Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

Midnight-shadow

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Pretty much this. The terms are so arbitrary and stupid that we may as well abandon them.

In the eyes of most MMA fighters, anything that isn't meta or mainstream in the pro fighting scene is considered TMA and therefore rubbish. It's quite hilarious actually when they claim arts like Muay Thai are modern fighting arts when they clearly have no idea where those arts originated from.
 

Tony Dismukes

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In the eyes of most MMA fighters, anything that isn't meta or mainstream in the pro fighting scene is considered TMA and therefore rubbish. It's quite hilarious actually when they claim arts like Muay Thai are modern fighting arts when they clearly have no idea where those arts originated from.
I don't believe I've encountered any MMA fighter claiming that Muay Thai is a particularly "modern" system. Who have you seen making that claim?
 

Midnight-shadow

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I don't believe I've encountered any MMA fighter claiming that Muay Thai is a particularly "modern" system. Who have you seen making that claim?

Idiots on youtube. I know, I spend far too much time on there which is probably bad for my sanity.
 
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Jedmus

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Thanks for all the replies everyone, by the sounds of it it's just people (from both sides) wanting to believe their art is superior. I understand this is likely the minority of people though. Also, I'm glad this got a good response rather than more people just throwing their opinions around
 

Paul_D

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What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight.
The clue to the answer is in your own post. People say something is “ineffective”. What you have to say is that a) is ineffective in scenario 1. The problem is that people fail to understand this, and assume if something fails under 1) scenario it fails under all scenarios.

e.g.
Craig does Krav Maga, He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works. He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”. Craig decides to become an MMA fighter. Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications. Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet. ;)

Or you have the opposite problem, where people think that because what they do works in there scenario, it is effective full stop.

e.g.
Billy is an MMA fan and trains at his local MMA gym. He knows that triangle chokes work. He knows this because he does them every week in training and his partners tap out. They work, he knows they work, end of conversation as far as Billy is concerned. Sarah is an SD instructor. She knows that if Billy tries to triangle choke someone out side the Chip Shop on a Friday night the guys mates will stomp Billy’s head flat.

Sarah explains therefore that whilst triangle chokes are effective in scenario a) (billy’s training) they are ineffective n scenario b) (outside the chip shop). Billy is unable to compute. He knows they work, he does them every week and his partners tap because they work. Therefore they will work in scenario a) all the way though to scenario z), and nothing Sarah or anyone else tells Billy will convince him otherwise.
:asshat:

Everything “works” and everything is effective, in the right context. But effectiveness can never be divorced from the criteria being used to judge its effectiveness. The problem is that some people cannot and will not ever understand that.
;)
 

jobo

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The clue to the answer is in your own post. People say something is “ineffective”. What you have to say is that a) is ineffective in scenario 1. The problem is that people fail to understand this, and assume if something fails under 1) scenario it fails under all scenarios.

e.g.
Craig does Krav Maga, He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works. He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”. Craig decides to become an MMA fighter. Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications. Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet. ;)

Or you have the opposite problem, where people think that because what they do works in there scenario, it is effective full stop.

e.g.
Billy is an MMA fan and trains at his local MMA gym. He knows that triangle chokes work. He knows this because he does them every week in training and his partners tap out. They work, he knows they work, end of conversation as far as Billy is concerned. Sarah is an SD instructor. She knows that if Billy tries to triangle choke someone out side the Chip Shop on a Friday night the guys mates will stomp Billy’s head flat.

Sarah explains therefore that whilst triangle chokes are effective in scenario a) (billy’s training) they are ineffective n scenario b) (outside the chip shop). Billy is unable to compute. He knows they work, he does them every week and his partners tap because they work. Therefore they will work in scenario a) all the way though to scenario z), and nothing Sarah or anyone else tells Billy will convince him otherwise.
:asshat:

Everything “works” and everything is effective, in the right context. But effectiveness can never be divorced from the criteria being used to judge its effectiveness. The problem is that some people cannot and will not ever understand that.
;)
agree, its,much the same with bjj take down, do that to some one on the street, and you might find they kick you in the head very hard, and then continue kicking you, you don't get up to have another go
 

Tez3

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agree, its,much the same with bjj take down, do that to some one on the street, and you might find they kick you in the head very hard, and then continue kicking you, you don't get up to have another go

Takedowns can be successful 'on the street'... when they are done by police officers ( the operative words is officers though not an officer on their own unless there is only the person being arrested present) who are arresting someone who refuses to stand still.

Craig does Krav Maga, He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works. He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”. Craig decides to become an MMA fighter. Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications. Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet.

and there's another lesson to be learnt here, if you want to be an MMA fighter you go to an MMA gym and train properly, a good coach would have stopped bad habits such as kicking men in the nuts. No promoter in the UK would take a fighter on their show who had more than two or three disqualifications so the moral of the story is learn your trade properly.

