What Do The Tenets of Taekwondo Have to Do With Hate?

[dancingalone]

In everything I've ever read about what constitutes the pure martial art aspects of TKD.......there is included a philosophical aspect that seeks to embody in us positive characteristics........and HATE is not and cannot be one of them. Therefore, to both sides of the debate, if HATE in any way forms the basis of your arguments, especially if you claim to be a participant in the "art", your points are moot from the first word.

This new thread seemed appropriate instead of sidetracking the sport TKD thread. I thought chungdokwan123 made an interesting point and I thought it would be good for further discussion.

Regardless of whether one "hates" sport TKD or not, let's consider his point that you cannot be a taekwondoist if you hate. Is that necessarily true? We all have negative emotions from time to time: sadness, greed, anger, and yes, hate. Obviously some of us feel these more strongly than others, perhaps even to the point of excess or loss of control.

We should all strive to be better people, to show kindness and patience to others despite any notion of warrant. But if we don't manage to be perfect paragons of virtue or even if we choose to let a negative emotion win for a time, does that necessarily contradict the tenets of taekwondo?

I learned the tenets of taekwondo as Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control, Indomitable Spirit.

Where does it say one cannot hate? Self Control, perhaps? Is this debateable?

As a further discussion point, where is the balance in all of this? Yin and Yang or Um and Yang. One cannot exist without the other and it seems too ascetic to deny oneself everything deemed 'negative'.

 

[granfire]

Self control vs hate, LOL


'Hate' is a grossly overused word. Most often the emotion does not reach past a strong dislike. Drama.


Or energy, misdirected.

One has to be ultimately clear that such negative emotions only affect one self and hardly ever in a constructive way.

back to the tenets, they the essence of what makes tough situation endurable. Positive, strong aspects.

The ITA has added a couple more to the seven we already had, strength, wisdom, added to Honor, courtesy, integrity, Self-control, perseverance, courage and community. Hate and anger usually clouds one's judgment.

 

[Twin Fist]

aint nothing wrong with hate.

 

[Earl Weiss]

aint nothing wrong with hate.

Agreed. I think plenty of people can embody the tenets of TKD, Courtesy, Integrity as set codified by General Choi, from other historical sources, (all systems calling themselves TKD may not adopt these tenets, yet in certain circumstances (many Americans who may follow the temnets very likely hae Osama Bin Laden) hate something or someone.

I like to think I embody the tenets, yet I hate the taste of Broccoli. The degree of hate for the taste of broccoli and Olympic Sparring are about the same. For those who like the taste of Broccoli, carry on.

 

[MBuzzy]

Personally, I don't feel that hate has any place in the martial arts - or for that matter in most of daily life. Hate leads to a lack of self control and a disregard for other people. To me, I have no desire to really hate anyone. There are certainly some people that I really don't like and some things that I really don't like, but I wouldn't say that it reaches into hate in any way. Another thing that hate breeds, which has no place in martial arts is temper. A bad temper will do nothing but make yourself and those around you unhappy and miserable. Call me an idealist, but I strive to be happy myself and to see those around me happy.

But, many people are perfectly happy with their hate and that is their perogative. I wouldn't disqualify them from the practice of martial arts, but I would have serious issues with entrusting the knowledge of how to injure or kill others to a person with no self control and a bad temper.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm big on balance. Too much of a good thing, like medicine for example, can be equally bad for your health. I don't look upon hate as something to be always avoided - it's an unavoidable part of the human condition. If we say we do not hate, it's only likely that we've never had sufficient stimulus to make us hate.

Mr. Weiss gave a good example of bin Lauden as a possible figure where it may be 'valid' to hate him. I don't think it incompatible at all for someone versed in the Tenets nonetheless to harbor some strong grudge or dislike in their heart.

but I would have serious issues with entrusting the knowledge of how to injure or kill others to a person with no self control and a bad temper.

I agree to a point. I recall from some of your previous posts that you also have some experience in aikido like myself. I've always been bemused that the founder of aikido was by his own account an angry violent man when younger, and I often ponder what the practice of karate was like before it became almost universally taught as a "Do", rather than as a pure fighting system.

 

[MBuzzy]

Balance is good - extremes are bad. Call me a buddhist...

True, I have a bit of aikido experience, the gentle art. But I believe the even O'Sensei would agree that anger and temper won't help you win a confrontation.

