What Do The Tenets of Taekwondo Have to Do With Hate?

[Gorilla]

One thing is for certain "Hate" destroys those who fall prey to its seduction!!! Hates surely is a fraud!!! Hate has fueled the Nazis and the KKK and many more. Those who practice in the end destroy themselves!!! It is a fitting end!!!!

Those who hate are easily defeated by those with intelligence!!!! History has proven this to be true time and again!!!

 

[Twin Fist]

sorry, this statement is .................. really not smart

So, by your phrase here it is good to be racist since they pretty much feed on hate. Hate motivates them and feeds them.

hate for a GOOD reason, not a stupid one.

hating someone JUST for the color of thier skin? thats stupid

I hate criminals. HATE them, thats a good hate.

 

[chungdokwan123]

"I never mentioned rudeness on anyone's part."

It sure seems like that was the direction you were moving in with your remark.

That's your failure of discernment.

""Fortune cookie sayings"? Is that the extent of what you receive in training? Or is that what you relegate the basic tenets of TKD to?"

Most schools spend perhaps a hour per practice session, yes? Seems an awfully short time to pack in ma instruction AND moral building too. In that context, 'fortune cookie' probably isn't too far from the truth.

It can be built in to the instruction.

"I didn't."

You did. You wrote a whole paragraph about the US Constitution and the Founders.

I didn't. Read again. I said that COULD be used a a parallel. I offered it as a direction in which NOT to go.

"I made no comparison between them in the context of sports. But is there even the same availability of guiding principles within other athletic activities as there tends to be as in martial arts? "

There may be. It's still apples and oranges since you're talking about professional endeavors where the goal is to win a sporting contest.

So if there is......where does that place tournament fighting? I do believe the participants are there to win a sporting contest as well.

"I'm not talking about singing Barney songs in a day care setting, but more to the point......I didn't realize that TKD in general was no long an effective fighting system in the first place. Is that your position? "

I think it's obvious that TKD is not an effective fighting system for many, particular if they attend one of those schools that are more about building character and rewarding good sportsmanship than about effective self-defense.

The two are not mutually exclusive. They can co-exist.

"You don't support the notion of homogeneity, yet you desire a "universal return" of TKD to an effective fighting system. You have quite a conundrum there."

It's actually not an inconsistent statement. TKD is foremost a fighting system. If you don't train to defend yourself (dare I say it?) or FIGHT, then you're not doing taekwondo at all. You're dancing in a gi. It's the various curricula across schools that I support diversity in.

I'd agree with that......yet, I don't understand why you constantly refer to some conjured lack of self defense training. It would be obvious that a lack thereof would render an art ineffective. That is merely stating the obvious.

 

[chungdokwan123]

No, what is out is people thinking they are better than the rest of us simply because they do a martial art with catchphrases.

Then apply your concerns in that regard to those who are deserving of them. I am not a part of that mindset.

Would my honest opinion of MMA help here? I respect it greatly.....but it doesn't appeal to me. Yet that doesn't mean that I consider any art form superior to another. There are good components to all.

 

[chungdokwan123]

I am confused on this question. Tenets of Taekwondo are taught regardless if the school is "traditional" oriented or "sport" oriented. So why would you think that those who persue sport aspect would not be grounded in the heavy character building?

That's not my position. I asked a rhetorical question. Yet, would you deny that there are some schools that do not really focus on the character question?

If anything I would thing they would be more grounded in character building because they tend to face an aspect in training that many "traditional" schools are scared to teach, which is failure.

That's quite a generalization......on a point that I'm certainly not familiar with.

In sports you don't always win and from your loses you figure out what type of person you are. In the tradtional setting it seems everyone is a winner regardless if they deserve to be or not.

Another generalization......and again I'm not familiar with that sentiment. One becomes a winner by default through training and mastering techniques and improving one's self by application of our tenets. One becomes a winner if one applies his self-defense training successfully. One becomes a winner in those instances in which he competes in tournament sparring.....whether he takes the gold or not......because the experience gained is irreplaceable. There are many ways in which to win.

 

[Tez3]

Chungdokwan, your English is idiosyncratic to say the least, makes it harder to understand.

I don't think hate is necessarily bad, a hatred of poverty could lead a person to do great good. A hatred of tyranny can bring it down. There are many more examples.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've always like supreme indifference myself.

Then would dislike intensely be OK

Oh and just for the sake of clarification, not to Tez but to the thread

hate
–verb
1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
2. to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.
3. to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility.
–noun
4. intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility.
5. the object of extreme aversion or hostility.