A rear naked choke put on with one arm ( your arm around their neck with your hand grasping the back of your own neck), as taught in riot control in the military works ( I didn't say this out loud btw) well everywhere, using the person's body as a shield is good, don't use your dominant arm, leave that for your weapon of choice. It works, trust me.
 

drop bear

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The clue to the answer is in your own post. People say something is “ineffective”. What you have to say is that a) is ineffective in scenario 1. The problem is that people fail to understand this, and assume if something fails under 1) scenario it fails under all scenarios.

e.g.
Craig does Krav Maga, He knows that kicking men in the bollocks works. He knows because he has done it in training and in “the street”. Craig decides to become an MMA fighter. Three years later Craig has record on no wins, no losses, and 17 disqualifications. Craig cannot understand why he isn’t UFC Champ yet. ;)

Or you have the opposite problem, where people think that because what they do works in there scenario, it is effective full stop.

e.g.
Billy is an MMA fan and trains at his local MMA gym. He knows that triangle chokes work. He knows this because he does them every week in training and his partners tap out. They work, he knows they work, end of conversation as far as Billy is concerned. Sarah is an SD instructor. She knows that if Billy tries to triangle choke someone out side the Chip Shop on a Friday night the guys mates will stomp Billy’s head flat.

Sarah explains therefore that whilst triangle chokes are effective in scenario a) (billy’s training) they are ineffective n scenario b) (outside the chip shop). Billy is unable to compute. He knows they work, he does them every week and his partners tap because they work. Therefore they will work in scenario a) all the way though to scenario z), and nothing Sarah or anyone else tells Billy will convince him otherwise.
:asshat:

Everything “works” and everything is effective, in the right context. But effectiveness can never be divorced from the criteria being used to judge its effectiveness. The problem is that some people cannot and will not ever understand that.
;)

If someone kicked me in the nuts at the chip shop. why don't my friends stomp his head flat?
 

JowGaWolf

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I haven't really seen much of it in real life. It's seems to be a staple online, though.
Same here. I think the argument is more common among TMA and MMA fan boys. I've yet to meet some who trains MMA and voices the same perception.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I haven't really seen much of it in real life. It's seems to be a staple online, though.
Agreed. The times I've ended up in a group (outside MA, usually) with someone who trained/competed in MMA, we had more in common than most of the rest of the group. Never had a problem with folks from another style, approach, or camp, except online.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think that there's an important distinction to be made between "hate" and what are often just fundamental differences of opinion. Saying someone's just a "hater" is a way to dismiss critical feedback. In other words, people aren't usually "haters." They're just called that so their opinions can be dismissed out of hand.

Example:
A: "My MA is the bee's knees. Everyone's talking about it down at the local five and dime."
B: "You can't use uncooked pasta as a weapon. That's just... no. That's not okay. No."
A: "You're just a hater."

It's a shame when that happens, because it creates a cascading effect similar to the emotional wake that follows a divorce. When a couple gets a divorce, the friends get divorced, too. In the same way, when someone declares their opinion to be The Opinion and dismisses anyone who disagrees as a hater, people feel like they need to pick a side. We see it over and over around here.
I think Steve and I are a good example of another part of this. I don't think we disagree nearly as much as it looks like in discussions. We have some fundamental differences of opinion, but they are not major differences, and there's far more we agree on. In a forum, we look diametrically opposed. Sit us together, and we'd have a lot to disagree on, and a lot to agree on. We might even step on the mats to compare techniques, or even to try our skills against each other (I'm betting Steve wins that one). And it would all be with respect - a respect that doesn't show up as clearly on a forum.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That's all fine and dandy, but you can't make the argument that kata and solo drills are similar just because your particular style does it. The vast majority of traditional styles DON'T do it, and perform kata that bear little resemblance to their fighting forms.
And you can't make the argument that they are different just because a specific style (or several) don't. The forms I've trained in, taught, and developed, used the same movement and power generation as the application.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The term TMA may mean that you don't have intention to create/mix something from other MA systems. The following short form is not traditional but modern creation.

Will you call yourself a TMA guy or MMA guy if you are a wrestler (TMA), but you also use/mix striking skill from other TMA styles? IMO, if you do, you are a MMA guy yourself.

I'm not sure I agree with that definition. I consider myself TMA, though I borrow movements freely. That's how our art was created, and pretty much how all arts formed.
 

Hanzou

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And you can't make the argument that they are different just because a specific style (or several) don't. The forms I've trained in, taught, and developed, used the same movement and power generation as the application.

I have yet to see a traditional Karate or Kung Fu system that performs kata/forms the way you describe. What system are you talking about in particular?
 

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