MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not "used" in judo at all..............
..............but some people teach it.

Do you do why it's not used in Judo?

 

[elder999]

Do you do why it's not used in Judo?

Most people don't train with it....it might, as you said, wind up as a push against the side of the neck during randori-I'm sure I can find tai otoshi being performed in contest this way, somehwere- but a blatant throat grab might easily be interpreted as trying to intentionally injure the opponent, and result in shido...or even disqualification....

 

[Hanzou]

You mean the Judo that people, still alive and training, complain has been too sportified by inclusion in the Olympics who then, after complaining about the Olympics, continue thence to teach Judo as they were taught, in direct line back to turn of the century? That Judo?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Well that's kind of my point; There's a struggle going on in Judo right now where you have one side trying to keep the art alive, and the other side completely neutering it in favor of the sport because the Olympic committee is such a powerful force within Judo.

Again, that's why Bjj has the advantage over Judo, and why its set to eclipse Judo in a couple of years. People are tired of being chastised for doing double leg takedowns, or leg locks in the dojo, and would rather migrate over to a Bjj school where they can learn what they want to learn without an overbearing body breathing down their necks. My Judo instructor teaches at my Bjj gym for that very reason.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well that's kind of my point; There's a struggle going on in Judo right now where you have one side trying to keep the art alive, and the other side completely neutering it in favor of the sport because the Olympic committee is such a powerful force within Judo.

Again, that's why Bjj has the advantage over Judo, and why its set to eclipse Judo in a couple of years. People are tired of being chastised for doing double leg takedowns, or leg locks in the dojo, and would rather migrate over to a Bjj school where they can learn what they want to learn without an overbearing body breathing down their necks. My Judo instructor teaches at my Bjj gym for that very reason.

On the other hand, you have a large segment of the BJJ community (possibly a majority) neglecting takedowns, leglocks, and striking defense because they are training primarily in accordance with IBJJF competition rules. I don't think we're in a great position to throw stones regarding the influence of the sport on the martial art.

 

[Hanzou]

On the other hand, you have a large segment of the BJJ community (possibly a majority) neglecting takedowns, leglocks, and striking defense because they are training primarily in accordance with IBJJF competition rules. I don't think we're in a great position to throw stones regarding the influence of the sport on the martial art.

Well takedowns and leglocks are all legal in Bjj competition, so I don't know why people wouldn't be training them. It's quite a different situation than in Judo where people are being trained to not even grab pants anymore because its a foul.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well takedowns and leglocks are all legal in Bjj competition, so I don't know why people wouldn't be training them. It's quite a different situation than in Judo where people are being trained to not even grab pants anymore because its a foul.

Takedowns are legal, but they only score 2 points and guard pulling isn't penalized. Practicing takedowns can be exhausting and painful, so since it's not necessary for success in the sport many BJJ players don't bother.

As far as leg locks go, the rule against leg reaping takes away the most dominant control position for leg locking. The rule against twisting leg locks takes away the most powerful lower body submissions. Toe holds, knee bars, and calf slicers are only allowed at higher belt levels. As a result of all this, many BJJ players neglect leg locks in general and the most effective leg lock positions in particular.

As far as striking defense goes, I've seen plenty of folks in the BJJ discussions over at reddit (r/bjj) who seem convinced that is irrelevant unless you are training for MMA.

Doing sport competition doesn't mean you have to neglect the martial aspects of the art, but there's no denying that many people do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well takedowns and leglocks are all legal in Bjj competition, so I don't know why people wouldn't be training them. It's quite a different situation than in Judo where people are being trained to not even grab pants anymore because its a foul.

The "grab pants" is also illegal in Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) for the following reasons:

- If your opponent is a girl, you may tear her pants apart or pull her pants off in the public.
- If you dig fingers into your opponent's fresh, you will leave a big bruise mark after that.
- If you can grab the leg, why grab the pants?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As far as striking defense goes, I've seen plenty of folks in the BJJ discussions over at reddit (r/bjj) who seem convinced that is irrelevant unless you are training for MMA.

I believe the "striking defense" should be treated as the highest priority in any grapplers training. It makes no sense that your opponent can knock you down before you can take him down. If a grappling instructor sends his guys to boxing gym and test whether a boxer can knock down a grappler (before he gets taken down), or a grappler can take down a boxer (before he gets knock down). If you test this 15 rounds daily, after a year, you will develop good experience. Of course it may be better to test this against MT guys when kicking is also involved.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I believe the "striking defense" should be treated as the highest priority in any grapplers training. It makes no sense that your opponent can knock you down before you can take him down. If a grappling instructor sends his guys to boxing gym and test whether a boxer can knock down a grappler (before he gets taken down), or a grappler can take down a boxer (before he gets knock down). If you test this 15 rounds daily, after a year, you will develop good experience. Of course it may be better to test this against MT guys when kicking is also involved.

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This is whole point of traditional karate. The opponent is stopped dead in his tracks.
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K=MAN's karate style is particularly apropos because his style specializes in the bunkai for close quarter fighting and integrated grappling maneuvers within such. Furthermore, should K_MAN get a hold of you, he explained to me that his bunkai is designed to force a predetermined response which would necessarily crimp the versatility ingrained in BJJ techniques, should he succeed.