But there was certainly a time when Karate was a pure combat fighting art, although I believe that many of their practices were designed to instill a sense of calm and preparedness, even during combat - your mind is more clear if you are able to keep your temper in place and control the release of adrenaline...

 

[MBuzzy]

hehe, and SOME temper and just a little self control can be ok...

 

[granfire]

But, many people are perfectly happy with their hate and that is their perogative.

That is actually quiet funny. Hate and happy in one sentence.

But seriously when you analyse it closer you might find that 'hate' shifts control from yourself to the object of your hate. Or it's used as excuse to behave badly.

Bin Laden for example. Poster boy for hate. His hate of the US caused the whole trouble. largely founded on rumors, half truth and outright lies. I am sure, he is perfectly fine with his hate, too.

From where I am looking at, hate really does not mix well, actually with civilized life in general.

hate, IMHO is an emotion that takes too much energy.

 

[ATC]

Well if you live by the tenants then you can hate just as long as you don't act on that hate. The tenants should bind you from letting that hate get the best of you.

Some schools also have a set of commandments that help support or strengthens the tenets. I know we do. They may vary from school to school but they go something like this.

1.Be loyal to your country.
2.Be a good son or daughter to your parents.
3.Be faithful to your spouse.
4.Be on good terms with your brothers and sisters.
5.Be loyal to your friends.
6.Be respectful to your elders.
7.Respect and trust your teachers.
8.Never take a life unjustly.
9.help build a more peaceful world.
10.Always finish what you start.

These are not our actual commandments but they are pretty close. I have to apologize for not know the exact terms of ours. That's pretty bad of me as we test the color belts on this regularly. I have gotten 1 or 2 worded incorrectly.

"Bad teacher bad".

 

[granfire]

Well if you live by the tenants then you can hate just as long as you don't act on that hate. The tenants should bind you from letting that hate get the best of you.

Some schools also have a set of commandments that help support or strengthens the tenets. I know we do. They may vary from school to school but they go something like this.

1.Be loyal to your country.
2.Be a good son or daughter to your parents.
3.Be faithful to your spouse.
4.Be on good terms with your brothers and sisters.
5.Be loyal to your friends.
6.Be respectful to your elders.
7.Respect and trust your teachers.
8.Never take a life unjustly.
9.help build a more peaceful world.
10.Always finish what you start.

These are not our actual commandments but they are pretty close. I have to apologize for not know the exact terms of ours. That's pretty bad of me as we test the color belts on this regularly. I have gotten 1 or 2 worded incorrectly.

"Bad teacher bad".

Well, it doesn't state you had to be a good teacher!

 

[miguksaram]

It has pretty much been said, but allow me to repeat the idea in my own words. 'Hate', and 'Love' for that matter, have been overused to a point that their meaning has been watered down. We use 'hate' freely when we dislike something but at what point does it begin to lose its impactive meaning? 'I hate sparring' 'I hate a pedofiles.' Is the dislike for sparring equal to that of disliking someone who rapes kids? I don't think so. Using the term Love is the same thing. Do I hold the meaning of love for pasta the same as the love for my wife? Not at all. Yet, I do find myself using the term quite loosely.

Does the term 'Hate' have anything to do with the Tenets? I don't feel it does. I practice Courtesy, Integrity, Self Control, Perserverance, and Indomitable Spirit. I can still hate a pedofile without breaking any of these tenents. These tenets describe how I should act, not how I should feel.

 

[Nomad]

Seems to me that if there is a tenet or precept or statement against hate, it's there as a reminder of what to strive for.

No one enters a philosophy of any kind if they already embody all aspects of it; otherwise why would you bother since there's nothing to work towards in terms of self-improvement?

A statement like "Treat everyone with respect" or "Never act from anger" to give a couple of examples clearly acknowledge that sometimes we are inclined to do exactly what the statements warn against, and are a simple reminder that we should seek a different way to act/react. Same thing with hate.

 

[granfire]

Seems to me that if there is a tenet or precept or statement against hate, it's there as a reminder of what to strive for.

No one enters a philosophy of any kind if they already embody all aspects of it; otherwise why would you bother since there's nothing to work towards in terms of self-improvement?

A statement like "Treat everyone with respect" or "Never act from anger" to give a couple of examples clearly acknowledge that sometimes we are inclined to do exactly what the statements warn against, and are a simple reminder that we should seek a different way to act/react. Same thing with hate.