Would it be OK to dislike or hate doing a form improperly?

 

[chungdokwan123]

Chungdokwan, your English is idiosyncratic to say the least, makes it harder to understand.

I don't think hate is necessarily bad, a hatred of poverty could lead a person to do great good. A hatred of tyranny can bring it down. There are many more examples.

I could attempt to be a bit more colloquial......yet I fear I would just end up right back at the point from which I began.

My writing style, indeed much of my speech is heavily influenced by writings from the 1700s. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Joseph Story, John Locke, and Montesquieu are among the many from that era who inspire me in my study of Constitutional law, and given that said endeavor has been a lifelong passion, I would assume that much of the flowery and somewhat poetic vocabulary of that time has crept into my own communications. My apologies.

I stand at the brink of digression concerning the topic at hand. I find myself in what appears to be a singular minority regarding my thoughts on the importance of our tenets.

I do realize that much of the use of the word "hate" is nothing other than simple semantics. I would not attempt to suggest that I myself am not guilty of it, but that in addition to religious beliefs, I have these simple tenets to expunge it as well as to attempt to prevent its emanation. I simply feel that they are an important component of my TKD and they can strengthen the character of others.......which I see as a dire need given the state of society today.

Perhaps I am simply the oddball here?

 

[Cirdan]

chungdokwan, how do you build moral building into the instruction? I would expect a good MA club to be a place where the members respect each other, but what more than this can you do? Reciting some text for a few minutes won`t change anything, people will still be who they chose to be for better or worse.

 

[Tez3]

I could attempt to be a bit more colloquial......yet I fear I would just end up right back at the point from which I began.

My writing style, indeed much of my speech is heavily influenced by writings from the 1700s. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Joseph Story, John Locke, and Montesquieu are among the many from that era who inspire me in my study of Constitutional law, and given that said endeavor has been a lifelong passion, I would assume that much of the flowery and somewhat poetic vocabulary of that time has crept into my own communications. My apologies.

I stand at the brink of digression concerning the topic at hand. I find myself in what appears to be a singular minority regarding my thoughts on the importance of our tenets.

I do realize that much of the use of the word "hate" is nothing other than simple semantics. I would not attempt to suggest that I myself am not guilty of it, but that in addition to religious beliefs, I have these simple tenets to expunge it as well as to attempt to prevent its emanation. I simply feel that they are an important component of my TKD and they can strengthen the character of others.......which I see as a dire need given the state of society today.

Perhaps I am simply the oddball here?

When I was studying at university, an ancient place of learning whch was founded in February 1495 giving it plenty of time to consider the subject of writing, I was taught that one should write clearly and concisely, with passion if one wished but always with clarity.
I'm afraid you may think you are writing poetically and even 'flowery' but sadly you are not. You are making a very common mistake of using 'big words' to explain something that should be writen plainly and therefore without ambiguity. Your writing far from being pleasant is conceited and open to misunderstandings. Some sentences make no sense whatsoever I'm afraid.

You may be copying 18th century writers but they were only writing as was common then complete with, to them, slang words and phrases in the style of the times. If they were writing today they would write as we do. If you did we'd understand you.

"I stand at the brink of digression concerning the topic at hand. I find myself in what appears to be a singular minority regarding my thoughts on the importance of our tenets"

I'm sorry, this sentence is nonsense and shows great conceit on your part, a competent wordsmith will phrase it using good English and grammar so that it doesn't end up sounding as if from a character in a Restoration comedy.
I love the English language, it has words that can thrill, impassion, inspire and explain. I would recommend to you John Aubrey's 'Brief Lives' and having an open mind.

 

[girlbug2]

That number 9 on Marginal's list: does it refer to attempts at bribery?

 

[Tez3]

That number 9 on Marginal's list: does it refer to attempts at bribery?

I don't understand 1 or 2 either and 5 is just odd.

 

[Cirdan]

Imagine joining say, a gun club and when you arrive at the shooting range the instructor recites a text on how to build a better world trough markmanship. :lol:

Or in ice skating, mountaineering or simply chopping wood. Why not? Those activities can be used as much for self improvement as MA, can they not?

 

[chungdokwan123]

When I was studying at university, an ancient place of learning whch was founded in February 1495 giving it plenty of time to consider the subject of writing, I was taught that one should write clearly and concisely, with passion if one wished but always with clarity.

Perhaps the alleged lack of clarity is but a lack of comprehension skill on behalf of the reader? Frankly, I'm a bit taken aback in that I've never received such a complaint before. Perhaps I should start crafting my responses in German, which is my second language, in that I cannot seem to express myself competently in English.

Your "ancient" university training is superseded, in the context of age of content, by any knowledge one might receive from, for example.....the Holy Bible. It is indeed far older than your university. Therefore, if you are attempting to establish for yourself a pedigree of sorts based on an ancient source of knowledge......that places you far above the great unwashed masses......you just lost.

I'm afraid you may think you are writing poetically and even 'flowery' but sadly you are not. You are making a very common mistake of using 'big words' to explain something that should be writen plainly and therefore without ambiguity. Your writing far from being pleasant is conceited and open to misunderstandings. Some sentences make no sense whatsoever I'm afraid.

I'm far from perfect. I do make mistakes.....although I typically don't make quite so many grammar and punctuation errors as is contained in the preceding quote of yours. Honestly, I wouldn't have deigned to point that out under normal circumstances.....I prefer a bit of humility for myself......as opposed to the denigration you wish to cast upon me personally.

Hell, I thought we were discussing something more important.

You may be copying 18th century writers but they were only writing as was common then complete with, to them, slang words and phrases in the style of the times. If they were writing today they would write as we do. If you did we'd understand you.

I'm copying no one.....you are suggesting plagiarism. I simply form my thoughts into expressions based on the vocabulary I happen to possess. If that then renders me an enigma, a person completely devoid of rational thought and taking the form of a bumbling, sputtering idiot......then so be it.

"I stand at the brink of digression concerning the topic at hand. I find myself in what appears to be a singular minority regarding my thoughts on the importance of our tenets"

I'm sorry, this sentence is nonsense and shows great conceit on your part, a competent wordsmith will phrase it using good English and grammar so that it doesn't end up sounding as if from a character in a Restoration comedy.

.......and the ad hominem rears its ugly head again. Conceit? You display your ignorance in a rather profound manner. Let's see if I can "dumb it down" for you a bit. "I quit.......I stand alone......I lose."

If such a sentiment signals "conceit" to you, then some introspection regarding your skills of comprehension is in order.

I seem to have stumbled upon yet another forum wherein some of the participants are more interested in verbal jousting that is completely detached from the established topic.

Therefore, I shan't burden you any longer with my "lack of clarity", my "plagiarism", my "nonsense", and my "conceit".

Good day.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps the alleged lack of clarity is but a lack of comprehension skill on behalf of the reader? Frankly, I'm a bit taken aback in that I've never received such a complaint before. Perhaps I should start crafting my responses in German, which is my second language, in that I cannot seem to express myself competently in English.

Your "ancient" university training is superseded, in the context of age of content, by any knowledge one might receive from, for example.....the Holy Bible. It is indeed far older than your university. Therefore, if you are attempting to establish for yourself a pedigree of sorts based on an ancient source of knowledge......that places you far above the great unwashed masses......you just lost.

I'm far from perfect. I do make mistakes.....although I typically don't make quite so many grammar and punctuation errors as is contained in the preceding quote of yours. Honestly, I wouldn't have deigned to point that out under normal circumstances.....I prefer a bit of humility for myself......as opposed to the denigration you wish to cast upon me personally.

Hell, I thought we were discussing something more important.

I'm copying no one.....you are suggesting plagiarism. I simply form my thoughts into expressions based on the vocabulary I happen to possess. If that then renders me an enigma, a person completely devoid of rational thought and taking the form of a bumbling, sputtering idiot......then so be it.

.......and the ad hominem rears its ugly head again. Conceit? You display your ignorance in a rather profound manner. Let's see if I can "dumb it down" for you a bit. "I quit.......I stand alone......I lose."

If such a sentiment signals "conceit" to you, then some introspection regarding your skills of comprehension is in order.

I seem to have stumbled upon yet another forum wherein some of the participants are more interested in verbal jousting that is completely detached from the established topic.

Therefore, I shan't burden you any longer with my "lack of clarity", my "plagiarism", my "nonsense", and my "conceit".

Good day.

Throwing your dummy in the corner eh? Another conceit.


Ah, the Bible or do you mean my Torah?

Actually I didn't mention plagiarism, that's your thoughts not mine.

