying Crane you are always spot on.
 

Flying Crane

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That is what we do, I personally believe some of there rule are just stupid and goes against everything that a real Martial Art has to offer. basically I was just venting and seeing who else felt this way. Thanks Flying Crane you are always spot on.


Ah, I understand.

If I had a dollar for ever bit of stupidity that I had to put up with on a daily basis, I'd be a rich man
icon12.gif
.

I guess if we want ceratain things that others have control over, we sometimes have to put up with their nonsense, and even sacrifice our values and standards a bit if it's worth it to us. That's the decision that I guess ya just gotta make.

Maybe once your son has his shot at the olympics, once it's all over, you can make the separation for good. Look at it as a temporary inconvenience.
 

ATC

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I'll answer with an answer to USAT and a question regarding KKW.

USAT: sports regulatory body, like NFL or MLB or WBC (world boxing commission??). They regulate the sport of taekwondo, nothing more. Since they're connected to the WTF, which does essentially the same thing, USAT has no SD or art to water down, as you say.

Actually, watering down means adding something that has no real substance to it to make something that does go further, such as wine or soup. A better word with regards to USAT might be truncate.

KKW: Question: is this a removal or diminishing of SD and art from their curriculum? I don't have the KKW text book (on my to-buy list, but it's like 90 bucks, so it will have to wait a few weeks). Or do you mean that the art and SD are not taught in most schools?

Daniel
Best answer by far.

USAT has nothing to do with the teaching of TKD. It is a sport regulating body and only governs the rules of the sport. KKW or Kukkiwon is the headquarters for the WTF which is the Top governing body for the sport of TKD as it pertains to the Olympics or Olympic style competitions.

You only have to join or register as a USAT member if you want to compete in an event that they sponsor or produce. By default if you register as a USAT member you automaticlly fall under the WTF umbrella.

Kukkiwon is the only taekwondo organization whose dan ranks are recognized by World Taekwondo Federation.

Kukkiwon certifies your DAN.

WTF governs the competition aspects of Taekwondo as the International Federation of Taekwondo of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The WTF does not issue dan ranks or black belt certifications.

Kukkiwon and the WTF are separate organizations, although the two are often confused with each other. As a result, the term "WTF" is sometimes used to refer to as the Kukkiwon-style taekwondo

The art of TKD is soley up to you and your master. My master always says. Just take care of your Dojang and students and the rest will take care of its self.
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Ah, I understand.

If I had a dollar for ever bit of stupidity that I had to put up with on a daily basis, I'd be a rich man
icon12.gif
.

I guess if we want ceratain things that others have control over, we sometimes have to put up with their nonsense, and even sacrifice our values and standards a bit if it's worth it to us. That's the decision that I guess ya just gotta make.

Maybe once your son has his shot at the olympics, once it's all over, you can make the separation for good. Look at it as a temporary inconvenience.


FC I would be right there with you about being a rich man.
 
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