Well, of course rules and guidelines are put forth to change curren behavior.

 

[Joab]

I'm a Christian, Christians arn't supposed to hate. I still do hate at times, but I try not to, and when I do I confess it and repent, and hope to not hate again. I like the words "righteous anger" better than hate. If somebody is trying to kill me they are going to make my wife a widow and my sisters lose a brother, it ain't going to happen!

That's the way I try to look at things anyway.

 

[Marginal]

It's possible to disagree, even disagree strongly without hating an issue or the people who hold opposing opinions.

http://www.comdo.com/reference02.html

Taekwon-Do students should attempt to practice the following elements of courtesy to build up their noble character and to conduct the training in an orderly manner as well.

1) To promote the spirit of mutual concessions
2) To be ashamed of one's vices, contempting those of others
3) To be polite to one another
4) To encourage the sense of justice and humanity
5) To distinguish instructor from student, senior from junior, and elder from younger
6) To behave oneself according to etiquette
7) To respect others' possessions
8) To handle matters with fairness and sincerity
9) To refrain from giving or accepting a gift when in doubt​

IMO, trying to see things from the other person's point of view (#1) helps diffuse a lot of the hard feelings.

 

[chungdokwan123]

I like to think I embody the tenets, yet I hate the taste of Broccoli. The degree of hate for the taste of broccoli and Olympic Sparring are about the same. For those who like the taste of Broccoli, carry on.

Interesting......establishing a parallel between one's dislike of broccoli and a philosophical divide that can only serve to damage a very respectable art.

I just hate that.

 

[chungdokwan123]

This new thread seemed appropriate instead of sidetracking the sport TKD thread. I thought chungdokwan123 made an interesting point and I thought it would be good for further discussion.

Me thinks I've created a philosophical poop storm.

Regardless of whether one "hates" sport TKD or not, let's consider his point that you cannot be a taekwondoist if you hate. Is that necessarily true? We all have negative emotions from time to time: sadness, greed, anger, and yes, hate. Obviously some of us feel these more strongly than others, perhaps even to the point of excess or loss of control.

granfire stated very interestingly that "hate" seldom rises to the level of what that negative characteristic truly embodies......the word is more often than not used as a colloquialism.

We should all strive to be better people, to show kindness and patience to others despite any notion of warrant. But if we don't manage to be perfect paragons of virtue or even if we choose to let a negative emotion win for a time, does that necessarily contradict the tenets of taekwondo?

My point was that I see division.......among "sport" oriented practitioners versus what might be called a more traditional side of what is proclaimed to be the same coin. The division extends to other areas, as in, for example, musical forms.......or camouflage belts. ITF or WTF?

If irreconcilable differences are indeed the order of the day, then perhaps a divorce is in order?

The major reason for my concern is that TKD is becoming ever more popular. The opportunities for misrepresentation of the more important core aspects of the art can only increase. Bedrock principles are important, and when they are neglected.......things such as "hate" and other negative traits can permeate an individual's practice.

I learned the tenets of taekwondo as Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control, Indomitable Spirit.

Where does it say one cannot hate? Self Control, perhaps? Is this debateable?

Taeguek Six - Represents water which is liquid and formless, never loses its nature, and always follows the path of least resistance. We are to be like water in our attempt to overcome difficulties and hardships.


Tenets aside.....is this perhaps an applicable example? Frankly, however, I do believe that the self control tenet makes the point.

As a further discussion point, where is the balance in all of this? Yin and Yang or Um and Yang. One cannot exist without the other and it seems too ascetic to deny oneself everything deemed 'negative'.

It would be impossible to separate one's self from everything negative.....we're human. It's just that I see so much contention in a sphere of life where there should be more attempts at unity.....then again, perhaps my naivete has gotten the better of me?

I'm truly interested in folks' opinions on the matter.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Interesting......establishing a parallel between one's dislike of broccoli and a philosophical divide that can only serve to damage a very respectable art.

I just hate that.

Oh well, that's why restaurants have menus. Lots of foods are respected and even good for you. That doesn't mean you should like them or repect them. are the respected good for you foods damaged by those who don't like them?

 

[chungdokwan123]

Oh well, that's why restaurants have menus. Lots of foods are respected and even good for you. That doesn't mean you should like them or repect them. are the respected good for you foods damaged by those who don't like them?

The saga continues?

Pardon me.....I didn't realize there was such a philosophical aspect to to broccoli.