If no one understands what you mean or you come across as thinking you are better than anyone else because your beliefs make you so that's not our fault, yours alone. Sporting well worn cliches during your martial arts training doesn't make you a good person.

If you chose to write in such an affected way you cannot blame people if they are amused. Affectation and perceived superiority are the mark of a poor scholar.

I'm so pleased you dumbed things down for me, it amused me as does your indignation. It shows you cannot live by your tenets.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Throwing your dummy in the corner eh? Another conceit.

If I were to continue the attempt to debate with a someone who displays himself to be a troll, then I would agree with your characterization of "conceit".

Ah, the Bible or do you mean my Torah?

I greatly admire the Torah.

Actually I didn't mention plagiarism, that's your thoughts not mine.

"You may be copying 18th century writers........"

Plagiarism--1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

Since you didn't actually mention it, I'll just accept it as a veiled accusation.

If no one understands what you mean or you come across as thinking you are better than anyone else because your beliefs make you so that's not our fault, yours alone. Sporting well worn cliches during your martial arts training doesn't make you a good person.

You seem to be the lone complainant here.

If you chose to write in such an affected way you cannot blame people if they are amused. Affectation and perceived superiority are the mark of a poor scholar.

Then I need not worry about the application of your perception. I'm admittedly no scholar and I do not perceive myself to be superior in any way.

I'm so pleased you dumbed things down for me, it amused me as does your indignation. It shows you cannot live by your tenets.

On the contrary.....I'm ending this discussion because I do not want to be drawn into exhibiting negative feeling, thereby attempting to remain above the proverbial "poop-slinging". There's no indignation on my part, but perhaps a feeling more akin to dismay, to disappointment, in that the discourse has taken such a non-productive turn.

You may "last-word" me if you wish.

Good day.

 

[Tez3]

If I were to continue the attempt to debate with a someone who displays himself to be a troll, then I would agree with your characterization of "conceit".

I greatly admire the Torah.

Plagiarism--1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

Since you didn't actually mention it, I'll just accept it as a veiled accusation.
You seem to be the lone complainant here.

Then I need not worry about the application of your perception. I'm admittedly no scholar and I do not perceive myself to be superior in any way.

On the contrary.....I'm ending this discussion because I do not want to be drawn into exhibiting negative feeling, thereby attempting to remain above the proverbial "poop-slinging". There's no indignation on my part, but perhaps a feeling more akin to dismay, to disappointment, in that the discourse has taken such a non-productive turn.

You may "last-word" me if you wish.

Good day.

Being Jewish and female how was I ever not going to have the last word!

The negativity was coming from your side when you patronised the good people on MT. I like the people here, I often don't agree with things posted as they often don't agree with me but always it's honest discussion not lecturing from a superior stand point. I don't see why I should sit and read your posts sneering at us all without commenting and disagreeing with you. You were even throwing the American constitution at fellow Americans at one point.

I wouldn't have said at all you were plagiarising anyone, you were apeing them, it came across as a patronising affectation.

One should always accuse someone you don't have an answer for of being a troll. It saves so much bother.

We all have our own mores, values and codes of ethics, that we train martial arts without using catch phrases and cliches does not make us lesser people or have lower standards of behaviour. That you chose to doesn't make you superior.

 

[granfire]

Being Jewish and female how was I ever not going to have the last word!

The negativity was coming from your side when you patronised the good people on MT. I like the people here, I often don't agree with things posted as they often don't agree with me but always it's honest discussion not lecturing from a superior stand point. I don't see why I should sit and read your posts sneering at us all without commenting and disagreeing with you. You were even throwing the American constitution at fellow Americans at one point.

I wouldn't have said at all you were plagiarising anyone, you were apeing them, it came across as a patronising affectation.

One should always accuse someone you don't have an answer for of being a troll. It saves so much bother.

We all have our own mores, values and codes of ethics, that we train martial arts without using catch phrases and cliches does not make us lesser people or have lower standards of behaviour. That you chose to doesn't make you superior.

You crack me up!

 

[Cirdan]

You seem to be the lone complainant here.

Well your posts do come across as the somewhat pompous writings of an induvidual with an inflated opinion of himself. Just didn`t see the need to chime in on this since I prefer to stick to the topic at hand. However you might concider listening to Tez` words, your tone can really make you hard to take serious.

 

[girlbug2]

Imagine joining say, a gun club and when you arrive at the shooting range the instructor recites a text on how to build a better world trough markmanship. :lol:

?

Well they do call Colt 45s "peacemakers". You may be on to something!