 

[ShotoNoob]

ON THE OTHER HAND.
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On the other hand, a striker never wants to go to GNP. Hesitating or equivocating against a skilled grappler is asking to lose in nasty fashion via such.
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Simple statement, hug import....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Doing sport competition doesn't mean you have to neglect the martial aspects of the art, but there's no denying that many people do.

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How one decides to train the art, doesn't define the art. The art defines the art. Now into the cycle, an inescapable one for the serious practitioner, of defining exactly the art.
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Will keep your T going indefinately....

 

[ShotoNoob]

On the other hand, you have a large segment of the BJJ community (possibly a majority) neglecting takedowns, leglocks, and striking defense because they are training primarily in accordance with IBJJF competition rules. I don't think we're in a great position to throw stones regarding the influence of the sport on the martial art.

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Again, perfectly put. Martial arts in application are first for self defense. If practitioners wish to move away from self defense to other emphasis, that's their call. Then at some point, their stylized approach can not be used to gauge the efficacy of the system as a martial art.
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Quite frankly, this is the big reason Machida's karate-based MMA style has come up short against top-ranked UFC competitors, IMO. Precisely the same for Wonderboy Thompson loss against the "immortal" Matt Brown.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Which is the point made about evolving. Kickboxing is absorbing new concepts.

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Well again, we know we can perpetuate the blog., T's, etc. Maybe kickboxing HAS to absorb new concepts because of poor quality of the practice (just a mentioned for Judo, etc.), and because of it's rudimentary skill set.

For karate to flourish it needs to as well.

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Again, a popular notion among the sport fighting / MMA work. Or those that approach karate as a year-long program of physically centered training.
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K-MAN's example, he dug deeper into the traditional karate style, supplemented with cross-training in separate TMAs. This poses the question of: In TMA, is the evolution in the practitioner's developmen?. OR, is the evolution as Matt Thorton proposes: mixing physical stuff from different martial art styles & practicing physical moves repetitively relying on active sparring and resisting opponents?
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EDIT: One of Matt Thorton's early credentialed martial arts was BJJ. That doesn't surprise me.

 

[Hanzou]

Takedowns are legal, but they only score 2 points and guard pulling isn't penalized. Practicing takedowns can be exhausting and painful, so since it's not necessary for success in the sport many BJJ players don't bother.

I would also argue that the more hunched over stance found in Bjj makes the more upright throws found in Judo nagewaza more difficult to pull off, which is why you don't see them often in competition. It's also why Judo banned (or restricted) the "wrestler" stance in competition.

As far as leg locks go, the rule against leg reaping takes away the most dominant control position for leg locking. The rule against twisting leg locks takes away the most powerful lower body submissions. Toe holds, knee bars, and calf slicers are only allowed at higher belt levels. As a result of all this, many BJJ players neglect leg locks in general and the most effective leg lock positions in particular.

As far as striking defense goes, I've seen plenty of folks in the BJJ discussions over at reddit (r/bjj) who seem convinced that is irrelevant unless you are training for MMA.

Doing sport competition doesn't mean you have to neglect the martial aspects of the art, but there's no denying that many people do.

While leglocks have their restrictions, they're not banned entirely like they are in Judo. That means they're still widely practiced in Bjj, even if in a restricted fashion at the sport schools.

Good luck finding a Judo school that teaches leg locks, much less wrist locks.

I mean don't get me wrong, I think sport Bjj can be a detrimental force, but sport Bjj has not done nearly the amount of damage to Bjj that sport Judo has done to Judo. Not even close.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The gi and no gi may not make much different in the ground game. it makes a big difference in the stand up game. Since a BJJ guy still have to play the stand up game before he can play the ground game, the gi and no gi will affect him as well.

The reason that you can "slow down" your wrestler opponent's attack is because the gi. When you have your hand on your opponent's upper collar lapel, it's very difficult for him to drop down and applies "single leg" on you. When he shoots at your leg, a push on your upper collar lapel grip can stop his forward movement. Since your opponent has to deal with your "grip" before he can apply technique on you, you can "slow him down". In no gi, you can't do this.

Yes and no, almost all classic BJJ takedowns do not utilize lapel holds to initiate a takedown, throw like what you will see in Judo. This is simply because they were utilized in no-holds barred or Vale Tudo where the opponent would not have a gi. So a BJJ practitioner can easily apply their throws and takedowns with or without a gi. Though I will concede that if both people are in a gi handholds can come into play during the takedown process. Still for a BJJ practitioner it is easier to go from gi to no-gi. Same body movement just less to worry about! (ie. chokes, etc) Which again just reinforces the point that it is easier to go from gi to no-gi!

 

[lklawson]

Well that's kind of my point; There's a struggle going on in Judo right now where you have one side trying to keep the art alive, and the other side completely neutering it in favor of the sport because the Olympic committee is such a powerful force within Judo.

Right now? It's been going on since Judo's inclusion as a Competition Sport in the Olympics.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk